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Regarding Tobias’s first objection: The following is a more complete version that I wrote:
Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object
1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.
- Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.
Tobias wrote in response to that: “This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities?”
- The ‘anicca nature’ cannot be ‘seen with wisdom’ until what I summarized in my whole comment (previous post) is understood. At least that is my understanding; of course, one should make one’s own decision.
- If you look at the suttas in the Tipitaka, there is no direct explanation of what is meant by ‘anicca nature.’ P.S. There were no scientific studies those days to show that our perceptions do not portray the actual reality. But now we do: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.” People took Buddha’s word purely on faith and because the teachings as a whole aligned with that worldview.
- Before I understood the implications of the ‘kama sanna,’ I also described the ‘anicca nature’ in terms of what Tobias described. Those descriptions hold, but I think the deeper explanation is the ‘kama sanna.’
- Note that avijja is triggered with any sensory input, even when looking at the blue sky or green grass without any cravings. A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!
The second part of the above comment from Tobias: “Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?”
- The Buddha taught that the perception of a puthujjana is 100% distorted. I have discussed that in many posts. And the scientists agree, too: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.”
- That is why I wrote the following above: A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!
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Tobias’s second observation: “I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.”
- I have discussed the fact that it may not be necessary to fully understand the role of ‘kama sanna‘ to attain the Sotapanna stage. This is a tricky issue. One may be able to understand it on one’s own. But one must have been exposed to it at least in previous lives. That is what I tried to explain in the following extract from the post “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview“:
Kāma Saññā Triggers Attachment via Rāga, Dosa, Moha/Avijjā
3. I just wanted to point out that what I summarized above in #2 is the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ that one must understand to become a Sotāpanna.
- However, some are able to see that without going through such a specific analysis. In the days of the Buddha, millions of people attained the Sotāpanna stage by listening to a couple of discourses. They had fulfilled their ‘pāramitā‘ in previous lives and only needed a ‘little nudge.’
- Attaining the Sotāpanna stage in the present day requires a real effort. On the positive side, we are also lucky to live in a time when modern science has just confirmed Buddha’s worldview.
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OK. This is a great question that could help clarify the issue for many. Let us consider the two possibilities.
Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object
1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.
- Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.
- This was the thought process of ancient yogis who went deep into forests to avoid contact with ‘mind-pleasing things.’
- While some of them successfully cultivated jhāna with that approach, they were not able to eliminate the ‘kāma rāga saṁyojana.’ Thus, they are still not released from the ‘kāma loka.’
- Furthermore, since they still held the wrong view that the beauty or attractiveness is associated with external objects, they could not eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa. Thus, they are still not released from the apāyās either.
Objects in the World Do Not Have ‘Color’; Color (and Beauty) Is Mind-Made
2. Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost.
- That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
- Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).
- See “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.”
3. However, it is not easy to remove that ‘built-in kāma sanna‘ from the mind of even a Sotapanna. We have been trapped in the rebirth process for an eternity because of that. It is not easy to get rid of it.
- Thus, their minds would still attach to ‘attractive things in the world’ and enter the ‘kāma loka‘ automatically. However, since they have removed the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘, they are incapable of ‘taking extreme measures’ (i.e., engaging in apāyagāmi immoral deeds) to fulfill sensory desires. That is why they are released from rebirth in the apāyās.
- A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna or the second stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi free of the kāma saññā to cultivate higher magga phala.
- See “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview.”
4. Another critical point is the following. The mind can only generate energies that can lead to the formation of subtle matter, like the invisible body of a gandhabba or a Brahma.
- The kammic energy (generated in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage with javana citta) can generate only inert matter in the external world.
- Both the ‘subtle bodies’ of living beings (with the seat of the mind and the bases of sense faculties) and the inert things of the external world arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- However, it cannot directly generate ‘mind-pleasing qualities’ (e.g., taste, color) in the external environment. For example, the Paṭicca Samuppāda process cannot generate ‘honey with sweet taste.’ It can only make honey, which would not have taste or color, for example. It can induce that ‘effect of taste’ only via various types of saññā built into the subtle ‘mental bodies’ of living beings. This is why honey may not be sweet for some animals, even though it tastes sweet to us and some other animals.
- Furthermore, the effect of saññā can only trigger very low levels of ‘liking’ (manāpa) at the first moment of encountering an external stimulus. It can grow into magnified ‘kāma assada‘ or “sensual pleasures’ that a puthujjana experiences only if the mind enters ‘kāma loka‘ and goes through many steps (in the ‘purāna kamma‘ and ‘nava kamma‘ stages) that I have discussed.
