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Seng Kiat Ng has translated the “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118)” verse by verse. That PDF file can be downloaded here: “MN 118 Mindfulness of Ānāpāna.”
- Much merits to him and his family!
- I also added that PDF file to “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
I have explained the meanings of ‘assāsa’ and ‘passāsa’ (in the context of Ānāpānassati Sutta and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta) in the following post: “Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?“
- I had forgotten about that post. I have written so many posts that sometimes I forget that I wrote them.
The following two posts clarify why ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ is the ‘kāya‘ discussed not only in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) but also in most suttās.
Kāya Can be Pañcupādānakkhandha or Physical Body
Kāya Is Pañcupādānakkhandha Kāya in Most Suttās
- Anyone can ask questions if things are not clear or if there are any contradictions.
Notes:
1. The “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” does not discuss kāyānupassanā. It discusses only ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Kāyānupassanā is discussed in the first stage of the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). That means focusing only on the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146)”; see below.
- Those who believe that Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) describes ‘Mindfulness of Breathing,’ must first understand the ‘three-stage structure’ of that sutta discussed in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview” and also the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- They should also understand that the 11 types of rūpa discussed in the “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48)“: ‘Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.’ Those ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arise in the the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- The verse ‘Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati‘ in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” refers to comprehending the ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arising in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
2. Note that all living beings have the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ unless they are Arahants.
- Thus, Brahmās also need to cultivate not only Kāyānupassanā, but also ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Those latter are the ‘cattāro satipaṭṭhānā‘ or the ‘four types of satipaṭṭhāna.’
3. Now, to the issue of ‘Do Brahmas go to charnel grounds?‘
- Of course, some subsections (1.2, 1.3, 1.4, and 1.6) of the Kāyānupassanā section cannot be practiced by Brahmas without physical bodies. However, since humans can benefit from them, those subsections cannot be omitted.
- However, Brahmas can practice subsections 1.1 and 1.5. That is all they need to practice in the Kāyānupassanā section.
- Brahmas do not need to abstain from many akusala kamma like killing, stealing, etc., either!
4. It must be kept in mind that Satipaṭṭhāna in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) can be cultivated by only Sotapannas or above, whether they are humans or Brahmas.
- To attain the Sotapanna stage, they must cultivate the first stage of Ānāpānassati in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). I discussed that in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
- Thus, Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) are not the same! The Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta discusses in detail the stages two and three in the Ānāpānassati Sutta.
5. Finally, the Sutta Central translation of the “Kāyagatāsati Sutta (MN 119)” starts with the title “Mindfulness of the Body.”
- I have not yet discussed this sutta in a post. However, this sutta describes the final stages of Satipatthana: once the mind has overcome not only the ‘nava kamma‘ stage but also kama guna, and is trying to overcome the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages early in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- At the end of the sutta, it describes the benefits of cultivating Kāyagatāsati.
- At marker 42.1, it states that the practice will lead to Nibbāna: “Āsavānaṁ khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ..”
- How can that be possible if ‘Kāya‘ in Kāyagatāsati means the ‘physical body’?
- Here, Kāyaagatā means “involving the ‘kāye kāya‘ or the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.
6. Anyone can ask questions. Questions/criticisms/comments are welcome! We are all trying to uncover the true teachings of the Buddha.
First, I would like to provide the necessary background.
Contextual Meaning of Pāli Words
1. In my comment on April 29, 2026, at 7:09 pm, I explained that the root “sota” is used with three different meanings in the following three contexts:
- In ‘Sotāpanna,’ ‘sota‘ refers to the Noble Path; one who starts on the Noble Path is a ‘sota āpanna‘ or a ‘sotāpanno.’ Paṭisotagāmi (‘paṭi sota gāmi’) also means to bind to the Noble Path (‘sota‘) and follow it to Nibbāna.
- ‘Bhava sota‘ refers to the ‘stream of rebirth,’ exactly the opposite of being on the Noble Path. See “Mahaddhana Sutta (SN 1.28).” The word ‘anusotagāmi’ (‘anu sota gāmi’) means to stay engaged with (“anu”) the flow of the rebirth process (‘sota’).
- Sota in ‘sota indriya‘ means the faculty of hearing, entirely different from both of the above meanings.
- The meanings are obvious in those cases, and I have not seen anyone misinterpret those.
Saṅkhāra – Many Possible Meanings
2. Let us consider the word saṅkhāra. It can have different meanings depending on context, which most translators do not see.
- First, “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” in Paṭicca Samuppāda implies that saṅkhāra arise with ignorance as a condition, and thus can be loosely translated as ‘defiled thoughts,’ i.e., rāga, dosa, or moha/avijjā are associated with them.
- In the “Vibhaṅga Sutta (SN 12.2),” the Buddha defined saṅkhāra as “kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra.” The same definition is in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44).”
