[Lal]

Firewns said: “I have read somewhere that circumambulation clockwise around a stupa or Buddhist relic brings enormous merit to oneself.
Is it really a kusala kamma to do so, or merely a form of silabbata-paramaso?
Also, if it is a kusala kamma, will circumambulating anti-clockwise negate its merit and instead bring demerit upon oneself?”

It is always good to know how the key Pali terms originated (“pada nirukti”).

Kusala comes from “ku” + ”sala”, where “ku” refers to “kunu” or keles or defilements, and “sala” means “to get rid of”.

“akusala” is the opposite of “kusala”.
Therefore, an akusala kamma is an action that defiles or contaminates one’s mind. Any kusala kamma involves an action that involves removal of defilements from one’s mind.

Now it must be clear that circumambulation (walking) around a stupa or Buddhist relic is neither a kusala or an akusala kamma.

The word “punna” is related to joy; the Sinhala word “pina” or “pin” is associated with “pinaveema” or “making one’s heart joyful.

Therefore, a punna kamma is an action that makes one’s heart filled with joy. It is usually an action out of saddha (faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha). Such actions may not necessarily be kusala kamma, but some punna kamma are kusala kamma too.

For example, when one offers food to the bhikkhus (or even to a hungry person) with joy in heart, that is both a kusala kamma (giving which is the opposite of stealing), and also a punna kamma because one does with joy.

Circumambulation around a stupa or Buddhist relic (usually while reciting a gatha or Tisarana Vandana) is a punna kamma. In fact, it belongs to the same category as offering flowers and reciting pirith (paritta).

The key reason is that one’s mind becomes temporarily free of pancanivara (kamaccandha, vyapada, tina middha, uddacca kukkucca, and vicikicca) when doing a punna kamma. All those actions make one’s mind joyful and be receptive to deep Dhamma. It is good to do them before sitting down to listen to a desana.

Whether there is an effect for clockwise or counter- clockwise, I am not sure. If there is, it must be a small effect.

In fact, when one does mundane anapana (breath meditation), that could be a punna kamma, but NOT a kusala kamma. That is because it helps keep the mind focused on the breath and thus suppress pancanivarana temporarily. But, by itself, it does not remove any defilements.

April 28, 2018: More details in a new post: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

[Lal]

Hi Johnny: There are so many misinterpretations in the texts that you quoted. I just don’t have time to go through them, so I will just point out a couple in order to illustrate the point that how bad Buddha Dhamma (per Tipitaka) has been misinterpreted.

For example: “Bhikkhus, develop concentration. One who is concentrated knows and sees the Four Noble Truths as they really are.”
– What they translate as “concentration” is the Pali word “sati”. The closest transaltion of “sati” is probably “mindset”. That becomes clear when you understand what is meant by “samma sati” (“san” +”ma” means to remove “san” or defilements). – Thus, samma sati is the mindset needed to remove defilements from the mind, which is basically a comprehension of Tilakkhana.

Another is: “When concentration improves, the body disappears. One sees just a block of four elements; one’s whole body becomes just a block of four elements. One does not see a face, a hand, or a leg.”
– That is just pure fiction. Didn’t the Buddha (or all those Arahants) see and recognize people?

Same thing with the statement, ““Whether one regards mountains, trees, flowers, living things, or non-living things, everything becomes the same – nothing more than tiny particles that constantly arise and perish.”

By the way, who made these statements (or translations)? You should always provide a link to the source.

[Lal]

y not said: “.. put another way,say he does attain the Sakadagami stage in that third Jati, will he still have to come back here until the human Bhava is exhausted before he ‘appears’ in a Deva realm?”

Bhava could be broken while in the middle of it.
– First is to realize that if one attains Arahanthood, no more birth in any realm when the current human physical body dies.
– If one attains the Sakadagami stage, the next birth would NOT be in the human realm, but in the deva realm.
– Even when one attains an anariya jhana, one’s next birth would be in a brahma realm. But of course, one would come back to the human realm in the future, and may even be reborn in the apayas.
– If a Sotapanna attains an Ariya jhana, he/she will be born in a brahma realm and WILL NOT come back to human realm or even deva realm.

So, there are various situations that one can analyze. It may take some time for all this to become clear. One needs to keep reading relevant posts (and keep contemplating, not just reading).

[Lal]

Thanks, Donna, for various suggestions for improvements.

