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Thank you, Saurabh!
- It could be helpful to read the other thread, where Jaro provided an analogy: “Post on Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta.”
- Related post: “Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta“
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Thanks, Jaro, for bringing up the Māgandiya Sutta. As you correctly pointed out, it discusses the same two-strong-men analogy as in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta, but embedded within the ‘leper analogy.’
1. The following link points to the verse Jaro referred to: Māgaṇḍiya Sutta (MN 75): ‘Seyyathāpi, māgaṇḍiya, kuṭṭhī puriso arugatto pakkagatto kimīhi khajjamāno nakhehi vaṇamukhāni vippatacchamāno aṅgārakāsuyā kāyaṁ paritāpeyya.’
- The English translation there is, “Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’d cauterize their body over a pit of glowing coals.”
- Thus, ‘kuṭṭhī puriso‘ is translated as ‘a person affected by leprosy.’
- However, I think the word ‘kuṭṭhī‘ refers to something like eczema rash, but much worse; there could be tiny worms inside those sores. That disease kuṭṭhī may no longer exist, and the closest match today could be an ‘eczema rash,‘ where the person would get relief by scratching it. A person with ‘kuṭṭhī‘ would also feel relief by getting the wounds close to a fire/heat.
- I spent some time searching for symptoms of the disease ‘leprosy,‘ and that seems different.
2. The relevant point, as emphasized by Jaro, can be better understood by examining the sutta starting with that verse @marker 13.1.
- A better translation of the above verse is: “Suppose there was a person affected by kuṭṭhī, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, they would seek relief by scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, and by getting close to a pit of glowing coals.” (In other words, scratching with their nails and getting close to a pit of glowing coals is a ‘pleasure’ for him.)
3. Now, let me provide a better translation for the subsequent verses starting @marker 13.2:
“Their friends and relatives would get a physician to treat the patient. The physician would cure the patient, and the patient would be healthy and happy again.
Then the cured person (X) would see another person (Y) affected by ‘kuṭṭhī, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, Y would also seek relief by scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, and by getting close to a pit of glowing coals (Y also gets ‘pleasure’ doing those things).
What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Would that person X envy that other person Y getting ‘pleasure’ that way?”
“No, worthy Gotama.
Why is that?
Because while X experienced that ‘temporary relief’ only when he had the disease. When there’s no disease, there’s no need to seek relief.”
- The point is that X or Y would have the urge to scratch their sores and seek the heat of a fire only when they are affected by that disease. With the pain they constantly feel, the scratching and heat seem to provide a ‘pleasure.’
4. Then @marker 14.1, the Buddha explained to Māgaṇḍiya: “In the same way, Māgaṇḍiya, when I was still a layperson, I used to entertain myself with sights … sounds …”
- Thus, the Buddha was saying that he had also sought ‘sensual pleasures’ while living the ‘householder life’ before attaining Buddhahood.
5. Thus, the Māgandiya Sutta provides an analogy to illustrate the ‘true nature’ of sensual pleasures.
- When the mind of a puthujjana is burdened with raga, dosa, and moha (i.e., panca nivarana), it is under constant stress (even though a puthujjana does not feel it that way).
- That is why a puthujjana‘s mind is always seeking remedies (sensual pleasures) to ‘calm down’ the stressed mind.
- In other words, a puthujjana is like person Y and the Buddha is like person X (after being cured). There is no need for the Buddha to seek sensual pleasures!
6. I think that is, in essence, what Jaro also tried to explain. I wanted to provide a better translation of the Māgandiya Sutta than the one in the link in #1 above.
- I am glad to see Jaro getting the point!
- P.S. Related post: “Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta“
Thank you, DhammaSponge.
- I will wait to hear from others.
I also suggest rereading my comment above from May 23, 2026, at 5:42 pm. The account of Channa discussed there is relevant to the following comment by DhammaSponge:
- “Less people, but still a good amount, will append to that, “However, despite me employing this knowledge and Dhamma, despite the fact that I in real time am doing my best to recognize that this sanna is false, that this experience is simply something that my mind is laminating over to try to make it to my satisfaction, I keep giving in and falling for it.”
Thank you, Saurabh, for your comment.
May be I should formulate a question as follows: If our thoughts, speech, and actions are based on ‘false assumptions about the world,’ can that approach ever lead to a satisfactory outcome?