Saṅkhāra That Arise in an Arahant – Cūḷavedalla Sutta
3. Let us examine the subsequent verses in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta, which provide more information. @marker 14.2 it says: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro’ti.” That means “kāya saṅkhāra = assāsapassāsā, vacī saṅkhāra = vitakka and vicāra, citta saṅkhāra = saññā and vedanā.”
- Then, @marker 15.2, it explains further: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” OR “assāsapassāsā are associated with the physical body; that is why they are called kāya saṅkhāra.” Thus, here, it is reasonable to assume that ‘kāya‘ is ‘physical body’ and ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘ are ‘in and out breaths.’
- @marker 15.3, it explains vacī saṅkhāra: “Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro” OR “First one thinks via vitakka and vicāra, and then speaks; therefore, vitakka and vicāra are vacī saṅkhāra.”
- @marker 15.4, it explains citta saṅkhāra: “Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro’ti” OR “saññā and vedanā are associated with citta; therefore, saññā and vedanā are citta saṅkhāra. This is clear in Abhidhamma, where a ‘pure citta‘ (also called a ‘pabhassara citta‘) is defined to encompass/contain six cetasika: Phassa (contact), saññā (perception), vēdanā (feeling), cētanā (intention), ekaggata (one-pointedness), jivitindriya (life faculty), and manasikāra (memory). See “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga.”
4. An Arahant in Arahant-phala samāpatti experiences this ‘pure citta‘ which is devoid of ‘kāma saññā.’ In daily life, an Arahant experiences not so pure (but still undefiled) citta with ‘altered saññā,’ i.e., ‘kāma saññā.’
- Next, the conversation in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta switched to ‘nirodha samāpatti‘ (which is the same as ‘saññā avedayita nirodha samāpatti‘ because in nirodha samāpatti, thoughts (citta) cease to arise; thus, saññā and vēdanā, as well as other components of citta, do not arise). This is where the Arahant‘s mind is fully dissociated from the world of 31 realms. This is the situation after the death of an Arahant: no more cittās arise!
- Then, @marker 17.1, the question is asked: “Saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpajjantassa panāyye, bhikkhuno katame dhammā paṭhamaṁ nirujjhanti—yadi vā kāyasaṅkhāro, yadi vā vacīsaṅkhāro, yadi vā cittasaṅkhāro’ti?” OR “In what sequence do kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra stop when an Arahant enters nirodha samāpatti?”
- The answer is: “First vacī saṅkhāra cease, then kāya saṅkhāra, and finally citta saṅkhāra stop arising.” Per the above discussion, we can say that “First conscious thoughts with vitakka and vicāra cease, then breathing stops, and finally cittās (pure awareness) also cease.”
- Therefore, the above explanation in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta is consistent with the following aspects: (i) Arahants also generate saṅkhāra; however, those are not the same saṅkhāra as those in“avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” in Paṭicca Samuppāda. The Paṭicca Samuppāda process does not run in an Arahant‘s mind, ever. Thus, we can call ‘saṅkhāra of an Arahant‘ as ‘suddha saṅkhāra‘ or ‘undefiled saṅkhāra.’
Saṅkhāra in Paṭicca Samuppāda Start as Citta Saṅkhāra
5. Most people (especially those who have not read my recent posts) may not be aware of the following. Even for those who have, the following simplified explanation could be helpful. It could be a good idea to consult “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” and the chart in #6 of that post.
- A Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) cycle starts (with a new sesnory input) with the transition of the mind from the ‘kāma dhatu‘ stage to the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ state in ‘kāma loka.’ Then the following steps occur before the cycle reaches the ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step (for a ‘seeing event’): (i) bahiddha viññāṇa, (ii) ajjhatta viññāṇa (same as cakkhu viññāṇa), (iii) kāma guna arise for enticing events (if not PS does not proceed any further), (iv) samphassa-ja-vēdanā arise, (v) taṇhā arises due to samphassa-ja-vēdanā (this is the ‘vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’ step in PS), (vi) ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step.
6. All those steps belong to the ‘initial weak kamma generation’ stage, which the Buddha called the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage. See, “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- There, the Buddha pointed out that kamma generation occurs in two steps: ‘purāna (initial, weak) kamma generation’ in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage and ‘potent/strong kamma generation’ occurring in the subsequent ‘nava kamma‘ stage.
- Without first stopping the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage, it is impossible to stop the subsequent ‘nava kamma‘ stage.
- Ancient yogis like Ālāra Kālāma, before the Buddha, were unable to stop the ‘kamma generation process’ because they were not aware of the complete ‘kamma generation process.’ They did not know about the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage. Most people today are also not aware of it. See “Kamma Nirodha – How Does It Happen?”
7. As mentioned in #5 above, only weak ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ arise in the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ stage. In that first step, only weak ‘saṅkappa‘ arise, which are the weakest form of defiled ‘saṅkhāra.’ Even these do not arise in an Arahant.
