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Thank you for sharing your unique experience.
- Such ‘encounters’ will be reduced as one learns more about the Buddha’s teachings.
- Yes. The world is a very complex place, but we can shield ourselves from such ‘uncomfortable experiences’ by understanding how the mind works. The mind tends to be attracted to such phenomena when delving into such subjects.
- It is best to avoid thinking about such topics and to focus on finding out why such living beings exist.
- The following is an old post somewhat related to the subject: “Abnormal Births Due to Gandhabba Transformations.”
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Yes. Different people may see the ‘anicca, dukka, anatta nature’ of the world (and the ‘mind-made sensory pleasures’) in different ways.
- Once, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus who had declared the attainment of the Sotapanna stage how to describe it. Each one provided a different description of the Sotapanna stage.
- That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave the analogy of asking someone to describe a tree with a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red, resembling pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (a specific, distinctive shape). Some people would identify the tree by its unique trunk, while some others would describe it by its flowers. Others might identify it by the uniqueness of its leaves. But they all had seen the tree! See “Kiṁsukopama Sutta (SN 35. 245).”
- The following is the translation of the same sutta by Bhikkhu Bodhi: “35.245. The Kiṁsuka Tree.” Both translations provide the basic idea.
Saurabh wrote: “Regarding above, I observed one thing, the sensual pleasures are real based on my experience (I have distorted sanna, right) but if I believe that it is just a lie somebody or something putting in my mind when I am not looking at my mind, it kind of proves it right away. Its like dreams are only real until we wake up.”
- Yes. The Buddha gave that exact analogy in the “Alagaddūpama Sutta (MN 22).”
- He provided various analogies to describe the fruitlessness of mind-made sensual pleasures: a skeleton (bone without meat is a better translation) …a scrap of meat …dry grass …a pit of glowing coals …a dream …borrowed goods …fruit on a tree …a butcher’s knife and chopping board …swords and spears …
- The translations in that link are not that good, and I tried to correct a few. But you can get the idea.
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Saurabh asked at the end: “So, what exactly remains if all of it is removed? I mean what would remain? Can we say, just nothing remains? My understanding is that, in addition to being free from birth, cetana (I understand it as choice or intention as the forerunner of kamma or even kamma itself) of arahants is freed, so there is no death as well for them? Am I correct?
Lastly, how can one realize anatta?”- All that is removed are defilements, based on raga, dosa, and moha/avijja. They give rise to various types of asobhana (immoral) mental factors (cetasika) in one’s thoughts. See “Cetasika (Mental Factors).” Only the sobhana cetasika can arise in an Arahant. Therefore, only ‘moral thoughts’ can arise in an Arahant.
- The ten rebirth bonds (samyojana) are the ones to be eliminated by comprehending the teachings of the Buddha. Once those are eliminated, raga, dosa, or moha/avijja, or various types of asobhana (immoral) mental factors (cetasika), cannot arise in the mind. See “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.”
- The ‘anatta nature’ is first ‘seen with wisdom,’ and that is when one becomes a Sotapanna. At that point, one would see all three: anicca, dukkha, anatta. However, that only eliminates three of the ten samyojana. Then a Sotapanna must cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path via the cultivation of Satipatthana. This requires a lot of reading and contemplation: See the “Buddha Dhamma – Systematic” section.
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Hello Jaro,
1. Actually, the suttas you quoted are still in the anicca, dukkha, and anatta order. The “Ajjhattānicca Sutta (SN 35.1)” starts with the anicca nature: “Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ.” Then it refers to the dukkha and anatta nature resulting from that at marker 2,2: “‘
- Then the next sutta, “Ajjhattadukkha Sutta (SN 35.2),” starts at the dukkha stage and points to the anatta nature resulting from that in the next verse: “Yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā).”
- That leads to the “Ajjhattānatta Sutta (SN 35.3),” which focuses only on the anatta nature.
2. The other sutta, “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15),” is also in the same sequence.
3. There are other suttas that only discuss the initial anicca nature: “Cakkhu Sutta (SN 35.1)“: “Cakkhuṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi“
- The subsequent suttas in that series describe the anicca nature of other entities.
4. My point was that in the days of the Buddha, there were no scientific studies available to show that colorful things or tasty foods are not in the world. That required grasping the ‘anicca nature’ first.
- Only a few (Pannādhika, or with exceptional wisdom) could have grasped the ‘anatta nature’ first.
- Therefore, the sequence of grasping anicca, dukkha, and anatta in that order made sense for most people in those days.
- However, a few could grasp that sensory pleasures were not in the world, i.e., the sensory experiences are mind-made and are an ‘untruth‘ or ‘na atta‘ (anatta). They could understand what the Buddha meant by saying sanna is a mirage and vinnana is a magician. If one understood that, then its direct implication is that the world has no colorful or tasty things. See “Without ‘Mind-Made’ Perception, World Is Colorless, Soundless, Tasteless, Odorless, and Touchless .”