- Is there anyone who does not believe the following statement? All living beings (except Noble Persons) have false assumptions about the world. One false assumption is to believe there are colorful things in the world; another would be to believe there are tasty foods, and so on.
- I hope more people will make their thoughts known. I promise to take every comment seriously. I have come to realize that I used to take many things as ‘obvious,’ which may not be obvious to others.
1. The requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage is the following:
- One must clearly ‘see with wisdom’ that attachment to sensory inputs in the ‘kama loka‘ (that means attaching to sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and touches) prolongs the rebirth process. Not only that, but such attachment extends the rebirth process within the ‘kama loka‘ (which includes the human realm and also the apayas).
- However, it does not require one to stop attaching to sensory inputs in the ‘kama loka.‘ That happens at the Anagami stage.
- Still, ‘seeing with wisdom’ the dangers of attaching to sensory inputs is enough to avoid engaging in the worst types of akualsa kamma that can lead to rebirths in the apayas (because of the elimination of the three ditthi samyojana).
2. The problem is that it is very hard to pin down how that ‘seeing with wisdom’ happens.
- Some people in the days of the Buddha were able to ‘see with wisdom’ the futility (and dangers, because it can lead to strong akusala kamma leading to rebirths in the apayas) of attachment to sensory inputs in the ‘kama loka,‘ even by listening to a one or two discourses from the Buddha.
- However, these days it has become hard. One reason is that the true teachings are hard to find, and most people are confused by seeing various versions.
- Furthermore, even in the days of the Buddha, there were people who spent many years close to the Buddha, but were unable to attain even the Sotapanna stage. A good example was Devadatta, Princess Yasodhara’s brother, who became a bhikkhu at the same time as Ven. Ananda. He could not grasp the teachings, tried to take the life of the Buddha, and was born in an apaya. That means he never attained the Sotapanna stage.
- Another example was Channa, who accompanied the Buddha (or rather the Bodhisatta, Prince Siddhatta) when Prince Siddhatta left the palace. He became a bhikkhu soon after the Prince attained Buddhahood, but could not attain even the Sotapanna stage until after the Buddha’s Parinibbana. Later on, when he sought advice from Arahants, they told him to contemplate the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of attaching to sensory inputs. But he said to himself, “I know all that by heart, but I also know that I have not grasped the Dhamma.” Finally, he sought help from Ven. Ananda. After hearing a discourse from Ven. Ananda, he attained Sotapanna phala. This account is in the “Channa Sutta (SN 22.90)“; The translation there is not great, but one can get the idea.
3. So, it is hard to pin down how that ‘seeing with wisdom’ happens.
- One just has to keep trying to get there.
- I will do my best to answer questions. I will also write more posts to clarify any issues based on forum questions.
- In the next post, I plan to provide some guidelines that could be helpful. One problem we have today is that people don’t know which suttas (or concepts) to study first.
- For example, there is very little benefit in trying to practice Satipatthana before attaining the Sotapanna stage, as I have explained: “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.” However, many people study the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) and even try to practice the content before attaining the Sotapanna stage. That is a waste of time, as they should spend that time learning concepts that can help them reach the Sotapanna stage!
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Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta
The following is my translation of the “Dukkhadhamma Sutta (SN 35.244).” The link has the Pāli version and the English translation at Sutta Central.
- This short sutta is helpful in clarifying why sensual pleasures (kāma assāda) are not only illusions but also are dangerous. Because based on such ‘mind-made kāma assāda,’ people engage in immoral deeds and are reborn in the apāyās.
- That is why a Noble Person would avoid sensual pleasures in the same way that they would avoid being thrown into a pit of glowing coals. Both lead to unimaginable suffering.
- I have avoided being so direct, but it seems the message would not be understood unless stated in direct terms, without any ambiguity. This short sutta delivers that message.
________________
“Bhikkus, when a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of suffering (Noble Truth of Suffering), then they have seen sensual pleasures in such a way that they will have no underlying tendency to seek sensual pleasures.
And they have awakened to a way of conduct and a way of living such that, when they live in that way, immoral qualities of greed (abhijjhā) and displeasure (domanassa) do not arise and overwhelm them.
And how would a Bhikkhu truly understand the origin and stopping of all things that lead to suffering?