- However, the mind further defiles to the ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa‘ (same as ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ automatically in the very next step). As we mentioned above, ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ is experienced by the mind, and thus is equivalent to ‘mano viññāṇa.’
- That is important because stronger ‘sara saṅkappa‘ and ‘mano saṅkhāra‘ can arise only with ‘mano viññāṇa.’
- Thus, it is at this point that stronger ‘sara saṅkappa‘ arise (which are still weak compared to ‘mano saṅkhāra‘), if the mind further attaches via kāma guna.
- To emphasize: ‘saṅkappa‘ are a form of ‘citta saṅkhāra‘, but they are defiled, and are different from the ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ that arise in an Arahant. In a PS process, ‘saṅkappa‘ arises only in the initial step when the mind enters ‘kama bhava/loka‘; see the chart in #6 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.“
Potent Kamma Are Done via Mano Saṅkhāra
8. Now, let us continue with the mind contamination PS process from #5 above for the same ‘seeing event.’
- The ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step in PS initiates the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, where potent new kamma are generated with ‘mano saṅkhāra.’ Again, it is a good idea to consult “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” and the chart in #6 of that post.
- This leads to several more steps (within the ‘upādāna paccayā bhava‘ step in PS) in this “nava kamma” stage, the mind passes through several stages (kāmacchanda, kāma pariḷāha, kāma pariyesanā; see #13 below) where attachment becomes increasingly intense. It culminates in the accumulation of strong kamma done through the body, speech, and mind (kammaṁ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā).
- It is in this ‘nava kamma‘ stage that the mind generates potent new kamma that can lead to rebirths! (For those who are familiar with Abhidhamma, javana citta are generated only in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage). This is where one generates kāya kamma (killing, stealing, sexual misconduct) and vaci kamma (four types, including musāvada). Concomitantly, the mind generates ‘mano saṅkhāra,’ which are stronger than the ‘saṅkappa‘ and ‘sara saṅkappa‘ that arise in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage; see #7 above.
9. Those steps in #3 through #8 are discussed in the “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Therefore, saṅkhāra that involve potent kamma are normally ‘mano saṅkhāra’ and not ‘citta saṅkhāra.’ Citta saṅkhāra further defiles into mano saṅkhāra early in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
- By the time potent kamma are done, a mind has been defiled to the ‘mano‘ (same as ‘manayatana‘). As we saw, this happens early in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage, specifically when the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ turns to ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa.’ For example, when seeing a sight, this ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa‘ is the same as cakkhu viññāṇa. Also, note that it is the same mind that sees, hears, etc. The birth of a cakkhu viññāṇa or sota viññāṇa is technically the same as mano viññāṇa. They all can generate mano saṅkhāra.
Conclusions for Citta Saṅkhāra and Mano saṅkhāra
10. I hope the above description provides some clarification on the distinction between ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ and ‘mano saṅkhāra.’
- The bottom line to remember is the following: Citta saṅkhāra can be those undefiled saṅkhāra that arise in an Arahant or the ‘weak defiled saṅkhāra‘ that arise in a puthujjana‘s mind in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
- ‘Mano saṅkhāra‘ implies ‘potent saṅkhāra‘ that arises in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage and can lead to future rebirths.
Relevance to the Current Discussion
11. The essential takeaway from the above discussion for this discussion thread is the following.
- ‘Citta saṅkhāra‘ that arise in an Arahant are NEVER defiled.
- ‘Citta saṅkhāra‘ or ‘mano saṅkhāra‘ that arise in a puthujjana are ALWAYS defiled, even though those ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ are less defiled than ‘mano saṅkhāra.‘
12. That is why I stated the following in the first bullet in #3 above regarding the verse @marker 14.2 in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta: “assāsapassāsā are associated with the physical body; that is why they are called kāya saṅkhāra.” Thus, here, it is reasonable to assume that ‘kāya‘ is ‘physical body’ and ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘ are ‘in and out breaths.’
- In the same way, @marker 15.3, the explanation of vacī saṅkhāra as “First one thinks via vitakka and vicāra, and then speaks; therefore, vitakka and vicāra are vacī saṅkhāra” is also consistent. Here, vitakka and vicāra will not include any defiled versions, with even a trace of rāga, dosa, or moha/avijjā.
- @marker 15.4, the explanation of citta saṅkhāra as “saññā and vedanā are associated with citta; therefore, saññā and vedanā are citta saṅkhāra” is also correct. Those are saññā and vēdanā in a pabhassara (pure) citta of an Arahant entering or coming out of nirodha samāpatti.
‘Kāya‘ for a Puthujjana Is ‘Pañcupādānakkhandha Kāya‘
13. Now, the same definitions (in the Pali verse) must be interpreted differently for the case of puthujjana.
- For a puthujjana, the Buddha ALWAYS used the word ‘kāya‘ to refer to the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ and NOT the physical body.
