Post on ” Introduction what is suffering?”

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    • #39931
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following post is from Tobias:

      Post: “Introduction – what is suffering?

      The three kinds of suffering are hard to find in the Pali Canon. Here is one of the few pieces:
      Vicayahāravibhaṅga

      Kiṁ su tassa mahabbhayan”ti pañhe “dukkhamassa mahabbhayan”ti visajjanā. Duvidhaṁ dukkhaṁ—kāyikañca cetasikañca. Yaṁ kāyikaṁ idaṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ cetasikaṁ idaṁ domanassaṁ. Sabbe sattā hi dukkhassa ubbijjanti, natthi bhayaṁ dukkhena samasamaṁ, kuto vā pana tassa uttaritaraṁ? Tisso dukkhatā—dukkhadukkhatā saṅkhāradukkhatā vipariṇāmadukkhatā. Tattha loko odhaso kadāci karahaci dukkhadukkhatāya muccati. Tathā vipariṇāmadukkhatāya. Taṁ kissa hetu? Honti loke appābādhāpi dīghāyukāpi. Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati, tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti. Tena ca catutthassa padassa visajjanā yuttā. Tenāha bhagavā “avijjāya nivuto loko”ti.

      Can someone translate these lines?

    • #39932
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following is not a word-by-word translation. I will try to convey the meaning.

      What is the “great danger (“mahabbhayan“)” (in the rebirth process)?
      The great danger is suffering (in the rebirth process).

      Suffering is two-fold: physical (felt by the body) and mental.
      – Physical suffering is pain (due to injuries, sicknesses, etc.)
      – Mental suffering is “domanassa vedana” arising in mind.

      Suffering is three-fold: Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
      – From those three, “the great danger” is “saṅkhāra dukkhatā.”
      – That is because the rebirth process is maintained by saṅkhāra generation (via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”) Thus, once overcoming the saṅkhāra dukkhatā the other two are also removed, and one will get to Nibbāna (Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati,)

      The post that discusses the three types of suffering is: Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering.”

    • #39973
      Tobias G
      Participant

      As you said there is mental and physical suffering.
      How do I feel saṅkhāra dukkha, both ways? Is saṅkhāra-dukkha the mental stress e.g. when maintaining the body?
      Is dukkha-dukkha also both types, I feel physical pain and suffer also mentally about my sickness?
      But dukkha-dukkha can also be stress via vipaka.
      I have trouble distinguishing that.

    • #39977
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Saṅkhāra-dukkha may arise in both ways.
      – For example, one must make an effort when trying to possess something. Then, depending on what types of kamma were done, those actions will bring vipaka later.
      – All three types of dukkha arise via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”

      One type of dukkha-dukkha (physical suffering) is vipaka.
      – The other type of mental suffering, “domanassa vedana,” may arise due to the above vipaka vedana. That is absent in an Arahant, even though the first would still be there.

    • #39979
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Lal, you say:
      One type of dukkha-dukkha (physical suffering) is vipaka.
      – The other type of mental suffering, “domanassa vedana,” may arise due to the above vipaka vedana. That is absent in an Arahant, even though the first would still be there.

      ——————-

      If sankhara dukkha arise later as vipaka, then those will be dukkha dukkha, right? Same for viparinama dukkha; it comes in as vipaka vinnana and would generate domanassa vedana. That means all would be dukkha dukkha. How to distinguish?

    • #39981
      Lal
      Keymaster

      In Buddha Dhamma, “dukkha” is not just “suffering.” It can be “suffering” or “cause for suffering,” depending on the context.
      – In fact, the First Noble Truth is about “causes of suffering.” That is sankhara arising due to avijja!

      We can look at it this way.
      – sankhara dukkha can be in both categories.
      – Dukkha dukkha and viparinama dukkha fall under “suffering” or “vipaka.”

    • #39992
      Tobias G
      Participant

      (Abhi)sankhara are the cause for all dukkha, because the sankata that a beings creates via abhisankhara will bring only suffering (in the long run). That is sankhara dukkha.