- However, over the past few decades, modern science has PROVEN that colorful, tasty… things do not exist in the world, as explained in the above link. That makes it easier to start seeing the ‘anatta‘ nature first. In the next post, I’ll explain that in simple terms.
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In his first comment on this thread, Jaro wrote:
“His example of the third case: a Pannādhika comes to anicca and dukkha through anattānupassanā. He contemplates the worthlessness and essencelessness of everything first, and anicca and dukkha follow from that.”
1. I started thinking about the possible connection between that statement and what I wrote at the end of last week’s post, “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” In #17, I wrote the following.
- In ‘rūpaṁ attato samanupassati,‘ ‘attato‘ means ‘as real (atta)’ and ‘samanupassati’ (‘sama’ ‘anu’ ‘passati’, where ‘passati’ means ‘to see’). Thus, it means ‘to see/believe’ that any rūpa we experience is real, i.e., that they are the same as those in the external world.
- If we literally take ‘anatta‘ to mean that ‘the world presented to us by our own minds is a falsehood’, then the above quote from Jaro makes sense. As we know, ‘atta‘ has several meanings, and it is one of them (the truth).
- If one with wisdom (Pannādhika in Jaro’s quote) can see that about our sensory experience, then of course, anicca and dukkha are the natural outcomes!
2. So, why did the Buddha not present it that way in the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15)”? It clearly states the following.
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @marker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
3. It is quite possible that the reason is the following. With the confirmation by modern science (in recent years) that our sensory experiences do not reflect the actual reality of them (i.e., our sensory experiences are mirages), that is exactly what ‘anatta nature’ means.
- One meaning of ‘atta‘ is ‘the truth’. The opposite, or untruth, is ‘na atta‘ or ‘anatta‘.
- So, it is possible that even at the time of the Buddha, those with penetrating wisdom could see the ‘ anatta nature ‘ directly, without first seeing the anicca or dukkha.
- But, for the majority at that time, the ‘seeing process’ probably started with ‘seeing the anicca nature’ first.
4. Saurabh’s comment on AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta is good, too.
- Of course, in that sutta also anicca is mentioned before anatta.
- I need to think a bit more, but I think the point is to see the fruitlessness and dangers of attaching to sensory experiences; anyway, one can. I agree that it is fine to first see the ‘anatta nature’ (which has been facilitated by modern science). In fact, in retrospect, that is what I literally pointed to with the post “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.”
5. By the way, that ‘correct seeing’, or Samma Ditthi, is only the first step. Attaining Arahanthood means eliminating ditthi, tanha, and mana. See “Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi.” So, ‘seeing the anatta nature’ is a first step at the Sotapanna stage. It is fully established in the mind at the Arahant stage. See “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).” However, the first step of ‘seeing the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature’ of sensory experiences, or Samma Ditthi, happens at the Sotapanna stage.
- Then, one must follow the Noble Eightfold Path to eliminate tanha and asmi mana to attain the higher magga phala. Attaining the Sotapanna stage eliminates the three ditthi samyojana. Removing kama raga (and patigha) samyojana eliminates the first part of tanha at the Anagami stage. At the Arahant stage, complete elimination of tanha occurs with the removal of rupa raga and arupa raga samyojana. At the Arahant stage, ‘mana‘ (or ‘asmi mana samyojana‘) is also removed, along with uddacca and avijja samyojana.
6. In conclusion, Jaro’s comment at the beginning of the thread was excellent.
- So, the Tipitaka Commentary, in this case, seems to be valid. We should all further consider other related material in the Tipitaka to be certain.
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Hello Damithu,
A person can go through such stages. Of course, that stops once one attains the Sotapanna stage, after which there is no going back.
- You may want to think about what caused that reversal.
- It could be because you started associating with bad friends. I am just guessing, but that is a strong possibility. The Buddha taught that associating with bad friends and distancing yourself from good friends is a root cause of one’s problems. Your parents and school/Dhamma teachers fall into the latter category. The “Maṅgala Sutta (kp 5)” describing the factors that can lead to one’s progress/benefit starts with that instruction.
- Since you are back in school, focusing on your studies can also help you get back to your earlier mindset.
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OK. I did not get to listen to all three. I listened to a part of Thilakuna Ep06. At the beginning of the desana, Thero mentioned that he extracted some concepts from the Tipitaka Commentaries. Also, I don’t know whether the translator translated Thero’s words correctly.
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Let us look at each one.