- The “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) are focused on ways of removing defilements from the mind. That involves stopping the arising of the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.‘
- Anyone can ask questions on #1 through #12 above. After answering any such questions, I will discuss the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.‘ After that, anyone can ask questions about it.
- It is important to clarify these fundamental concepts, so don’t hesitate to ask questions if anything is unclear. Also, there could be typing errors, too, since I am doing this in a hurry.
1. Nibbhid83 wrote on April 28, 2026, at 4:07 pm the following:
“2. The Brahma Question and the Structure of Satipaṭṭhāna You asked a revealing question: “If that is the case, how would a Brahma attain a magga phala without engaging in Kāyānupassanā?”
The answer is elementary Dhamma: By engaging in Vedanānupassanā, Cittānupassanā, or Dhammānupassanā.”
2. However, his argument also excludes Vedanānupassanā, as I pointed out in #6 above.
- To make it more precise, I just revised my specific statement you quoted in #5 of my above comment as follows: “To maintain the validity of that assumption, Nibbid83 thus declared that Kāyānupassanā in Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) is meant only for humans.”
3. If both Kāyānupassanā and Vedanānupassanā are excluded, there is not much left. Anyway, the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) explicitly states that it applies to all sentient beings; see #7 above.
- By the way, I forgot to point out in the summary that Nibbid83’s proposition that ‘kāya‘ means the ‘physical body’ also excludes Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44) for Brahmas.
I wrote the following question on April 28, 2026, at 11:01 am:
- Assāsapassāsā in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44): “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro” does not mean “In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily formations.” Assāsapassāsā there means something entirely different; it is contextual! Look at the next verse in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“; “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” which is translated in the link as “Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process.” That English translation matches your idea of kāya as the ‘physical body.”
- Then, you (and the Sutta Central translator) again have the contradiction with the Brahmas. They don’t have physical bodies. So, are you saying that Cūḷavedalla Sutta is also restricted to humans?
4. I will address the issue of ‘Do Brahmas go to charnel grounds? ‘ later, after I explain what ‘kāya‘ is. It is only a part of Kāyānupassanā.
- Defining Assāsapassāsā as ‘breathing in and out’ is THE major issue. As I pointed out, assāsapassāsā appears only twice in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and not once in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
- Yet the entire procedure is called ‘Mindfulness of Breathing’! See the English title of “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).” It implies that the whole process is based on the breath! P.S. It does exclude non-breathing Brahamās from practicing!
I appreciate the fact that Nibbid83 initiated this topic on his own. For a long time, I had wanted to engage in such a discussion to have someone clarify the ‘mainstream views’ presented on many websites, including Sutta Central. I specifically mention Sutta Central because its interpretation is very similar to Nibbid83’s, as I have pointed out many times in this thread.
Based on those discussions, I made the following summary:
1. Nibbid83 extracts the definition of assāsapassāsā to mean “in-breathing and out-breathing” from the Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36) and uses that meaning in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
- Let me set up the backdrop for the verse that Nibbid83 quoted in the “Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36).” I have linked to the place where the Buddha described his attempts to subject his physical body to suffering in the hope of ‘destroying the accumulated defilements.’ This was the last part of the six years that the Bodhisatta tried to subject his physical body to unbearable types of suffering.
- At marker 24.2 is where Nibbid83 quoted the following: ‘yannūnāhaṁ appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti OR ‘I forcefully stopped breathing.’ This is where the passage with ‘assāsapassāse‘ that Nibbid83 quoted: “So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ” OR ‘So I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears.’ Several verses there explain how he forcefully stopped breathing.
- That led the Bodhisatta to become unconscious. At marker 26.1, it states that Devas thought he was dead. It seems he stopped that practice after becoming unconscious, but continued the ‘torture session’ by withholding food.
- Then, up to marker 29.4, the sutta details the extent in suffering the Bodhisatta endured. Finally, he gave up torturing his body and started taking in food.
- So, it is correct to interpret ‘assāsapassāse‘ in those verses as ‘breathing.’ I hope everyone can see the context there.
- However, the context in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) is entirely different. In the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) ‘assāsapassāsa‘ does not appear at all; see #3 below.
2. He also says Ānāpānasati means “in-breathing and out-breathing” even though the word assāsapassāsā itself does not appear in the beginning of the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).
- The word assāsapassāsā appears later in the sutta at marker 24.6 “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118)“: “Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsā.” and then at marker 25.6 as follows: “Vedanāsu vedanāññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsānaṁ sādhukaṁ manasikāraṁ.” Those are the only two instances of the use of the word assāsapassāsā in the whole sutta!
- In the beginning of the sutta, only the words assasati, assasāmī, and passasati, passasāmī appear.
3. In fact, in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22),” the word assāsapassāsā itself does not appear anywhere!
- Again, if anyone can find it there, please let me know.
- Only the words assasati, assasāmī, and passasati, passasāmī appear in this sutta as well.