      The question remains, why those two extra categories of dukkha (dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha)? Is it because not all vipaka is based on (abhi)sankhara of that certain being but based on conditons in this world? The world is made by sankhara/sankata of uncountable beings, thus a single being will experience bad vipaka based on the result of all sankhara (which we call “planet earth”).

    • #39993
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “The question remains, why those two extra categories of dukkha (dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha)?”

      I am not sure why you say that because “dukkha” can mean either “actual suffering” or the “causes for suffering,” as I explained above.
      – Dukkha dukkha and viparinama dukkha are in the first category.
      – Sankhara dukkha is included in both categories.

      “The world is made by sankhara/sankata of uncountable beings, thus a single being will experience bad vipaka based on the result of all sankhara (which we call “planet earth”).”

      Each one reaps the fruits of their kamma, especially regarding rebirths.
      – Of course, the world is made due to the “collective kamma” of all beings.
      – Also, there can be some “unaccounted suffering” due to things like floods, earthquakes, etc. But those also arise BECAUSE one is born into that existence.
      – But rebirths are ALWAYS due to one’s kamma.

    • #40096
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Finally all dukkha is based on previous sankhara and therefore all dukkha would be sankhara dukkha.

    • #40099
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias: What do you understand by the term “dukkha“?

    • #40113
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Dukkha is “actual suffering” (physical pain and mental suffering) and the “danger of suffering” in the future (dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena).

    • #40115
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias wrote: “Dukkha is “actual suffering” (physical pain and mental suffering) and the “danger of suffering” in the future (dukkhaṁ bhayaṭṭhena).”

      Just before that, you wrote: “Finally all dukkha is based on previous sankhara and therefore all dukkha would be sankhara dukkha.”

      The more recent statement is better. That is the explanation given in Nettipakarana (one of the three Tipitaka commentaries) that you asked the first question about.

      In my answer to that question, I translated that verse:

      Suffering is three-fold: Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
      – From those three, “the great danger” is “saṅkhāra dukkhatā.”
      – That is because the rebirth process is maintained by saṅkhāra generation (via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”) Thus, once overcoming the saṅkhāra dukkhatā the other two are also removed, and one will get to Nibbāna (Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati,)

      It is better to say, “all types of dukkha EXPERIENCED would be DUE TO (abhi)sankhara.”

      The First Noble Truth explains three types of suffering (dukkha): Dukkha dukkhatā, saṅkhāra dukkhatā, vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
      – Here, engaging in saṅkhāra also makes one suffer even at the time of engaging in saṅkhāra generation (for example, working hard to get a good job or a promotion.)

      The First Noble Truth also explains the cause of all three types of suffering to be encountered in the future.
      – That is engaging in saṅkhāra. That is the main part of saṅkhāra dukkhatā.

      Let me put it in another way.
      – Rebirth process with all three types of suffering arises from “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara,” i.e., due to saṅkhāra dukkhatā.

      The point is that Noble Truths on Suffering are NOT merely about the suffering experienced now. It is MOSTLY about future suffering and how that arises and how it can be stopped.
      – Future suffering arises BECAUSE we get attached to “sukha-generating things” with abhisankhara. Thus “the great danger.”

      I revised an old post on the subject:Is Suffering the Same as the First Noble Truth on Suffering?

    • #40117
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Agreed, I see your way of explanation. It is better to see the “danger of suffering” in sankhara dukkha.

    • #40121
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Saṅkhāra are dukha in beginning, middle and end. They were dukha in past, are dukha in present, will be dukha in future.

      To prevent unliked, saṅkhāra are needed.
      To get liked, saṅkhāra are needed.

      To remove arisen unliked, saṅkhāra are needed.
      To prevent arisen liked from changing, saṅkhāra are needed.

      It is constant unnding fight against entropy and laws of kamma.

      Question is not whether anything will go under viparinama or no, question is only about when.