I saw that I could remove the option for a user to leave log of different edits. I have removed that option. For all: Please keep in mind that a given post can be edited only within an hour of posting.

Thank you, Donna, also for the offer to make donations. That is not necessary, but I appreciate your kindness. You have helped in many ways, including the suggestion above.

The best way to contribute to the efforts of this website is to “spread the Pure Dhamma” to as many as possible, but only to those whom you know could be interested in Buddha Dhamma.

[Lal]

What is seela (sila) or moral conduct?

1. When one becomes a Sotapanna, two important things happens to ones’ mind:

– One becomes “sanditthiko” or “san” + “ditthiko” or “one who has seen “san” to some extent (enough to avoid apayagami citta from automatically arising under ANY circumstance).
– Because of that now one can avoid worst defilements that could make one eligible to be born in the apayas. Then one is said to have attained “sanvara”, or “san” + “vara”, meaning “warding off san” or “ability to stay away from san”. Sanvara in both Pali and Sinhala therefore, mean “being moral because one has seen san”.
– This is why the Buddha said, “sanvaratttena seelan” or “one becomes moral by removing “san” or defilements”. To put it another way, this means staying away from dasa akusala.

2. This is why “san” is such a key word; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“.

– The ability to see “san” (defilements of greed, hate, ignorance that come to one’s mind) increases significantly when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, i.e., at the Sotapanna stage.

3. Of course, these are only the first stages of “sanditthiko” and “sanvara” attained at the Sotapanna stage. One gets to higher magga phala, will “see san” even better (sanditthiko), and thus become more moral or “sanvara”.

– When one gets to the Arahant stage, one has become fully “sanditthiko” and one is at the highest possible moral standards.

4. Today, people are judged by their outward appearances. If one talks slowly, walks slowly, one is ASSUMED to have high moral standards.

– On the other hand, a Sotapanna may run if needed, may even talk a bit harshly (not with malice), to get a point across to someone who “is slow to get it”, etc.
– I know people who write nice words, but I can sense their malice in the way they write.

5. Anyway, this is the basic idea. As one makes progress on the Ariya Path, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing dasa akusala, first at strong levels (capable of leading to births in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage; then eventually rebirth at any realm in this world at the Arahant stage. Thus, only an Arahant will have “perfect sila“.
   – Of course, one MUST forcefully stay away from any dasa akusala when one realizes one is about to do one. If one realizes that one just did such an act, one must make a determination to avoid it next time. That is how one makes progress.
   – Feel free to ask more questions if further clarifications are needed.

[Lal]

y not said:”My post does not show. It disappeared (to me, at least) after I had edited to correct the format. I am surprised somewhat that it was there for you to read.”

You have not read the following WARNING I had put out:

March 23, 2018: Do not try to edit posts older than an hour! It will get DELETED. Just make a new reply with what you want to revise.

This is the way the bb Press software (that runs this discussion forum) is setup. Please keep this in mind.

I was occupied most of yesterday. I will try to comment today or tomorrow. Y not can post his comment again if he wants to.

[Lal]

Lang said: “.. especially the explanation of “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”. In this case, dhammā is synonymous with bhava, then?”

To be precise, it is dhammā that give rise to bhava. But they are essentially the same, both are kammic energies built up by vinnana or desires/hopes. Of course, desires/hopes must be connected to dasa akusala in order to qualify. For example, if one is planning to steal something, he/she will be thinking about it with vaci sankhara and generating bad vinnana.

Furthermore, dhammā in this context are the same as kamma beeja built up by vinnana. This is a bit deeper aspect:
“What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.

Please don’t hesitate to ask more questions if this is not clear.

[Lal]

Embodied said:
“1.Sitting virasana or siddhasana (my 2 favorite postures for any kind of formal session) in a silent place (relatively…not so easy to get nowadays) I get into in a state of global receptiveness to whatever sanna surfaces.
2. One should switch between environment and body sannas.
3. So let’s suppose that i start by noticing i.e. the distant noise of a car – I listen to it for some seconds (usually not more than 5) but don’t elaborate on it meaning why it pleases me or not pleases or neither.
4. Then i turn my attention/focus to the body and notice the nature of the contact between my pelvis/tighs and the floor, which may include sensations of temperature, softness or hardness,etc doesn’t matter in fact, i simply notice it for not more than 5 secondes and move on to an “external”/environmental sanna i.e. :light nuances let’s suppose…
5.then again back to the body i notice my breathing-rhythm without interfering with it. And so on.”