- I will explain the meanings of those words when I start my explanation.
4. Therefore, the claim that ‘breathing in and out’ plays a role in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) or the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) is baseless.
- It seems to come from two main assumptions: (i) assāsapassāsā to mean “in-breathing and out-breathing” from the Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36), even though that word appears only twice in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and not a single instance in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22), and (ii) equating Ānāpāna to breathing, as used by anariya yogis. It was Buddhaghosa who adopted that meaning from Vedic practices; see #11 of “Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga – A Focused Analysis.”
5. When I pointed out the fact that rupa loka Brahmās do not have dense bodies, and do not breathe, Nibbid83 declared that breathing is involved only in Kāyānupassanā, and that rupa loka Brahmās do not need to fulfill Kāyānupassanā, and they only need to engage in Vedanānupassanā, Cittānupassanā, or Dhammānupassanā (this is in his comment on April 28, 2026, at 4:07 pm).
- To maintain the validity of that assumption, Nibbid83 thus declared that Kāyānupassanā in Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) is meant only for humans.
- Kāyānupassanā appears in almost all the suttās in the Ānāpāna Saṁyutta and Satipaṭṭhāna Saṁyutta. That is a lot of suttās!
6. As I quoted in #2 above, the second usage of the word assāsapassāsā appears in the Vedanānupassanā. Let me provide the direct link: “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118).”
- Therefore, Rupa Loka Brahmās, who lack dense bodies and do not breathe, cannot practice Vedanānupassanā either, according to Nibbid83’s interpretation of assāsapassāsā.
- Thus, according to Nibbid83’s interpretation, Rupa Loka Brahmās cannot practice Kāyānupassanā AND Vedanānupassanā!
7. However, the following verse appears in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” at the beginning: “Ekāyano ayaṁ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṁ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṁ samatikkamāya dukkhadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamāya ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṁ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.“
- It means, “There is one guaranteed way for all sentient beings to attain Nibbāna, and that is Satipaṭṭhāna.”
- It does not say that Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) applies only to humans (manussa)! It applies to all sentient beings (sattā).
8. Nibbid83 used a lot of space to discuss methodologies. What matters is not methodologies, but whether the explanations are self-consistent within a sutta and among all the suttās in the Tipiṭaka. Some meanings can be derived from phonetics, but it is much more important to recognize that meanings are contextual.
- This ability is part of the paṭisambhidā that qualifies one to be a teacher: “Paṭisambhidāpatta Sutta (AN 5.86).”
- Instead of assuming the same meaning everywhere (a common practice at Sutta Central as well), one should determine a word’s meaning based on context.
9. Let me address that right now by providing an example, because it is critically important. The root “sota” is used with three different meanings in the following three contexts:
- In ‘Sotāpanna,’ ‘sota‘ refers to the Noble Path; one who starts on the Noble Path is a ‘sota āpanna‘ or a ‘sotāpanno.’ Paṭisotagāmi (‘paṭi sota gāmi’) also means to bind to the Noble Path (‘sota‘) and follow it to Nibbāna.
- ‘Bhava sota‘ refers to the ‘stream of rebirth,’ exactly the opposite of being on the Noble Path. See “Mahaddhana Sutta (SN 1.28).” The word ‘anusotagāmi’ (‘anu sota gāmi’) means to stay engaged with (“anu”) the flow of the rebirth process (‘sota’).
- Sota in ‘sota indriya‘ means the faculty of hearing, entirely different from both of the above meanings.
- Nibbid83 took the meaning of assāsapassāsā as “in-breathing and out-breathing” from the Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36) and used that meaning in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22). That was an error. If Nibbid83 would like to discuss it further, he can start a new thread on that topic. It is a different topic. However, I have already explained it in #1 above.
10. Finally, it is imperative to emphasize the main assumption of Nibbid83: Kāya in Kāyānupassanā is the physical body.
- Thus, Kāyānupassanā means to ‘contemplate on the physical body.’ That is why, according to Nibbid83, Rupa Loka Brahmās cannot practice Kāyānupassanā or Vedanānupassanā.
- Furthermore, he equated kāya saṅkhāra to be ‘in-breathing and out-breathing‘ (same as ‘assāsapassāsā‘).
- By the way, the English translations of Sutta Central reflect the same.
11. In my next post on this thread, I will begin presenting my explanation. Since I need to work on the weekend post, it could take a few days.
- In the meantime, Nibbid83 is welcome to make any corrections to the summary above. If he chooses, he can copy it, revise it as necessary, and post it. That can be the baseline I can use.
Thank you. Now, to the related verse in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).”
- What is meant by the following verse there? “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati. Samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṁ viharati. ‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”
- In particular, what are ajjhatta kāya and bahiddha kāya? How do they relate to the rest of the verse?
I would ask other participants not to ask questions or make comments on this thread until this exchange is finished. I would like to keep this thread as short as possible. It is already getting long. I will ask only essential questions for clarification.