      Despite doing all type of saṅkhāra for stopping unliked and keeping liked, unliked still comes and liked still slips away.

      In present,

      There is grief due to past,
      (Due to liked things which passed away,
      Unliked which couldn’t be stopped.)

      There is Fear for future
      (Whether what one wants will happen, whether what one doesn’t want to happen will be prevented.)

      Sansarā = constant hanging between grief and fear.

      ↑ Something I learnt from ven. Ammadassana thero.

      Only saṅkhāra which leads to anything meaningful, are kusāla mula saṅkhāra.

    • #40830
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Lal, can you please translate those lines in Pe 5 Hāravibhaṅgapañcamabhūmi?

      Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni tisso dukkhatā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, vipariṇāmadukkhatāya dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, dukkhadukkhatāya ca dukkhatā

      This is about the three sankhata lakkhana and the correlation to the three types of dukkha. I cannot see how dukkha-dukkha is linked to vaya lakkhana.

    • #40831
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The verse Tobias quoted comes at the beginning of the web page.
      – Part of that verse is missing and also the commas are in the wrong places. The following is the same verse in the Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka edition, which is correct:

      Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni tisso dukkhatā: uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca, vayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ vipariṇāmadukkhatā ca, aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ dukkhadukkhatāya dukkhatā ca, imesaṁ tiṇṇaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇānaṁ..”

      Translation:
      “Three saṅkhata lakkhaṇa correspond to three types of suffering (tisso dukkhatā):
      (i) uppāda is a saṅkhata lakkhaṇa that corresponds to saṅkhāra dukkhatā. A saṅkhata arises due to (avijja paccaya) saṅkhāra. That itself takes effort (suffering). Furthermore, it will also lead to future suffering.
      (ii) vayo is a saṅkhata lakkhaṇa corresponding to vipariṇāma dukkhatā. Any saṅkhata is destroyed (vaya) and that leads to vipariṇāma dukkhatā.
      (iii) aññathatta is a saṅkhata lakkhaṇa corresponding to dukkha dukkhatā. Any saṅkhata undergoes unexpected changes (aññathatta) during existence and that is dukkha dukkhatā.

    • #40835
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Thanks, that makes sense now.
      You should use this translation in the post Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering, #9.

      What is the Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka edition? I will use this text above in the German website.

    • #40842
      Lal
      Keymaster

      OK. I did revise the post to include it. Good suggestion. Thanks!

      Buddha Jayanthi Tipitaka edition has the original Pali Tipitaka (in the Sinhala alphabet) and a translation in the Sinhala language. It was published around 2005, I believe.
      – But that translation is not correct in most cases, just like the English translations at Sutta Central. Incorrect interpretations of anicca and anatta appear, for example.

    • #40848
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      One way I think about saṅkhāra dukkhā is that,

      Because of Aniccā nature of all saṅkhata,

      We always have to engage in doing saṅkhāra of various types until PARINIBBANA.

      Now, when we do saṅkhāra for saṅkhata with Aniccā nature,

      They keep changing, so we have to kee putting efforts without any end in sight.

      If saṅkhata worked as per iccha/will/desire/wish,
      There would be no need to keep doing saṅkhāra.

      But, because they don’t,
      We have saṅkhāra dukkhā.

      Another aspect doing saṅkhāra for any saṅkhāra is like embracing feces.

      Because they do not ever lead to anything substantial.

      Another aspect,
      Despite putting in even unlimited amounts of effort for Anything in this world,
      It inevitably is lost, decayed, perished.

      So, doing saṅkhāra for saṅkhata with viparinama nature makes no logical sense.

      This is how I understand saṅkhāra and viparinama dukkhā.

    • #40849
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That captures the essence.
      – Dukkha dukkha (births in the apayas and injuries, sicknesses, etc in human bhava) arise as kamma vipaka resulting from kamma done with abhisankhara.

    • #44138
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      According to 40831, What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpā too! #16 and 17 need to revise.

    • #44154
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you. Just made the corrections.

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