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Happy to hear that, Dosakkhayo!
– Different people have different ways of getting into the Path. We are glad that you found a way.
– Yes. The priority is getting to magga phala.Thanks to LayDhammaFollower for his input!
Yes. It is good to ask questions.
– But sometimes, some questions become irrelevant because the basis for asking them is not there.
– Of course, many of your questions have been “legitimate.” The problem is with the last question: “The real question is the following: I have been worried about what if Nibbana is not the final achievement.”
– That question would not come up if one understood the “wider worldview” of the Buddha and how he explained how to stop future suffering. If that worldview is understood, it will automatically become clear WHY that is the final solution.The following question you asked in the first post could be a good start.
“So, the statement of sabba sutta is very meaningful to me. Because it presents the limit of the world. “Sabba Sutta (SN 35.23)”
“Yo, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadeyya: ‘ahametaṁ sabbaṁ paccakkhāya aññaṁ sabbaṁ paññāpessāmī’ti, tassa vācāvatthukamevassa; puṭṭho ca na sampāyeyya, uttariñca vighātaṁ āpajjeyya. Taṁ kissa hetu? Yathā taṁ, bhikkhave, avisayasmin”ti.
translation:
“Mendicants, suppose someone was to say: ‘I’ll reject this all and describe another all.’ They’d have no grounds for that, they’d be stumped by questions, and, in addition, they’d get frustrated. Why is that? Because they’re out of their element.”
(I hope that lal explains the meaning of Pali word avisaya.)” (END OF QUOTE)Let us start with the question you had there. That may help, indeed.
– “avisaya” in this context means “not discernible” or “does not have enough knowledge about.”
– Thus, no one but a Buddha has the necessary knowledge base. That subject is “avisaya” for any human, no matter how intelligent.1. Scientists are making discoveries about the world, But they will never reach the “knowledge base” of a Buddha.
– I discussed that concerning the origin of life (origin of consciousness) in the series on “Origin of Life.”
– Reading that series requires a matching background and enough interest to spend the time reading through. But that may match your background.2. The other point I want to make is regarding the “Sabba Sutta.”
– As explained at the beginning of the sutta, “everything in this world” is included in the six sense faculties and the six types of rupa in the external world.
– When the rebirth process stops at the death of an Arahant, the current hadaya vatthu (with the set of pasada rupa) dies, and no new hadaya vatthu can arise.
– That the “end of the world.” That lifestream would not experience this world of 31 realms anymore. Any birth within the rebirth process is INTRINSICALLY associated with decay and death, i.e., suffering.
– Thus, attaining Arahanthood IS the final solution. What else can be there if the whole world is absent?3. I know that talking about “stopping rebirth” is unsettling to many people.
– That is because of the wrong view and perception of a permanent “me” that has been with us from a timeless beginning.
– On the other hand, if there is a “permanent self/me,” why worry about stopping rebirth? It is best to move forward step by step. P.S. If there is a “permanent self/me,” then it is baseless to worry about losing it at Arahanthood.
– Yet, for some (like you), such issues may be “nagging.” In that case, reviewing the “Origin of Life” could be beneficial to see why Buddha’s worldview has “better explanatory power.”Inputs like yours help keep the website self-consistent and consistent with the Tipitaka. That will make it easier for all to navigate this website. Thank you!
P.S. The website has over 700 posts now. I am thinking about doing some re-organization. Also, many old posts need to be revised.
Thanks, Jorg.
I revised that as:
“Finally, where are these anusaya in “storage”? They get transferred from one hadaya vatthu to the next at the moment of grasping a new existence at the cuti-paṭisandhi moment.”Please let me know if you come across any more. You are doing a good job of scanning!
P.S. Also added a reference post: “Anusaya, Gati, Bhava – Connection to Manomaya Kāya (Gandhabba).” Bullet #6 there explains this in detail.
In my opinion, you need to take a different approach.