P.S. I did not even read your comment before posting because I knew you would come up with some words. I just read your comment and see that you are leaving the discussion. I hope you will at least answer the above question. I have more, but the above is critical. I will wait for a day to see whether you answer. If not, I will begin my explanation, starting with what I mean by “kāya.”
In your efforts to make your case, you had abandoned three whole critical suttas from general applicability. Now, you are also abandoning a selected section of a sutta to fit your case.
Let me try one more time, in another way.
In the “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118)” the following verse appears: “kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsā.”
- Here, the Buddha equates assāsapassāsā to Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ. How do you interpret that?
- Furthermore, what is meant by kāye kāyānupassī there?
- What is the ‘other kāya‘ (Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ or kāye kāya) that the Buddha was referring to? Is there another body within the physical body (because you say kāya is the physical body)?
P.S. I had not read your above comment carefully (most of it is without substance, as I will explain in the future; for now, I want to keep trying to figure out your understanding of key verses) and missed your following comment: “If, as you claim, assāsa-passāsa here means “subduing mental defilements” (pañcanīvaraṇa), you have just committed a massive Abhidhammic category error. ‘
- I did not state “assāsa-passāsa here means ‘subduing mental defilements’ (pañca nīvaraṇa).” Rather, pañca nīvaraṇa suppression happens via assāsa-passāsa.
Saurabh asked: “.. let’s say there is an ariya being and I am aware of that, then is it correct as per Buddha’s teaching to mention this in case I think it can be useful to someone and won’t get misinterpreted?”
- It is better not to talk about someone else being an Ariya (Noble Person).
- However, the Buddha specifically stated that one can declare one’s attainment of the Sotapanna stage in several suttas. See, for example, “Bhaya Sutta (AN 10.92).” It describes the ‘qualifications’ one must have to make such a declaration. Of course, it is not necessary to declare even if one believes one has attained it; however, if that declaration helps others in some way, it is a wise use.
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Yes, it should be possible. However, since their objective/priority is to be born with a human body, their minds may not be receptive to Dhamma.
Let me address your comments in the same order.
1. You wrote here: “I explicitly wrote: “Correction: This is factually incorrect, and it is not what I said… the Suttas are filled with individuals attaining the Sotapanna stage simply by hearing the Dhamma (paratoghosa)… Formal physical breath meditation is not the only starting point.“
My response:
Yes. That is why I replied as follows:
- That is exactly my point. Then what is the need to give ‘breathing’ such prominence (because you say ‘Anapana‘ means ‘breathing in and out’)?
- As you came to realize, there is not a single instance mentioned in the Tipitaka where a person attained the Sotapanna stage by starting off with ‘breathing in and out.’ Angulimala was determined to take the Buddha’s life. Same as Alawaka yakka, who threatened to toss Buddha’s body across a river. Both attained the Sotapanna stage by simply listening to the Buddha’s words.
- As explained below in #3, while listening to the Buddha, their kāya saṅkhāra were subdued (their minds temporarily relieved of the panca nivarana), thereby enabling them to grasp the deeper meanings of the Buddha’s words.
Again, if breathing is applicable as you say only in specific situations, and there is not even a single instance of that leading to a magga phala in the Tipitaka, what is the need to call ānāpānasati as ‘breath meditation’? You did not answer that specific question.
2. You stated: The Brahma / Deva “Contradiction” There is no contradiction; there is only context. The Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (MN 10) were explicitly addressed to human monks (Bhikkhus) who possess gross physical bodies, lungs, and physical breath.
- So, those two suttas are not applicable to Brahmas or Devas? You wrote on April 26, 2026, at 8:48 am: “The Tipitaka explicitly states that Satipatthana is the direct path (ekayano maggo) to purification and realization.”
- This is the first time I hear that the Buddha delivered suttas (especially key suttas like Satipatthana) just for humans! As I understand, the material in any sutta is applicable to any sentient being except for those in the apayas; they cannot comprehend Dhamma.
- This is not a contextual issue. Buddha Dhamma is not restricted to humans.
3. Yes. What you quoted in MN 36 is correct: When the Ascetic Gotama stopped his assāsapassāse (“mukhato ca nāsato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṃ” – “I stopped the in-breaths and the out-breaths through my mouth and nose”), the Sutta states it caused roaring winds in his head and terrible, agonizing physical pain.
- Are you not aware that the same words have different meanings depending on the context? You keep saying ‘contextual’ but don’t seem to have grasped the meaning. This happens in any language, as is obvious from the following examples:
- Right: You are right./Make a right turn at the light.
- Rose: My favorite flower is a rose./He quickly rose from his seat.
- Assāsapassāsā in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44): “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro” does not mean “In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily formations.” Assāsapassāsā there means something entirely different; it is contextual! Look at the next verse in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“; “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” which is translated in the link as “Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process.” That English translation matches your idea of kāya as the ‘physical body.”