‘They understand the true nature of rupa, the origin of rupa, and the stopping of the arising of rupa in the mind. They understand the true nature of vedanā …saññā …saṅkhārā …viññāṇa, the origin of viññāṇa, and the stopping of the arising of viññāṇa.’
(Note that rupa does not refer to ‘external rupa‘ that exists in the external world, but those that arise in the mind when one experiences an external rupa. There is a critical distinction. Any external rupa does not have color, taste, smell, etc. Only a ‘mind-made rupa‘ has those additional ‘made-up qualities.’ See “Colors Are Mind-Made (Due to Kāma Saññā).”)
That’s how a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of the arising of all things that lead to suffering.
And how has a Bhikkhu seen sensual pleasures (kāma or kāma assāda) in such a way that they have no underlying tendency for craving sensual pleasures?
Suppose there was a pit of glowing coals deeper than a man’s height, filled with red-hot glowing coals. Then a person would come along who wants to live and does not want to die, who wants to be happy and wants to avoid pain. Suppose two strong men would grab each arm of that man and drag him towards the pit of glowing coals. He will struggle to be freed from them and will want to run away from the pit of glowing coals. For that person knows, ‘If I fall in that pit of glowing coals, that will result in deadly pain and death.’
In the same way, when a Bhikkhu has seen that sensual pleasures are like a pit of glowing coals, they have no desire to seek sensual pleasures.
And how would a Bhikkhu who has understood that live his life?
Suppose a person were to enter a forest full of thorns. He would have thorns before him and behind him, to his left and right, below and above. So he would proceed very slowly and mindfully, avoiding being scraped by those thorns.
Whatever in the world that seems nice and pleasant (giving rise to mind-made pleasures) is called a thorn in the training of the Noble Ones. Understanding that sensual pleasures are like thorns, they should make an effort to avoid them. (This is ‘indriya saṁvara‘ in Buddha’s teachings.)
And how is someone unrestrained, i.e., does not have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?
Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they dislike it. (They do not understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They let their minds run away, as it keeps generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’
That is because they do not understand how that kāma saññā was triggered, and how it automatically forced the mind to attach to it. They do not understand the true nature of such mind-made pleasures (tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti).
(This triggering of kāma saññā with any sensory input only generates a ‘slight liking’ or ‘manāpa‘ initially. The intense feeling of ‘joy’ a puthujjana may experience is totally mind-made. An Arahant would only feel that initial ‘slight liking.’ Thus, kāma assāda in a puthujjana is fully mind-made. It is critical to understand that: “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.” )
Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind. A puthujjana without ‘indriya saṁvara‘ would attach to all those, thinking those are ‘real pleasures.’
This is how a puthujjana does not have ‘indriya saṁvara.‘
And how would someone have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?
Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they do not hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they do not dislike it. (They do understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They DO NOT let their minds run away, to keep generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’
Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind.
This is how a Noble Person (one with a magga phala) would have ‘indriya saṁvara.‘
However, while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in this way, it is possible that immoral thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They establish mindfulness without delay and quickly eliminate those undesired thoughts.
How fast they must get rid of such thoughts can be indicated by the following analogy. Suppose there was an iron cauldron that had been heated all day, and a person let two or three drops of water fall onto it. Those water drops quickly dry up and evaporate.
In the same way, perhaps while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in indriya saṁvara, unskillful thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They quickly give up and get rid of such thoughts.
This is how a Bhikkhu has awakened to indriya saṁvara, do not let sensory distractions overwhelm them. (Note: This is how a Sotapanna cultivates Satipaṭṭhāna. Once it is completed, they attain Arahanthood. After that, an Arahant‘s mind automatically stops any attachment to any sensory input.)
While that Bhikkhu conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way, others (like their relatives or family) would try to entice them back to the ‘householder life’, saying, “Come, return to the householder life, enjoy wealth!’
But it is quite impossible for a Bhikkhu who conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way to resign the training and return to a lesser householder life.
That can be explained with the following analogy. Suppose that, although the Ganges river flows to the east, a large crowd were to come along with spades and other tools, saying: ‘We’ll make this Ganges river flow to the west!’
What do you think, Bhikkhus? Would they still succeed?”
“No, Bhante.
Why is that?
The Ganges river flows to the east. It is not easy to make it flow westward. That large crowd will eventually get frustrated and give up that effort.”
