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I agree with SengKiat‘s comments.
But there is a cetovimutti attained by anariyas like Alara Kalama at the time of the Buddha. That is not Nibbana.
When a Noble Person attains Nibbana via jhanas, he/she attains akuppa cetovimutti (akuppa means “unshakable”); see “Ascendance to Nibbāna via Jhāna (Dhyāna)“.
Either way (pannavimutti or akuppa cetovimutti) the end result is Nibbana.
The verse from the “Culavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“:
“Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti?
“Idhāvuso visākha, sutavā ariyasāvako, ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sap¬purisa¬dhammassa kovido sap¬purisa¬dhamme suvinīto, na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. Na vedanaṃ … pe … na saññaṃ … na saṅkhāre … pe … na viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā viññāṇaṃ, na viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. Evaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti.Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (per Siebe): “Lady, how does personality view come to be?”
“Here, friend Visakha, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as
self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in
self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self, or self
as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.
He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception,
or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards formations
as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations
as in self, or self as in formations. He regards consciousness as
self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self or self as in consciousness”.Sutta Central translation: “But what, Noble Lady, is embodiment view?”
“Here, friend Visākha, an unlearned worldling, one who doesn’t meet the Noble Ones, who is unskilled in the Noble Dhamma, untrained in the Noble Dhamma, one who doesn’t meet Good People, who is unskilled in the Good People’s Dhamma, untrained in the Good People’s Dhamma, views bodily form as self, or self as endowed with bodily form, or bodily form as in self, or self as in bodily form.”My translation: “Lady, how is Sakkaya ditthi NOT established?”
Here, friend Visaka, a knowledgeable disciple (sutava ariyasavako), who has “seen” Ariya Dhamma and is well-informed in Dhamma and is with good conduct ( ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto), same for moral qualities (sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sap¬purisa¬dhammassa kovido sap¬purisa¬dhamme suvinīto), WILL NOT SEE rupa as mine (na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati), etcI am not sure how both those translations missed the “na” or NOT. The other key word is samanupassati (sees according to), related to passati (sees).
Even more perplexing, how did they translate “sutava ariyasavako” as “unlearned worldling”?? No drastic harm was done since “na” was missed in all the places.
But the point of importance to the current discussion is the difference between “seeing” and “verifying and experiencing”. As I have discussed at length, “seeing” and “verifying it be true by experience” are two different things. Please re-read my post on January 18, 2018 at 7:48 am above: “But “seeing” and actually experiencing that to be true are two different things (which may not be apparent to most people, but it is a critical point in Buddha Dhamma)..”
That is the difference between the Sotapanna stage and the Arahant stage; that is a HUGE difference!
In response to my post on January 18, 2018 at 7:48 am above, you said you agreed. And then you just go back to bringing the same issue again in a different way (by saying anicca is impermanence?)!
I don’t think there is anything else I can do, unless you can point out a specific contradiction in my explanation.
Siebe said: “I learned from MN44 that viewing the body as one’s self is a sakkaya ditthi. Why is this kind of viewing not removed at sotapanna stage?”
Which verse in MN 44 says that? Please be to the point.
C. Saket said: “In both Asanna brahma and an Arahant in Nirodha samapatti, there is no chitta flowing, means no vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.
But I think both the cases are different…” and so on.
All that is true. Did I say anything otherwise? You just explained it in more detail, for example, as to how to get a birth in the asanna realm.
Here is a summary of various entities mentioned by C. Saket in the above question:
No citta vithi run in nirodha samapatti. Life in the body is maintained with kammic energy. No vedana, sanna, etc. Maximum time in nirodha samapatti is 7 days.
Parinibbana state is just like nirodha samapatti. The only difference is that there is no “coming back”.
Samapatti basically mean manodvara citta vithi will flow continuously. There is no falling to bhavanga or to take an external object with a pancadvara citta vithi. Thus one cannot see, hear, etc. Normally, samapatti will eventually break on its own or (when one gets good at it) one can pre-set the time to be in samapatti (in one’s mind).
Arahant phala samapatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cetasika. Nibbana is the object made contact with phassa cetasika and vedana are sanna are based on that (we have no idea about that). There, one does not hear, see, anything either, just like in jhana samapatti.
In jhana samapatti, jhanic citta flow continuously at the monodvara, and there is no opportunity for pancadvara citta vithi to arise. That is why one does not hear, see, etc in jhana samapatti. A different mechanism.
In jhanas (not jhana samapatti), jhanic (manodvara) citta vithi are intermingled with pancadvara citta vithi. Thus one can hear, see, etc in jhanas.
So, I think answers to questions (1)-(4) are given above.