- Then, you (and the Sutta Central translator) again have the contradiction with the Brahmas. They don’t have physical bodies. So, are you saying that Cūḷavedalla Sutta is also restricted to humans?
- If that is the case, how would a Brahma attain a magga phala without engaging in Kāyānupassanā?
- All these issues go away when one uses the correct meaning of kāya.
It is unfortunate that you have such ingrained wrong views. You cannot see a contradiction when presented clearly. Let me try another way.
- Your main position, on which you base your assumptions about breath, is the following: (i) Kāyānupassanā as ‘contemplation of the body.’ (ii) Assāsapass = In-breathing and out-breathing.” (iii) Without getting started with Kāyānupassanā (as defined above), one cannot attain any magga phala.
1. Do Brahmas in rupa lokas have ‘physical bodies’ that they can contemplate on? Can they engage in ānāpāna (In-breathing and out-breathing)?
- According to your assumptions, they cannot attain any magga phala because they do not have dense physical bodies with body parts to contemplate on. They can only see, hear, and think. No taste, smell, ot touch sensations, and no breathing!
- P.S. Even Devas (especially in the higher realms) do not have decaying body parts to contemplate on. We do not know whether they breathe as we do. But they don’t get sick or have decaying body parts until close to the end of their long lives.
2. Yet, it is well known that rupa loka Buhamas in 15 realms there (except in the asanna realm) can attain all magga phala.
- The “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)” itself states that rupa loka Buhamas also came to listen to the Buddha’s first discourse.
_________
Do you see that obvious contradiction?
Thank you! It seems that you are gradually beginning to realize the problems with your interpretations.
1. Now you are backing off from what you stated. Now you say, “Ānāpānasati is one highly effective, comprehensive vehicle to fulfill Satipaṭṭhāna. However, the Suttas are filled with individuals attaining the Sotapanna stage simply by hearing the Dhamma (paratoghosa) and applying wise attention (yoniso manasikāra)—for example, Upatiṭṭha (Sāriputta) attaining it just by hearing a single verse from Assaji. “
- That is exactly my point. Then what is the need to give ‘breathing’ such prominence (because you say ‘Anapana‘ means ‘breathing in and out’)?
- As you came to realize, there is not a single instance mentioned in the Tipitaka where a person attained the Sotapanna stage by starting off with ‘breathing in and out.’ Angulimala was determined to take the Buddha’s life. Same as Alawaka yakka, who threatened to toss Buddha’s body across a river. Both attained the Sotapanna stage by simply listening to the Buddha’s words.
- As explained below in #3, while listening to the Buddha, their kāya saṅkhāra were subdued (their minds temporarily relieved of the panca nivarana), thereby enabling them to grasp the deeper meanings of the Buddha’s words.
2. Again, I am glad that you realized the error. I only used your own words in my summary.
- The following verse in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44) is correct: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro.”
- The problem is with translating it as: “In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily formations.” Assāsapassāsā means something entirely different.
- The root cause of the problem is your interpretation of Kāyānupassanā as ‘contemplation of the body.’ In your comment above, you still say that: “The object of observation is physical, but the contemplation itself is entirely mental,” i.e., contemplation is about the physical body.
- In addition, you further emphasize that: “And to leave no room for creatively redefining ‘kāya’ here as merely an abstract ‘collection’ of mental factors, the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta grounds this contemplation explicitly in gross physical anatomy: hair, nails, teeth, skin (kesā, lomā, nakhā, dantā, taco).”
3. I am glad that you realized “Kāya saṅkhāra = In-breathing and out-breathing” will not work, i.e., it does not explain how mental defilements (raga, dosa, moha) can be eliminated by focusing the mind on ‘in and out breathing.’
- However, “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118)“ explicitly states that in the section starting with at marker 16.1 (where I linked to): “Kathaṁ bhāvitā ca, bhikkhave, ānāpānassati kathaṁ bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṁsā?” OR “And how is ānāpānassati developed and cultivated leads to great benefits (mahānisaṁsā) via magga phala (mahapphalā)?”
- Then, at marker 18.4: “‘passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.” OR “When one trains (sikkhati) that way (as explained in between markers 16.1 and 18.4), kāya saṅkhāra are subdued (passambhayaṁ).”
- So, there is nothing wrong with the context. Kāya saṅkhāra are subdued (mind temporarily relieved of the panca nivarana) when one engages in the correct version of ānāpānasati. Furthermore, note that the word is ānāpānasati and not ānāpāna. Sati is involved here, not breathing.
Since we need to focus on Kāyānupassanā and kāya saṅkhāra in the context of ānāpānasati, I will not critique #4. We can have a separate discussion on ‘anicca‘ and ‘aniccānupassanā.’ First, we need to settle those basics in #1 through #3 above.
- I also note that the English translation of the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) in the link in #3 follows your interpretation, which is common, but wrong!