“In the same way, that Bhikkhu conducts himself in this way and stays away from sensual pleasures only because he has understood that they are devoid of any value and are mind-made illusions.’ It is impossible to reverse that understanding.
So it’s impossible for them to return to a lesser, householder life.”
Kāma Is a Pit of Glowing Coals – Dukkhadhamma Sutta
The following is my translation of the “Dukkhadhamma Sutta (SN 35.244).” The link has the Pāli version and the English translation at Sutta Central.
- This short sutta is helpful in clarifying why sensual pleasures (kāma assāda) are not only illusions but also are dangerous. Because based on such ‘mind-made kāma assāda,’ people engage in immoral deeds and are reborn in the apāyās.
- That is why a Noble Person would avoid sensual pleasures in the same way that they would avoid being thrown into a pit of glowing coals. Both lead to unimaginable suffering.
- I have avoided being so direct, but it seems the message would not be understood unless stated in direct terms, without any ambiguity. This short sutta delivers that message.
________________
“Bhikkus, when a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of suffering (Noble Truth of Suffering), then they have seen sensual pleasures in such a way that they will have no underlying tendency to seek sensual pleasures.
And they have awakened to a way of conduct and a way of living such that, when they live in that way, immoral qualities of greed (abhijjhā) and displeasure (domanassa) do not arise and overwhelm them.
And how would a Bhikkhu truly understand the origin and stopping of all things that lead to suffering?
‘They understand the true nature of rupa, the origin of rupa, and the stopping of the arising of rupa in the mind. They understand the true nature of vedanā …saññā …saṅkhārā …viññāṇa, the origin of viññāṇa, and the stopping of the arising of viññāṇa.’
(Note that rupa does not refer to ‘external rupa‘ that exists in the external world, but those that arise in the mind when one experiences an external rupa. There is a critical distinction. Any external rupa does not have color, taste, smell, etc. Only a ‘mind-made rupa‘ has those additional ‘made-up qualities.’ See “Colors Are Mind-Made (Due to Kāma Saññā).”)
That’s how a Bhikkhu truly understands the origin and stopping of the arising of all things that lead to suffering.
And how has a Bhikkhu seen sensual pleasures (kāma or kāma assāda) in such a way that they have no underlying tendency for craving sensual pleasures?
Suppose there was a pit of glowing coals deeper than a man’s height, filled with red-hot glowing coals. Then a person would come along who wants to live and does not want to die, who wants to be happy and wants to avoid pain. Suppose two strong men would grab each arm of that man and drag him towards the pit of glowing coals. He will struggle to be freed from them and will want to run away from the pit of glowing coals. For that person knows, ‘If I fall in that pit of glowing coals, that will result in deadly pain and death.’
In the same way, when a Bhikkhu has seen that sensual pleasures are like a pit of glowing coals, they have no desire to seek sensual pleasures.
And how would a Bhikkhu who has understood that live his life?
Suppose a person were to enter a forest full of thorns. He would have thorns before him and behind him, to his left and right, below and above. So he would proceed very slowly and mindfully, avoiding being scraped by those thorns.
Whatever in the world that seems nice and pleasant (giving rise to mind-made pleasures) is called a thorn in the training of the Noble Ones. Understanding that sensual pleasures are like thorns, they should make an effort to avoid them. (This is ‘indriya saṁvara‘ in Buddha’s teachings.)
And how is someone unrestrained, i.e., does not have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?
Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they dislike it. (They do not understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They let their minds run away, as it keeps generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’
That is because they do not understand how that kāma saññā was triggered, and how it automatically forced the mind to attach to it. They do not understand the true nature of such mind-made pleasures (tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti).
(This triggering of kāma saññā with any sensory input only generates a ‘slight liking’ or ‘manāpa‘ initially. The intense feeling of ‘joy’ a puthujjana may experience is totally mind-made. An Arahant would only feel that initial ‘slight liking.’ Thus, kāma assāda in a puthujjana is fully mind-made. It is critical to understand that: “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.” )
Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind. A puthujjana without ‘indriya saṁvara‘ would attach to all those, thinking those are ‘real pleasures.’
This is how a puthujjana does not have ‘indriya saṁvara.‘
And how would someone have ‘indriya saṁvara‘?