You wrote: “The real question is the following: I have been worried about what if Nibbana is not the final achievement.”
That means you have not understood the “wider worldview” of the Buddha.
– If one has understood the process of getting to Nibbana, one would have absolutely no doubts about whether Nibbana is the final achievement.
– That means comprehending the Paticca samuppada processes.1. If you do not have doubts about the rebirth process and the laws of kamma, that is a good starting point. That is why I asked that question earlier too.
– Because the key premise of Buddha Dhamma is that there is a rebirth process involving 31 realms, four of which have unimaginable suffering.
– Paticca Samuppada describes how rebirths in different realms arise, starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara.” That ALWAYS ends up in “bhava paccaya jati” and “jati paccaya jara,marana, soka, ..”, the “whole mass of suffering.”
– There is no jati (birth) without old age and death. Furthermore, there is much suffering even during existence in the lowest four realms.
– Here, avijja is the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.2. My advice is to focus on that instead of Anapanasati.
– Anapanasati can be cultivated ONLY after getting rid of those doubts.
– Those doubts start to go away only when one starts comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– As I pointed out today in another thread, getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is the key to the Sotapanna stage. Together with sakkaya ditthi, two other samyojana (vicikiccha and silabbata paramasa) also break. Vicikiccha includes doubts (such as the one you have) about Buddha’s teachings. Silabbata paramasa is the wrong view that one can attain Nibbana by following rituals.
– Nibbana can be attained only after comprehending the “wider worldview” of the Buddha; there is no need for rituals.3. My apologies for being blunt. In my mind, it is better to be honest, and straightforward.
– I can see that you have a good analytical mind. However, no matter how intelligent one is, until one learns the fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma, there is no chance of significant progress.
– Those fundamentals are the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– I am not sure about your understanding of Paṭicca Samuppāda. You can take a look at the posts in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda” section. But, of course, it is up to you to decide how you want to proceed.“Though, avijja and mana may have relatively more influence on the sense of a “self.”
1. Yes. That is correct.
2. That is the main reason ALL asobhana cetasikas reduce strength as avijja and mana decrease.
– It is the view and perception of “me” and “mine” that lead to ALL defilements (and akusala kamma), i.e., energize all asobhana cetasikas.
– The largest change happens at the Sotapanna stage when one loses the wrong view of “me” by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi. Look at the list of asobhana cetasikas removed by a Sotapanna in your list in the first post. The Buddha said the fraction of defilements left in a Sotapanna compared to an average human is like a small pebble compared to a mountain.2 users thanked author for this post.
Yes. All such cetasika (kama raga, patigha, mana, uddhacca, avijja, as well as rupa raga and arupa raga) lose strength as one gets to Sakadagami and higher stages of Nibbana.
Yes. Your understanding is good.
Let me point to specific places in the sutta, so that others can follow it:
1. The verse you quoted first “Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya” is the beginning of a new section here (labeled 9.1):
“Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta”– There, the Buddha first describes sukha vedana experienced by anariyas (average humans) who attach to kama guna and indulge in sensual pleasures:
“9.1‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.2sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.3iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? 9.4Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. 9.5Katame pañca? 9.6Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, 9.7sotaviññeyyā saddā … 9.8ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … 9.9jivhāviññeyyā rasā … 9.10kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—9.11ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. 9.12Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ mīḷhasukhaṁ puthujjanasukhaṁ anariyasukhaṁ.2. Then, (as you mentioned) the Buddha describes the (Ariya) jhanic sukha experienced by those who attain Ariya jhana via the removal of kama raga anusaya. That starts at 9.13 in the above link:
“9.13‘Na āsevitabbaṁ, na bhāvetabbaṁ, na bahulīkātabbaṁ, bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.14Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.15Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.16Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… 9.17catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.18Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ. 9.19‘Āsevitabbaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ, bahulīkātabbaṁ, na bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.20‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.21sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.22iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.”
– The verse at 9.18: “Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ.” is translated correctly as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening.”