Let me first summarize your position regarding the following issues. These are from your comments above.
1. Anapanasati or Satipatthana are equivalent in the sense that either one can be used to attain all magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage. They are essentially the same.
2. A puthujjana (average human) can attain the Sotapanna stage by using Satipatthana.
3. The following is the sequential process to attain any magga phala.
- Steps 1-4 (Kāyānupassanā): Mindful breathing anchors the mind and fulfills the contemplation of the body.
- Steps 5-12 (Vedanā and Citta): As the mind settles, one observes feelings and the state of mind, fulfilling the second and third foundations.
- Steps 13-16 (Dhammānupassanā): This is where your assumption that breath meditation is “just Hindu Samatha” is explicitly refuted by the Sutta text. Steps 13-16 unequivocally require Vipassana: contemplating impermanence (aniccānupassī), fading away (virāgānupassī), cessation (nirodhānupassī), and relinquishment (paṭinissaggānupassī).
- The Culmination: MN 118 explicitly states that fulfilling the four foundations of Satipatthana brings the Seven Factors of Awakening (Bojjhanga) to perfection. Perfecting the Bojjhanga leads directly to true knowledge and liberation (Vijjā and Vimutti—i.e., magga phala).
4. Kāyānupassanā (First Tetrad): Using the physical breath (long/short) as a primary anchor to tranquilize the bodily formations (kāya saṅkhāra).
Kāyānupassanā (contemplation of the body) involves objectively observing the physical body and its processes as they are, without attaching a sense of “self” to them. According to the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (MN 10 / DN 22), this specifically includes the observation of:
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The process of breathing (Ānāpāna)
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Physical postures (walking, standing, sitting, lying down)
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Clear comprehension in daily physical activities (Sampajañña)
5. Kāya saṅkhāra: In the specific context of meditation and breathing, we do not need to guess what kāya saṅkhāra is, because the Buddha explicitly defined it in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44).
When Visākha asks the exact same question you just asked: “But, lady, what are bodily formations?” (Katamo panāyye, kāyasaṅkhāroti?), the Arahant nun Dhammadinnā replies (and the Buddha later completely endorses her exact words):
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“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily formations.” (Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro).
Visākha then asks why they are bodily formations. She replies:
-
“In-breathing and out-breathing are bodily, these are states bound up with the body; that is why in-breathing and out-breathing are bodily formations.”
Therefore, in the context of the first tetrad of Ānāpānasati (MN 118), when the practitioner trains to “tranquilize the bodily formation” (passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ), they are doing exactly what MN 44 describes: calming the physical in-and-out breath until it becomes profoundly subtle, which in turn tranquilizes the physical body, leading to samādhi.
This explanation is fully internally consistent with MN 118, completely consistent with MN 44, and consistent with the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (MN 10).
__________
Based on your comments (some of which are quoted above), is it reasonable to conclude the following, which can be used as the basis of our discussion?
- Without starting with breathing (Ānāpāna), it would not be possible to complete the other steps in #3 in my list above. Thus, attaining even the Sotapanna stage would not be possible without that first step.
- Those necessary steps only involve contemplation of the physical body.
- Kāya saṅkhāra = In-breathing and out-breathing.
- Then, as the mind settles, one observes feelings and the state of mind, fulfilling the second and third foundations, i.e., Vedanānupassanā and Cittānupassanā.
- Finally, Steps 13-16 (Dhammānupassanā) unequivocally require Vipassana: contemplating impermanence (aniccānupassī), fading away (virāgānupassī), cessation (nirodhānupassī), and relinquishment (paṭinissaggānupassī). Thus, in these final steps, one attains any of the four magga phala, using the contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassī).
Thank you! I need to clarify a couple of more points with you. After that, I will answer any specific questions you may have relevant to the discussion.
- The two issues you raised are irrelevant. It is not the method of how one reaches conclusions that matters; what matters is whether one has understood the material in the Tipitaka.
- Regarding the current discussion, what matters is whether one has understood the material in the Anapanasati Sutta and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Furthermore, the explanations must be consistent with other suttas.
- That is why I stated in the beginning that you can choose any method you prefer. I have only one method. That is to grasp the deeper meanings summarized in the suttas. Consistency across the Tipitaka is required, i.e., one’s explanation must be self-consistent (within the sutta) and consistent with other suttas.
You wrote on April 26, 2026, at 4:35 am:
- Kāyānupassanā (First Tetrad): Using the physical breath (long/short) as a primary anchor to tranquilize the bodily formations (kāyasaṅkhāra).
What do you mean by Kāyānupassanā and “the bodily formations (kāya saṅkhāra)“? Specifically,
- What do you contemplate when doing Kāyānupassanā? What is involved in Kāyānupassanā?
- What are “the bodily formations (kāya saṅkhāra)“? Please give some examples.
I will be traveling the rest of the day. After I read your response to the above questions, I will reply tomorrow.