Take a Bhikkhu who sees a sight with the eyes. If it’s pleasant, they do not hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant, they do not dislike it. (They do understand that such a like/dislike is automatically triggered by the ‘kāma saññā.’ ) They DO NOT let their minds run away, to keep generating more ‘sense of pleasure/anger’ that can grow to high levels of ‘mind-made joy or anger.’
Then that verse is repeated for the other five senses: sound with the ears, smell with the nose, taste with the tongue, touch with the body, and memory with the mind.
This is how a Noble Person (one with a magga phala) would have ‘indriya saṁvara.‘
However, while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in this way, it is possible that immoral thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They establish mindfulness without delay and quickly eliminate those undesired thoughts.
How fast they must get rid of such thoughts can be indicated by the following analogy. Suppose there was an iron cauldron that had been heated all day, and a person let two or three drops of water fall onto it. Those water drops quickly dry up and evaporate.
In the same way, perhaps while that Bhikkhu is conducting themselves and living in indriya saṁvara, unskillful thoughts arise every so often due to loss of mindfulness. They quickly give up and get rid of such thoughts.
This is how a Bhikkhu has awakened to indriya saṁvara, do not let sensory distractions overwhelm them. (Note: This is how a Sotapanna cultivates Satipaṭṭhāna. Once it is completed, they attain Arahanthood. After that, an Arahant‘s mind automatically stops any attachment to any sensory input.)
While that Bhikkhu conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way, others (like their relatives or family) would try to entice them back to the ‘householder life’, saying, “Come, return to the householder life, enjoy wealth!’
But it is quite impossible for a Bhikkhu who conducts themselves in this way and lives in this way to resign the training and return to a lesser householder life.
That can be explained with the following analogy. Suppose that, although the Ganges river flows to the east, a large crowd were to come along with spades and other tools, saying: ‘We’ll make this Ganges river flow to the west!’
What do you think, Bhikkhus? Would they still succeed?”
“No, Bhante.
Why is that?
The Ganges river flows to the east. It is not easy to make it flow westward. That large crowd will eventually get frustrated and give up that effort.”
“In the same way, that Bhikkhu conducts himself in this way and stays away from sensual pleasures only because he has understood that they are devoid of any value, lead to dangerous outcomes, and are mind-made illusions.’ It is impossible to reverse that understanding.
So it’s impossible for them to return to a lesser, householder life.”
1 user thanked author for this post.
DhammaSponge wrote: “If I was to take what you say and make it into something like that, I would think, “note the input, recognize the sanna, realize it causes avijja, note its unreliability.”
- That sounds like you plan to control your thoughts willfully.
- However, that would not be much different from what ancient yogis like Alara Kalama tried.
- First, one must understand the mechanism of kamma generation. It happens in two stages: (i) ‘purana kamma‘ stage or ‘initial kamma generation process.’ (ii) Only the second stage of ‘nava kamma‘ generation that happens willfully (with kaya, vaci, and mano kamma) is controllable. That is what is key to ‘understanding Buddha’s worldview.’
- Of course, one must try to control the second stage at all times. However, until one stops the automatic arising of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, elimination of the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ is not possible. That happens in two stages: First, one understands the details of the ‘purana kamma‘ stage, i.e., how attachment to the ‘kama sanna‘ automatically moves the mind to the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. With that understanding, one first removes the three ditthi samyojana and attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that can one eliminate the ‘kama raga samyojana‘ and attain the Anagami stage to stop any sensual/angry thoughts from arising. I explained that in my previous comments on this thread.
- You can start with the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Also, you may want to read this thread from the beginning again, carefully.
- After that, you can start reading posts in the section: “Buddha Dhamma.” If you start taking notes, that will be very helpful. There are many different, but related concepts to learn. As I have emphasized, learning concepts plays a key role in getting to the Sotapanna stage. Formal meditation begins when one becomes a Sotapanna and cultivates Satipatthana to attain the Sakadagami/Anagami stages.
- I am not saying this can be done quickly by reading a few posts; it will take a real effort.
DhammaSponge wrote: “My rudimentary understanding is before moha can be tackled, raga and dosa must be addressed first through asubha/downsides and metta, respectively. THEN moha can be examined via cultivation of Tilakhana.”