That could be stated a little better as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation of sensual pleasures, the pleasure of release from mental agitation (viveka), the pleasure of getting samma samadhi (away from kāmasukha and attakilamathānuyoga,) the pleasure of awakening.”3. The verse, “Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe’ti” related to your question comes at 10.1.
-Yes. The English translation there is good. If you read the rest of it, it will become clearer.
– The point is the following: When one comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world, it will be easier to engage in such behavior. One just needs to be mindful.4. Your comment about the Buddha advising bhikkhus to cultivate jhana is valid.
– “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
– It is impossible for “householders” to truly abstain from sensual pleasures and eliminate kama raga anusaya. They can get to anariya jhana (that holds only during this life; some lose the ability to get into jhana even before this life ends, as happened to Devadatta) but not Ariya jhana.– P.S. If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.
Excellent.
1. Just to emphasize what Jorg already mentioned.
– Moha is a universal akusala cetasika. See #6 of “Cetasika (Mental Factors)”
Therefore, it will be removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, as Jorg mentioned, moha reduced in strength to avijja at the Sotapanna stage and removed at the Arahant stage.
– P.S. Simultaneously, lobha is reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) and dosa is reduced to patigha). See “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Paṭigha, Avijjā”2. Regarding Jorg’s question, which is related to #1 above:
– Moha reduces in strength to avijja in two stages: (i) removal of 10 types of miccha ditthi BEFORE the Sotapanna stage, (ii) removal of the “wrong view” about an “unchanging self/soul/atman” at the Sotapanna stage. That second one is the same as the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– After the Sotapanna stage, the “perception of an unchanging self” or a “me” persists as “asmi mana” up to the Arahant stage. Of course, it reduces in strength at Sakadagami and Anagami stages.
– So, the “perception of an unchanging self” starts reducing very early. Having “wrong views” enhances the “perception of an unchanging self.” Thus it starts dropping even before the Sotapanna stage.3. It is imperative to appreciate the significance of the removal of ditthis, first with the removal of the ten types of miccha ditthi and then with the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– A huge amount of defilements are removed with the removal of those wrong views.
– “Sakkaya ditthi” is almost the same as “attanuditthi” or the “wrong views of an unchanging self or me.”
– See, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)” and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35. 167).”
– As we know, a Sotapanna gets on the Noble Eightfold Path by just comprehending the “wider worldview” of the Buddha. That leads to the removal of sakkaya ditthi/attanuditthi. Then one realizes that there could be much suffering when born in the apayas. The way one makes causes to be born in the apayas is explained by Paticca Samuppada. When one sees that, one realizes the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world.1 user thanked author for this post.
I did not say I was going to explain Aranavavibhangga Sutta further.
– What specifically needs further explanation? I have given enough clues to figure things out.Thank you very much, Jorg.
I received your email with the suggestions. These suggestions will make the website better and thus help others.
– Much merits for your effort!OK. I understand now.
You wrote in the first post:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What a good/bad time is, (ii) how to stop having a bad time, (iii) and how to have a good time. I chose this word because it doesn’t mean indulging in the “good time” in Korean. I did it because I wanted to explain what I understood with as easy words as possible, but I don’t mind changing it to a more appropriate term.”What if we revise it as:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What peace of mind is, (ii) how to stop a distressing mindset, (iii) and how to maintain a peaceful state of mind.”Is that consistent with what you have in mind?
To get some background information.
1. Do you understand/believe in kamma and kamma vipaka?
2. Do you believe in rebirth?Good to hear that, Jorg!
“The site is full of “Retrieving memories via the mana indriya,” but that it’s also responsible for the storage via the same route, I’ve only seen stated here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, obviously, but for sure it’s not stated as abundantly then.”
If you can suggest pages where this should be explained, that would be great. It is OK to be repetitive because it is easy to miss a post or two while reading on a given subject.
– I may be under the impression that I have discussed enough, but it is hard to remember what I wrote where!