(5). Gandhabba is not to be taken as an entity that “exists”. As with everything, the Buddha rejected “something exists” AND “something does not exist”. Something is in existence at a given moment due to a cause. If the cause is not there, the “thing” or the “entity” is not there. So, during nirodha samapatti, the causes for a gandhabba to exist are not there. So, we cannot talk about a gandhabba during nirodha samapatti, during which time the life is maintained by kammic energy.
Another somewhat similar case applies to a being in the asanna realm. There is no gandhabba there, no citta. Just a fine body is maintained by the kammic energy. When that kammic energy expires, citta start flowing and a new bhava will be grasped.
Also, it is important to remember what the Buddha said: “there is no movement of the vinnanakkhandha without the other four khandhas”. We have discussed the sutta references in another discussion or a post; if someone remembers, please give the reference to the post or the disussion. So, there can be rupakkhandha without the other four, like in norodha samaptti or in the asanna realm.
(6). One has not removed avijja when in the asanna plane, and thus will first come back to the human realm and is likely even to go to apayas, unless attaining Sotapanna stage while in the human realm.
One gets to nirodha samapatti by taking Nibbana as the object. Thus one had removed avijja completely.(7). The only similarity is that one would not see, hear, etc while in either Ariya or anariya jhana samapatti. The differences are due to none of anusaya being removed in anariya jhanas. For example, kama raga anusaya is removed at the first Ariya jhana, and avijja anusaya is removed at the fourth Ariya jhana.
Siebe said: “All three kinds of contemplations are meant, do you agree Lal??”.
Yes. Most people get the breakthrough with anicca, some with dukkha, and fewer with anatta, as you mentioned (based on their gati).
But the key point is that when one grasps one of those, one grasps all three withing a short time. They are intrinsically related to each other.
And then it will never be lost, even in future lives. Just like a child who learned how to add will never lose that capability, the Three Characteristics of nature (Tilakkhana), once grasped by the mind, will never be lost.
Then one’s thinking process will be AUTOMATICALLY driven by that perception (sanna) about the world of 31 realms. That is what is called “Samma Sankappa” (how “right” mano sankhara automatically arise).
Then one will start generating vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara BASED ON such automatic thoughts. But that will happen in stages. Only “apayagami thoughts, speech and actions” will be stopped automatically for a Sotapanna. He/she will still need to control “kama sanklapana” with own effort, if to be released from the kama loka, etc.
Therefore, it will be optimized only at the Arahant stage.
Siebe said: “Why is mind, or why are we, not the experienced body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses?”
This is the key to simplify the subtle points involved in this discussion. That is indeed what one feels until the Arahant stage; until then there is always one or more khandhas that “feels like mine”).
Most people (including most scientists) today believe that one’s body is one’s “self”, i.e., rupakkhandha to be “self”. That is the hardest one to get rid of first and is removed only at the Anagami stage, NOT at the Sotapanna stage.
When one “sees” (with wisdom) the anicca nature, one starts comprehending that it is not fruitful to take any of the five khandhas as “mine”. That “vision” or “understanding” starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage and is permanently established in one’s mind at the Sotapanna phala moment. This is called “dasasanena pahatabba” in the “Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2)“. That is the beginning of the Noble Path.
But “seeing” and actually experiencing that to be true are two different things (which may not be apparent to most people, but it is a critical point in Buddha Dhamma). If one truly “knows” that one’s khandhas are not one’s own, then one would not desire any sense pleasures that are associated with the rupakkhandha. A Sotapanna has not experienced the lifting of the burden associated with the cravings for sense pleasures. That is removed via two stages (Sakadagami, Anagami) by contemplation AND by experiencing the “niramisa sukha” by actually removing such cravings gradually (“bhavanaya pahatabba” in the Sabbasava Sutta).
Since sense pleasures in the kama loka are associated mainly with the solid body (rupakkhandha), by the time one gets to the Anagami stage, one does not take one’s body to be “one’s own”. He/she has given up that notion and that is why an Anagami will never again be born with a solid body suitable to experience sense pleasures (I,e., will never be born again in kama loka).
But an Anagami still enjoys the “pure mental pleasures”, especially learning Dhamma and possibly jhanic pleasures. So, it is best to not even worry about removing the cravings for “mental pleasures” until one gets to the Anagami stage. When those are also removed, then there is nothing left to be taken as “me” (asmi mana). That is why asmi mana and any left-over avijja are removed only at the Arahant stage.
“Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89)” indeed shows this difference between Sakkaya Ditthi and Asmi Mana, and Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation provided by Siebe above is clear on that.
It is not easy to understand the difference between “dassana” or “vision” and actually experiencing the results by “living it” (bhavana), which is what is meant by “bavanaya pahatabba”).