1. Yes. One can look at how to follow Buddha’s teachings in different ways. I think it depends on each person. I don’t know where each person is at. The following makes sense in general:
(i) If one does not believe in kamma/kamma vipaka and rebirth, then it would be impossible to follow Buddha’s teachings. Of all ‘wrong views’ that view (Buddha called it ‘uccheda ditthi‘) is the worst.
(ii) The rest of the people (except those at or above the Sotapanna stage) have the opposite view of ‘sassata ditthi.’ Most of them belong to the major religions of today (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, and Hinduism). Almost all Buddhists (who have not attained a magga phala) also belong to this category.
(iii) So, the first check is to see whether one belongs to category (i) above. If so, it would still be possible to learn morality and such basics from Buddha’s teachings, but not anything deeper.
(iv) If one has attained a magga phala (at least a Sotapanna Anugami), then it will be impossible for them to ‘turn back.’ The Buddha stated that they will attain the Sotapanna stage before they die (i.e., within this lifetime) and thus, they can attain the rest of magga phala even on their own. The difficulty could be in making sure one has reached that stage.
(v). If one has attained the Anagami stage, then that can be verified easily. One should be totally immune to any sensual thoughts arising. For example, one should be able to watch an adult or X-rated movie without generating any sexual thoughts.
2. Now, let us consider those in category (ii). They are the ones who can comprehend Buddha’s deeper teachings and attain a magga phala.
- It is true that learning Buddha’s teachings would be easier if one lived a simple life and did not indulge in sensual pleasures, and are ‘good-natured’ or did not regularly generate vile thoughts about others.
- The next step is to learn the correct Dhamma from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha, i.e., one who has attained magga phala. Since the Buddha is no longer with us, each person has to decide whom to learn from.
3. My thoughts on Dhamma and how one should approach learning are as follows, per the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118):
- One needs to understand how raga, dosa, or avijja arises in the mind. The other religions or philosophies do not address this issue at all. Furthermore, the Buddha (in his deeper teachings) taught that the trigger for thoughts of raga, dosa, or avijja to arise in a mind is the ‘kama sanna.’ This is summarized in “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’,” and I have written posts mostly focused on explaining that in the past three years. I have pulled most of those posts into the section: “Buddha Dhamma.” That ‘worldview of the Buddha’ has never been known to the world unless taught by a Buddha.
- If one understands that worldview, one would discard all other views and attain the Sotapanna stage. That is what is stated in the first stage of the Ānāpānasati Sutta. That is in the post “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.
- Therefore, it is essential to understand the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ before one can permanently remove the possibility of thoughts of raga and dosa (or avijja/moha) arising in the mind.
- That is what I will focus on, since most readers are not yet at the Sotapanna stage.
- As the Buddha stated, once one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, one can get to higher magga phala on one’s own. A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna or the second stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi free of the kāma saññā to cultivate higher magga phala. See “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview.” Therefore, those at the Sotapanna stage can use the framework discussed in the first stage of Ānāpānasati to attain higher magga phala by cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna.
- The bottom line: One must understand the ‘previously unheard deeper teachings of the Buddha’ to attain any magga phala, including the Sotapanna stage. That means understanding how kama sanna triggers avijja in the mind!
You are welcome, Tobias!
One more thing to clarify.
An Arahant is NEVER plagued by (fooled by) kama sanna. They are fully aware of the ‘true nature,’ and that is how they have attained Arahantship.
1. Let me go through the steps of mind contamination triggered by the ‘kama sanna.’ Let us consider a specific case of tasting honey.
- Anyone born with a human body (including Arahants) automatically gets the ‘kama sanna.’ Thus, the Arahant gets the ‘honey sanna.‘ That means he recognizes he is tasting honey. However, only a slight liking (manāpa) arises in his mind. Since his mind has fully comprehended the ‘true nature’ of that sanna, his mind does not attach to it, and does not start a Paticca Samuppada cycle with “avijja paccaya sankhara.’
- That is exactly what happens in the case of an Anagami, too. That first step of ‘avijja generation’ is triggered by ‘kama raga samyojana.’ Since an Anagami or an Arahant has eliminated kama raga samyojana, their minds are automatically prevented from attaching to any sensory input in the ‘kama loka.’