Thilakuna Ep06 (Anaththa, Deceptive view of the world): “The next most important thing is Anaththānupassanā. Now one has to see all three. To realize the stages of Enlightenment (Maga Pala), all three must be seen. All three are to be observed based on one. The one who is faithful with understanding and knowledge (Shraddādika) sees Dukkhānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Anichchānupassanā. The one who is effortful with understanding and knowledge (Viryādika) sees Anichchānupassanā and Anaththānupassanā based on Dukkhānupassanā. The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā.”
- I believe that is incorrect, according to the suttas, as I pointed out above.
- P.S. In particular, the statement, “The one who is prominent in wisdom (Pannādika) contemplates and sees Anichchānupassanā and Dukkhanupassanā based on Anaththānupassanā” does not make sense with the order of understanding: anicca, dukkha, anatta. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
“Now, will ‘SakkāyaDitti’ be abolished? Was it understood to that extent? There is a pertinent point. There is an important point for achieving ‘Sōthāpanna Pala’. It is necessary to be well versed in ‘SakkāyaDitti’.”
- This is correct.
Thilakuna Ep05 (Dukkha, Unheard trap of suffering): “The effortful person will stop the suffering from Sankhāra Dukkha (suffering of processing and construction), and attain Nibbāna through Dukkhānupassanā. We need to analyze and understand one by one. There is another person: the Pannādhika person (Wisdomful person). He will attain Nibbāna through Anaththānupassanā (contemplation based on Anaththa – worthlessness, essence-lessness).”
- This is also fine, since it says ‘attaining Nibbāna‘ and does not refer to a specific magga phala.
“As the Pannādhika individual (wisdomful individual) contemplates on Anaththānupassanā (contemplation according to worthlessness, essence-lessness), he also sees Anichcha and Dukkha based on Anaththānupassanā. That’s how it happens.”
- I do not agree, per my previous reasoning. Now, I don’t know whether the Thero said these things in the desana. I have seen this issue before. The person doing the captions in English may not be correctly translating Waharaka Thero’s words/meanings.
“In the end, when Anaththānupassanā … is understood, one important aspect should be understood. What is ‘Sakkāya Ditthi?’ … What does ‘Vichikichchā’ mean? … What is ‘Seelabbatha Parāmāsa?’ … Sōvānhood will be attained if these three are eradicated.”
- Correct. Of course, if one understood the anatta nature, one would have to be a Sotapanna who has already removed Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, etc.
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I think the other comments are OK, since the statements are vague. The following final one is not correct (again, it could be an issue with the translator):
“In whatever way if Anichcha was realized, Dukkha is also realized. Anaththa is also realized. If Dukkha was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Anaththa are also observed. If Anaththa was understood through Dhamma, Anichcha and Dukkha are also observed.”
- Understanding happens in the order of anicca, dukkha, anatta, per my Sutta references above. Of course, one may understand all three within a short time, like in the case of Ven. Bahiya.
I am open to discussing this further if the Sutta Pitaka provides evidence to contradict my statements. I no longer fully accept the explanations in the Commentaries (as I argued above), even though some are good and useful.
- I saw the same problem with the ‘Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada‘ that Waharaka Thero adopted from the Commentaries. See “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It.”
- The bottom line is that we must always give priority to the Sutta Piṭaka.
P.S. I removed the following from my first comment above in this post, since it may cause confusion.
- Here is another set of confirming suttas on miccha dithi, sakkaya ditthi, and attanuditthi. Attanuditthi is eliminated at the Arahant stage, when avijja is eliminated from the mind: “Micchādiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.165)“, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)“, and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.167)“. I have not discussed attanuditthi in a post. It is about eliminating ‘asmi mana‘ at the Arahant stage. The last three samyojana of asmi mana, uddhacca, and avijja are removed at the Arahant stage.
- I think it is better to discuss those three suttas in a separate post.
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Rewritten Post:
Imasmim Sati Idam Hoti – What Does It Really Mean?
Revised:
Chachakka Sutta – Six Types Of Vipāka Viññāna | Pure Dhamma This post has been renamed: “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Viññāna”1 user thanked author for this post.
OK. I will take a look at them after posting the weekly post, either today or tomorrow.
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Hello Jaro,
1. The sequence is clear from the “Yadanicca Sutta (SN 22.15).”
- “Yadaniccaṁ (yad aniccaṁ) taṁ dukkhaṁ” OR ‘dukkha arises due to anicca nature.’ Thus, anicca comes first.
- @mrker 1.4: “yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā (tad anattā)” OR “it is of anatta nature because it brings dukkha.” Thus, anatta comes last.
2. Another point is mentioned in #13 of “‘Attato Samanupassati’ and Sotapanna Stage.” To quote from there:
- It is only with the complete cessation of avijjā (at the Arahant stage) that one fully comprehends that all sensory experiences are mind-made. That is when one fully comprehends the ‘anatta‘ nature.