How is this going to remove greed, hate, ignorance from one’s mind?

I have no doubt that it will calm down one’s mind. But how is this, by itself, going to make progress in removing defilements from one’s mind and change one’s gati for the better?

[Lal]

I am trying to understand what you mean by ““Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on and so on.”

What are some examples?

Regarding my example mentioned earlier:“Suppose you are sitting cross-legged at one of these meditation retreats. You start feeling pain in your legs.”

I have heard that in some of these meditation retreats people are told to “just bear the pain and it will get better”.
– The painful sensation is generated by the nervous system because (for someone who is not used to be in that position for long times), the blood flow to certain body parts is cut off. It is a warning to say, “shift the leg to allow blood flow’. If one ignores that signal one of two things may happen: (i) Most of the time it may get a better, because the body may get used to it, especially if one increases the time gradually,
(ii) if one over does it and tries to maintain the position for too long in one setting, it may even cause damage to those nerves.

Even if someone gets used to that position over time, that is a “mundane progress”. It is not any different from learning to swim or doing a 100 yard dash within a certain time.
– It has not done anything to get rid of greed, hate, ignorance. Thus there is no “spiritual progress”.

[Lal]

Embodied said: “Briefly noticing /moving on / briefly noticing / moving on and so on.”

Let us take an example. Suppose you are sitting cross-legged at one of these meditation retreats. You start feeling pain in your legs. That is a vedana. What would be your response? Do you just notice that and move on without doing anything to get relief from that pain?

Anyone else can ask any question about how they deal with any specific type of “vedana” experienced during meditation. Rather than talking theory, it would be more beneficial to discuss actual situations.

[Lal]

@y not: The perception of “me” or “myself” (which is called asmi mana) is going to be there until the Arahant phala is attained.

So, that is who that will be doing all those things that you listed.

Also see: “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.

[Lal]

I think it is the second stanza that Donna (inflib) is referring to:
“Mūlaṃ papañcasaṅkhāya, Mantā asmīti sabbamuparundhe
Yā kāci taṇhā ajjhattaṃ, Tāsaṃ vinayā sadā sato sikkhe.”

Which is translated at that website as:
“One should completely extract
The root of proliferation and reckoning—
The notion, “I am the thinker”.
One should train to dispel whatever craving
There is inside, ever mindful.”

I think a better translation would be:
All papi sankhara (apunna abhisankhara) that arise need to be rooted out via breaking the asmi mana spell (mantā), which is the lens (kāci) of tanha that is inside (in one’s mind). By being ever mindful (sadā sato), one should train (sikkhe) to be disciplined (vinayā).

This is the ultimate goal, to attain Arahantship by breaking asmi mana (which is the mana in the last five samyojana removed at the Arahant stage). As we have discussed before, this asmi mana is the “perception of a self”.

In the rest of sutta, steps to be taken are stated.

But it is critical to understand that breaking asmi mana samyojana comes at the end, not at the beginning when one is striving to be a Sotapanna or even an Anagami.

[Lal]

Thanks to Cubibobi (Lang) for providing a detailed description. This clarified to me what is done in the Goenka “Vipassana sessions”.

1. Lang said: “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”, translated as “Everything that arises in the mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”

– Vedana is not just “body sensations” involving just kaya or the body.; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
– Each and every thought is initiated by a sensation received by any of the six indriya (or ayatana): cakkhu (seeing), sota (hearing), ghana (a smell), jivha (a taste) ,kaya (body sensation), and mano (dhamma coming to the mind).

2. Then the mind starts automatically generates mano sankhara based on how that sense input matches with one’s gati.

– For example, classical music may trigger joyful mano sankhara in an older person who loves classical music, but may generate irritating thoughts in a teenager who loves loud music. Then one may generate more vaci sankhara (good or bad). In another example, a habitual thief may see a valuable item, may get attached to it instantaneously (mano sankhara) and decide to steal it (vaci sankhara), which in turn lead to kaya sankhara to grab the item and flee.

3. So, the critical step here in Vipassana (or Anapana or Satipatthana) is to be aware of those mano sankhara that automatically arise due to one’s gati (based on sense inputs from ALL SIX senses), and not to let “bad vaci sankhara” to take hold.