- I have discussed that the Buddha, or an Arahant, experiences only the faint manāpa stage.
- Thus, the sense of joy one feels with external objects (with attractive colors, tastes, etc.) is almost all mind-made and can be stopped. That is discussed in “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.”
- The problem with attaching to such joyful experiences is that they lead one to commit immoral deeds or akusala kamma. That is what gets one into trouble. Such temptations may be avoided temporarily but can never be stopped until one attains at least the Sotapanna stage, where apāyagāmi deeds are blocked by the mind itself without needing a conscious effort.
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Feel free to ask questions. This is a critical issue to sort out.
- Again, thanks to Tobias for formulating that question. Questions like that help me understand what the ‘sticking points’ are.
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I am glad to hear about your experience. Yes. You were on the track thanks to the concepts you learned from Waharaka Thero.
- Your thought process illustrates an important point about the working of the mind described by Paticca Samuppada.
- You may want to think (or you may have already thought about) the steps in Paticca Samuppada that describe how a person can be ‘born’ in the mindset of an animal by pursuing such thoughts. If he carries out an attack per the plan, he would be temporarily acting like a vicious animal. Such actions also generate potent kammic energies that can lead to a future rebirth as an animal of such vicious gati.
Your plan sounds good. Don’t hesitate to ask questions if anything is unclear.
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Tobias asked in his last comment: “Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.”
The following is what he wrote in his previous comment:
“Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.
Colors are inherent in external things:
The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.Colors are purely mind-made:
The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature..”
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@Tobias: I understand what you are trying to resolve as follows:
Does it really matter whether the color is really in an external object or whether it is mind-made (because it does not affect how we understand the anicca nature)?
- Is that the correct way to reframe your question?
Of course. I knew that you would choose option (ii).
I will try to explain it a bit more later today or tomorrow. I have a few mundane tasks to finish first.
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Yes. Some Commentaries have incorrect interpretations. I am seeing more of it with time.
- Some changes can occur in the physical bodies of Arahants with time. But those are not instantaneous.
- Anyway, these are non-issues for us as we try to cultivate magga phala.
“..noble disciple would never knowingly drink alcohol, and that even if alcohol was mixed with milk and put into their mouth, only the milk would go in and not the alcohol.”
- No. That is laughable.
- When attaining magga phala, it is the mind that gets purified. The physical body does not suddenly develop a filter to filter out alcohol!
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Thanks for the input, Tobias. If more people commented, I would be able to address these key issues better.
You made two comments above. Let us categorize them #1 and #2.
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#1: You agree that colors are mind-made and do not exist in sunlight or external objects. You also agree that ‘perception of color’ (our experience of color) is for our survival.
- However, you are not making the connection to Buddha’s teachings on the anicca nature.
- Modern science makes the same argument as you do. They say that the perception of color evolved over time. They say that life evolved into more complex forms, starting with primitive forms that lacked color perception. That is based on Darwin’s theory of evolution, which says life evolves to generate ‘more capabilities’ for survival.
- Buddha’s description is the opposite. Life did not evolve on Earth. The first lifeform on the newly formed Earth was humans with ‘Brahma-like subtle bodies’ (not the dense physical bodies we have today); they were also unisexual like Brahmas, no men or women. Initially, they did not need dense food either. However, with time, their minds defiled (because their samyojana or anusaya were NOT eliminated) and they gradually started engaging in immoral deeds. Their bodies changed over millions of years to become denser, and sex organs also evolved (more correctly, it is devolution, the opposite of evolution). Then, the environment also changed with vegetation appearing. That was necessary for the next step: those humans who had engaged in immoral deeds were reborn as animals. I have discussed/summarized that complex account in two posts :
- “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“
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Issue #2 on the anicca nature is firmly attached to issue #1.
- One must first decide which of the two ways to explain how ‘color perception’ appeared. Did it evolve over billions of years as modern science proposes, or is it “built in differently to different living beings based on their gati“? That second process operates via Paticca Samuppada. For example, humans who have better moral gati but crave sensual pleasure are born with sense faculties to ‘enjoy life’ with colorful, tasteful… sensory experiences, while most animals do not ‘enjoy such pleasures’ because of the immoral gati that led to their births.
- As I have explained, the theory of evolution is based on one critical basis. Thoughts arise in the brain. When the brain (i.e., the physical body) dies, that lifeform ends. The ‘evolution of species’ propagates via random mutations in the DNA. Let us get that fact established first. If someone bases their argument on the ‘theory of evolution,’ then Tobias’s explanation holds. If that is the case, then one should first get rid of that ‘wrong worldview’ to follow the Buddha’s teachings. However, that is for each person to decide.