- For example, the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage when the Buddha described the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)” in detail over several days. However, they attained the Arahant stage by listening to the Buddha’s explanation of ‘anatta nature’ in the “Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59).”
3. Can you post the links to those two desanas you mentioned? I can take a look.
- Or you can email me the links: [email protected]
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There are several suttas that state a Sotapanna is free of rebirths in the four lowest realms: niraya (hell), tiracchāna (animal), petti or peta (‘hungry ghost’), and vinipāta asura (I don’t try to translate it, but a common translation is ‘titans’). See, for example, “Paṭhamagiñjakāvasatha Sutta (SN 55.8).”
- Those four realms seem to correspond to lobha, dosa, and moha as follows: Dosa is the worst, leading to rebirths in a niraya. Lobha leads to rebirths in the petti or peta realms (they have subtle bodies too, and those two factors could be why they are called ‘hungry ghosts’). Moha leads to rebirths in the vinipāta asura realm. Finally, rebirths in the animal realm could be combinations of lobha, dosa, and moha.
- Rebirths happen according to the ‘gati‘ cultivated. Thus, that explanation somewhat matches the description in the “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68).” For some reason, ‘vinipāta asura gati‘ is missing in this sutta.
Even though I have not seen the word ‘khuppipāsābhūta‘ in the Tipitaka, ‘khuppipāsa‘ does mean ‘hunger and thirst’. See “Cūḷadukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN 14).”
In reading those paragraphs, one needs to be aware of the following facts:
1. ‘Suffering’ refers to the ‘suffering in the rebirth process’, not necessarily the suffering experienced in this life.
2. A Sotapanna has eliminated 99+% of the suffering to be experienced by a puthujjana in the future, in the rebirth process. It does not refer to the suffering in the current life.
- For example, a drug dealer may live a luxurious life in this life. He may even avoid getting caught and live luxuriously until his death. A Sotapanna may be poor and still go through many hardships in this life. However, that Sotapanna is guaranteed not to be reborn in an apaya, or a lower realm. Furthermore, the Sotapanna has only a limited time left in the rebirth process, and all of those are in the human or higher realms that are relatively free of suffering. In contrast, the drug dealer could be reborn in an apaya due to him ruining so many lives with drugs, and could spend a very long time in an apaya (in the animal realm or a worse realm), just due to selling drugs. Furthermore, he could be trapped in the rebirth for many billions of years.
3. Therefore, my comments in those quoted statements should be considered in that context.
- Any Noble Person would have a relatively insignificant amount of suffering left in the rebirth process compared to a puthujjana.
- The Buddha gave the following analogy: The suffering left to be experienced by a Sotapanna, compared to a puthujjana, is like a bit of dirt that can be picked up by a finger compared to the soil in this whole Earth!
- See #8 of “Murderer to a Sotapanna in an Hour – How Is That Possible?“
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Julian wrote: “If there is an infinite amount of minds with human gati,”
1. Did I say that in that post? I don’t think so.
- The Buddha taught that there are an infinite number of living beings in the universe.
- Think about it this way. Life on Earth is sustained by the Sun’s energy, and the Sun is a star. The Buddha calls this a ‘cakkavāla‘.
- Each star in the universe can potentially sustain life on a planet orbiting it. There are trillions of stars in our galaxy, which is one of billions of galaxies in the universe. Thus, there can be trillions of ‘cakkavāla‘ like ours (with life) in the universe.
- What I described in the above bullet was confirmed by science only within the past 100 years or so. But they still haven’t found life outside our solar system. They actually don’t know much about even the closest ‘cakkavāla‘ (i.e., the closest star), which is around four light-years away; a light-year is the distance light travels in a year at a rate of 360,000 km per second. That is an unimaginable distance! How can they ever find life in a planet that far away?
- I just wanted to point out that there could be an infinite number of living beings in the universe. However, this is not a subject we should focus on. This is one topic that the Buddha said we should not investigate, because there would be no end to such investigations.
2. Cosmology (investigating the universe) is one of the things that the Buddha declared “unthinkable (acinteyya)” for an average human; see “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77)“:
“There are these four things that one should not conjecture about and would bring anxiety and madness to anyone who speculates. Which four? (i) capabilities of a Buddha, (ii) subject of jhānā, (iii) detailed knowledge of kamma vipāka, and (iv) origins of the world.
- One can spend a lifetime studying the details of those subjects and get nowhere.
- The Buddha advised us to focus on ‘ending suffering in the rebirth process.’ That is not easy either. If we get immersed in those other four subjects, we will be wasting our valuable time.
Thank you! I was just curious what it was.
- It is up to you. But “Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu!” or even without that seems OK to me.
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I am glad you understood.
- By the way, what do you mean by “O Vāsava!” at the end of your posts?
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