- Now, consider a Sotapanna tasting honey. His mind would also first generate the ‘honey sanna.‘ Since he has not eliminated the kama raga samyojana, his mind WILL attach to the ‘honey sanna,‘ i.e., attach to the taste of honey.’ With that attachment, the mind will also expand the initial slight liking (manāpa) to a bit more intense ‘sense of pleasure.’ However, since he has eliminated the three ditthi samyojana, the mind will not be fully contaminated, and the ‘sense of pleasure’ does not increase beyond a certain point. Thus, he attaches only with ‘kama raga.‘
- Finally, a puthujjana‘s mind would be fully contaminated. Since he still has even the three ditthi samyojana, he attaches with ‘wrong views’ in addition to attaching with ‘kama raga‘. That will also increase the ‘sense of pleasure’ felt. Thus, a puthujjana would experience the ‘maximum taste of honey.’
2. This is why ‘kama sanna‘ plays the key role of ‘triggering the initial attachment’ with avijja.
- A puthujjana born with a human body will ALWAYS attach to any sense input in the ‘kama loka.’ That initial attachment is determined ONLY by whether the kama raga samyojana is present.
- Since anyone below the Anagami stage (puthujjana, Sotapanna, Sakadagami) has not eliminated kama raga samyojana, their minds would ALWAYS go through the first attachment.
- The subsequent further contamination is maximum for a puthujjana, less for a Sotapanna, and even less for a Sakadagami.
- The ‘sense of mind-made pleasure’ also decreases from a puthujjana to a Sotapanna to a Sakadagami.
- P.S. Note that those steps in the attachment will happen within a split second within the ‘purana kamma‘ stage. If the mind gets to the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, one would engage in further actions (over longer times) to ‘enhance that initial mind-made pleasure’ generated in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- An Arahant or an Anagami would not attach with avijja, and they would not have any additional ‘mind-made pleasure’ beyond the initial slight liking (manāpa). P.S. Their minds do not even enter the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- This was explained in “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.”
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I hope there will be more questions from others also, if any of this is not clear. Only questions can lead to clarifications.
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Regarding Tobias’s first objection: The following is a more complete version that I wrote:
Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object
1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.
- Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.
Tobias wrote in response to that: “This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities?”
- The ‘anicca nature’ cannot be ‘seen with wisdom’ until what I summarized in my whole comment (previous post) is understood. At least that is my understanding; of course, one should make one’s own decision.
- If you look at the suttas in the Tipitaka, there is no direct explanation of what is meant by ‘anicca nature.’ P.S. There were no scientific studies those days to show that our perceptions do not portray the actual reality. But now we do: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.” People took Buddha’s word purely on faith and because the teachings as a whole aligned with that worldview.
- Before I understood the implications of the ‘kama sanna,’ I also described the ‘anicca nature’ in terms of what Tobias described. Those descriptions hold, but I think the deeper explanation is the ‘kama sanna.’
- Note that avijja is triggered with any sensory input, even when looking at the blue sky or green grass without any cravings. A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!
The second part of the above comment from Tobias: “Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?”
- The Buddha taught that the perception of a puthujjana is 100% distorted. I have discussed that in many posts. And the scientists agree, too: “The Illusion of Perception (Saññā) – It Is Scientific Consensus.”
- That is why I wrote the following above: A puthujjana has NEVER experienced even a single sensory input without generating avijja!
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Tobias’s second observation: “I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.”
- I have discussed the fact that it may not be necessary to fully understand the role of ‘kama sanna‘ to attain the Sotapanna stage. This is a tricky issue. One may be able to understand it on one’s own. But one must have been exposed to it at least in previous lives. That is what I tried to explain in the following extract from the post “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview“:
Kāma Saññā Triggers Attachment via Rāga, Dosa, Moha/Avijjā
3. I just wanted to point out that what I summarized above in #2 is the ‘Buddha’s worldview’ that one must understand to become a Sotāpanna.
- However, some are able to see that without going through such a specific analysis. In the days of the Buddha, millions of people attained the Sotāpanna stage by listening to a couple of discourses. They had fulfilled their ‘pāramitā‘ in previous lives and only needed a ‘little nudge.’
- Attaining the Sotāpanna stage in the present day requires a real effort. On the positive side, we are also lucky to live in a time when modern science has just confirmed Buddha’s worldview.
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OK. This is a great question that could help clarify the issue for many. Let us consider the two possibilities.