- Regarding the choice between those two possibilities, I can only provide evidence that thoughts can not arise in the brain. This is the main obstacle facing those who advocate Darwin’s theory. They cannot explain how thoughts and perception (including color perception) can arise in the brain, which is made of inert atoms/molecules. It is called the “hard problem of consciousness.” There are two other pieces of evidence against Darwin’s theory (same as the proposition that thoughts/perceptions arise in the brain), and those are rebirth accounts and Near-Death Experiences (NDE): “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”
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We can continue the discussion, but we need to make a distinction about how to proceed.
- We cannot have two separate discussions: (i) Discuss the choice between Darwin’s theory of evolution and Buddha’s theory of Paticca Samuppada, or (ii) Discuss how to explain color perception within Paticca Samuppada.
- The basis of my posts is the Buddha’s teachings, i.e., color perception arises via Paticca Samuppada.
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The following two posts provide a thorough review of the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and related key issues:
Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’
Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview
- Please feel free to ask questions or make comments to point out any issues/contradictions. My goal is to clarify issues to the best of our understanding based on the Tipitaka.
The following is another fascinating account of a child who claims to have helped build the Great Pyramid. It seems to be a genuine account of pyramid construction.
“Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.”
- To understand that one must know what “paramita” means. Learning/comprehending Buddha’s teachings may not happen in a single lifetime. Different people are at different stages of that. Normally, when a Buddha is born into the world, there are numerous people who have fulfilled “paramita” to higher levels and are ‘almost there’, able to complete that process. They don’t need detailed explanations. But most people today need ‘all the help they can get.’ In other words, those people were able to grasp the fact that not only sights, but all other sense faculties arise to ‘fool us’ with the ‘built-in’ kama sanna.
- Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?
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“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”
- To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).
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“Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).”
- That is correct.
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“regarding the sentence: “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!” Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK? “
- Yes. I say that “meditation object shall not be a ‘thing of this world,’ but dhamma concepts are OK.” Not only OK, but required!
- One must contemplate Dhamma concepts, and that is the way to avoid ‘kama sanna‘ from triggering thoughts of greed, anger, and ignorance.
- Focusing the mind on a ‘mundane neutral object” like the breath or a clay ball may calm the mind, but ignorant thoughts arise due to taking a ‘worldly object’ as the focus, still with the ‘kama sanna.’
- In other words, some worldly objects trigger greedy thoughts, some angry thoughts, and those neutral ones trigger ignorant thoughts.
- When one’s mind begins to comprehend Dhamma concepts, it will automatically move toward the Satipatthana Bhumi. In the days of the Buddha, those who had most of their “paramita” fulfilled were able to grasp those concepts, and their minds would enter the Satipatthana Bhumi during that discourse itself, and even attain the Sotapanna stage. They probably had exposure to concepts like the role of ‘kama sanna‘ in their previous lives. They just needed a ‘little push.’
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1. It is true that the Buddha Dhamma also belongs to the world.
- However, Buddha Dhamma includes only concepts, not ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- Sankhata (things in the world) arise via raga, dosa, moha/avijja arising in the mind.
- A mind devoid of raga, dosa, moha/avijja (the mind of an Arahant) will no longer generate sankhata and is dissociated from the world.
- This is why Nibbana is called ‘asankhata.’ See “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
- Also, see “Asaṅkhata Sutta (SN 43.12)” and “Maggaṅga Sutta (SN 43.11).”
2. One’s mind is always fooled by the ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- By focusing the mind on such things, one can never get to Nibbana. That is why ‘breath meditation’ can never lead to Nibbana, even though it can provide a ‘temporary relief.’
- This is why it is critical to understand that ‘color’ does not even exist in the world. However, the mind has conjured up a way to give the perception of color.
- We would not even be able to see ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world, if the mind did not fool us with ‘color perception.’
- If one can understand the following two posts, it would clear up many issues: “Rūpa Samudaya – A ‘Colorful World’ Is Created by the Mind” and “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”
- Feel free to ask further questions.
New:
Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview
Revised:
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Hello VM,
I don’t know. The mind can generate various types of illusions.
Seeing things like that, or even lights or lights with various colors, has nothing to do with making progress on the Noble Path. Any visuals associated with the ‘world’ are due to the mind’s normal behavior. The Buddha taught that the mind is a magician: “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95).“
P.S. One cannot see “one’s own gandhabba” if that is what you thought it could be.