– The second aspect is to cultivate any good mano sankhara that arise – Both can be investigated based on Tilakkhana, as one’s understanding of Tilakkhana grows.

4. To look at it from a different angle: the mind starts making good or bad judgments based on initial “vedana” as described by Paticca Samuppada: “salayatana paccaya phassa”, “phassa paccaya vedana”, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana, upadana paccaya bhava, bhava paccaya jati.

– Here “salayatana” means “six ayatana“: cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and mano.
– These “bhava” are the energies created by the mind for future births, and dhamma in this context is another term for “bhava”; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.

5. Again, the point is that not only “kaya vedana” but vedana due to all six senses lead to the mind making good or bad decisions, which end up in “sabbe dhamma” in the above verse, “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhamma”, which now we can translate as, “all types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhamma”.

– Now it should be clear to those who have studied Pure Dhamma posts on these subjects that there is a definite answer to Lang’s second question: “Is there potential in this technique in removing defilements? Is there a sound foundation for it in the tipitaka?”

6. Just by being aware of body sensations, one cannot remove defilements (greed, hate, and ignorance, where ignorance includes both removal of the 10 types micca ditthi and then comprehending Tilakkhana). That should be obvious even without such a lengthy and deeper explanation given above.

So, I can say without any doubt that such kind of “vipassana” cannot lead to Nibbana.

[Lal]

Lang said: “In this list, ditthi #5 is: “This world does not exist”.What does this ditthi mean?”.

It may sound strange, but people have all sorts of ditthi. The Buddha listed 62 such views in the Brahmajala sutta, I believe.

An example of this wring view is “Solipsism“.
To quote from the above article: “..solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one’s own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind.”

By the way, the next line in the 10 types of micca ditthi is, “paralowa does not exist”. This paralowa or the “nether world” is the world of gandhabbas. Even many Theravadins today do not believe that gandhabba concept is correct: “Hidden World of the Gandhabba: Netherworld (Paralowa)“.

[Lal]

Tobias said: “Why should one not work as a healer? If understanding of the Buddha Dhamma is established and good deeds by healing people can be done, why not do that?”

1. The part of the verse he quoted is, “Or [earn money] as a healer”. The Pali verse is, “Tikicchaṃ māmako na seveyya”. Here, mamaka means “devoted to”, and tikiccaha is the art of healing or how to practice medicine. So, a better translation is, “should not get into practicing medicine”.
2. I am not familiar with the background for this sutta. But it seems that someone is asking the Buddha how should a bhikkhu live his life to “Mūlaṃ-papañca-saṅ-khāya”, or “to uproot the defilements from his mind”.
3. One becomes a bhikkhu to stay away from the need to make a living and to devote most of his/her time to pursue Nibbana. In order to do that, he/she must be supported by lay people. Now the way to “pay back” those lay people is not by doing all those things listed in the sutta, but just by explaining Dhamma to them.
• And in the rest of the sutta, the Buddha describes how a bhikkhu should devote his life for that goal.
4. A bhikkhu should not do ANYTHING to earn money, but also AVOID becoming healers (doctors) people or in general helping with their mundane necessities (doing astrology, helping with fertility issues, etc that are listed in the sutta). This may sound contradictory to being compassionate, but it really is not.
• The role of a bhikkhu, as far as lay people are concerned, should be to explain Dhamma and help them attain Nibbana.
5. If bhikkhus start helping out lay people with their mundane necessities that will be a HUGE distraction. Furthermore, helping someone to attain Nibbana will save one from unimaginable suffering in the future.
• By helping one to recover from an illness is be just to be healthy in this life. There are doctors available for that task, and that was true even at the time of the Buddha. All other “mundane tasks” that could be helpful can be done by people in those professions.
6. In fact, it is good to keep this “big picture” in mind for lay people too. Helping one learn Dhamma, and thus getting them close to Nibbana, will help remove so much FUTURE SUFFERING, compared to any temporary relief by any mundane actions.
• But that DOES NOT mean one should stay away from helping others.
• Of course, we should help people at every opportunity. Anyone who comprehends Dhamma will not shy away from helping others even in mundane matters whenever a need arises.

P.S. Thanks and much merits to Donna for sending the code to fix the formatting error numbering!

P.P.S. . There is more information on this topic at, “Abstaining from damaging plants and seeds“.

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