Color Is Intrinsically In Each External Object
1. If this is the case, that means we perceive the ‘true nature’ of the object, at least regarding its color.
- Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.
- This was the thought process of ancient yogis who went deep into forests to avoid contact with ‘mind-pleasing things.’
- While some of them successfully cultivated jhāna with that approach, they were not able to eliminate the ‘kāma rāga saṁyojana.’ Thus, they are still not released from the ‘kāma loka.’
- Furthermore, since they still held the wrong view that the beauty or attractiveness is associated with external objects, they could not eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa. Thus, they are still not released from the apāyās either.
Objects in the World Do Not Have ‘Color’; Color (and Beauty) Is Mind-Made
2. Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost.
- That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
- Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).
- See “Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’.”
3. However, it is not easy to remove that ‘built-in kāma sanna‘ from the mind of even a Sotapanna. We have been trapped in the rebirth process for an eternity because of that. It is not easy to get rid of it.
- Thus, their minds would still attach to ‘attractive things in the world’ and enter the ‘kāma loka‘ automatically. However, since they have removed the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘, they are incapable of ‘taking extreme measures’ (i.e., engaging in apāyagāmi immoral deeds) to fulfill sensory desires. That is why they are released from rebirth in the apāyās.
- A Sotapanna must cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna or the second stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi free of the kāma saññā to cultivate higher magga phala.
- See “Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview.”
4. Another critical point is the following. The mind can only generate energies that can lead to the formation of subtle matter, like the invisible body of a gandhabba or a Brahma.
- The kammic energy (generated in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage with javana citta) can generate only inert matter in the external world.
- Both the ‘subtle bodies’ of living beings (with the seat of the mind and the bases of sense faculties) and the inert things of the external world arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- However, it cannot directly generate ‘mind-pleasing qualities’ (e.g., taste, color) in the external environment. For example, the Paṭicca Samuppāda process cannot generate ‘honey with sweet taste.’ It can only make honey, which would not have taste or color, for example. It can induce that ‘effect of taste’ only via various types of saññā built into the subtle ‘mental bodies’ of living beings. This is why honey may not be sweet for some animals, even though it tastes sweet to us and some other animals.
- Furthermore, the effect of saññā can only trigger very low levels of ‘liking’ (manāpa) at the first moment of encountering an external stimulus. It can grow into magnified ‘kāma assada‘ or “sensual pleasures’ that a puthujjana experiences only if the mind enters ‘kāma loka‘ and goes through many steps (in the ‘purāna kamma‘ and ‘nava kamma‘ stages) that I have discussed.
- I have discussed that the Buddha, or an Arahant, experiences only the faint manāpa stage.
- Thus, the sense of joy one feels with external objects (with attractive colors, tastes, etc.) is almost all mind-made and can be stopped. That is discussed in “Kāma Assāda and Pain Are Mostly Mind-Made.”
- The problem with attaching to such joyful experiences is that they lead one to commit immoral deeds or akusala kamma. That is what gets one into trouble. Such temptations may be avoided temporarily but can never be stopped until one attains at least the Sotapanna stage, where apāyagāmi deeds are blocked by the mind itself without needing a conscious effort.
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Feel free to ask questions. This is a critical issue to sort out.
- Again, thanks to Tobias for formulating that question. Questions like that help me understand what the ‘sticking points’ are.
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I am glad to hear about your experience. Yes. You were on the track thanks to the concepts you learned from Waharaka Thero.
- Your thought process illustrates an important point about the working of the mind described by Paticca Samuppada.
- You may want to think (or you may have already thought about) the steps in Paticca Samuppada that describe how a person can be ‘born’ in the mindset of an animal by pursuing such thoughts. If he carries out an attack per the plan, he would be temporarily acting like a vicious animal. Such actions also generate potent kammic energies that can lead to a future rebirth as an animal of such vicious gati.
Your plan sounds good. Don’t hesitate to ask questions if anything is unclear.
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Tobias asked in his last comment: “Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.”
The following is what he wrote in his previous comment:
“Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.
Colors are inherent in external things:
The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.Colors are purely mind-made:
The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature..”
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@Tobias: I understand what you are trying to resolve as follows:
Does it really matter whether the color is really in an external object or whether it is mind-made (because it does not affect how we understand the anicca nature)?
- Is that the correct way to reframe your question?