Bhavana is not merely contemplation: “bhavanaya bahuleekataya” means practicing it and “living it” all the time, as much as possible. One lives it by doing Anapana or Satipatthana all the time (i.e., by being mindful and constantly “putting out fires in the mind”; see “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“).
Sbalhara said: “in this post, there was discussion on Girimananda Sutta, and a line translated as: “Ananda, all sankhāra are like meatless bones, without substance.” could you please confirm if name of sutta is correct or if another sutta has these lines, as i couldn’t find these lines in girimananda sutta on suttacentral..”
I have given the link to the sutta in the post and it is correct; just click on the link. The exact phrase in the sutta (as stated in the post): “Katamā cānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā? Idhānanda, bhikkhu sabbasaṅkhāresu aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati. Ayaṃ vuccatānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā.”
Attiyati means like a chewing on a meatless bone.
Harayati means without “core” or substance.
Jigujjhati means like urine and feces: not to be liked, let alone craved.This basically says, even though we generate vaci sankhara and “day dream” about sense pleasures, at a deep level those sankhara lead to corresponding vinnana, bhava, etc , and births (Paticca Samuppada) filled with suffering. Of course it is not easy to easy to grasp this aspect of anicca nature. It is said that only an Arahant can fully comprehend this aspect.
What needs to be understood first is that “it is not fruitful” to cultivate such conscious thoughts, and not to do immoral things to get such pleasures. Actually, getting there, especially regarding not generating vaci sankhara on sense pleasures, is achieved only at the Anagami stage.
See: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
I emphasize on vaci sankhara because that is where we start (talking to oneself). Then it leads to speech (still vaci sankhara), and then to bodily actions (kaya sankhara).
Akvan said: “The relevant pali section in AN10.92 is “Pāṇātipātā paṭiviratassa evaṃ taṃ bhayaṃ veraṃ vūpasantaṃ hoti.” Does this mean that a Sotapanna sees the perils of these five aspects (killing life etc.) and therefore tries to stay away from these, rather than completely eliminating them?”
That is right. “pativirato” means will not do those things with liking.
But a Sotapanna is absolutely prevented from doing are those five serious crimes: killing one’s father, mother, an Arahant…
@Siebe: Thanks for the nice summary.
However, it must be kept in mind that some of the translations can be improved. For example, one of the above (SN 48.2-3) is discussed in “Seeing danger in the five faculties“.
Siebe said: “But i understand you think ‘seeing the danger’ in those five faculties refers to the understanding that they weaken at old age, so one has to make effort while still young.”
Yes. The adinava stage is where you see more unpleasant things (because the sankata is decaying), and of course as one gets to the end (nissarana stage, like the old couple in the story) dangers increase.
For example, I am in my adinava stage, but I can still function well, despite increasing discomforts. Of course, dangers become more apparent as one gets to the nissarana stage.
@Atlas: Sorry. I do not know the name of the sutta. I got this information from a recorded discourse by my late teacher, Waharaka Thero. He did not quote the sutta.
If I come across it, I will post it here. But hopefully someone at the forum may know which sutta it is. Yes. It should be in the Pali Canon.
The post SengKiat suggested to answer Siebe‘s question is good.
I just wanted to clarify it a bit more, because I think this is important.
The sutta is “Dutiya Ssotāpanna Sutta (SN 48.3)“, and is short: “Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Saddhindriyaṃ, vīriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ. Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako imesaṃ pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako sotāpanno avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’ti“.
Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are five indriyas: faith, effort, mindfulness (sati), samadhi, and wisdom (panna). A Noble Person who fully understands the nature of matter (yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti) and thus that those five indriya go through the assada (peak stage), adinava (decay stage), and the nissarana (destruction stage) is definitely a Sotapanna, and will not fall from that attainment”.
There is a deeper understanding here, that involves the five stages of a sankata: udayangama, attangama, assada, adinava, nissarana. The above verse skipped the first two stages, but it is clear that is what is meant.
The link that SengKiat has given is only the introduction of a whole section: “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana“.
The key point is that a given person (just like any sankata) undergoes those five stages, which in this life means one’s physical body. Even though the mental body (gandhabba) could still be in early stages of its human bhava, the physical body ages and dies.
In particular, the brain function starts degrading after the middle age. The five indriya also start degrading as the brain degrades. This is something many people seem to disregard. One’s concentration, energy, and brain capacity will decrease with age, and thus all five indriya will go down in strength and of course will die with the physical body.
There is a sutta that emphasizes the importance of cultivating the Path before getting too old. Once the Buddha was travelling with bhikkhus and showed them an old couple begging in the street. They had been very rich but had lost all their wealth and were now quite old and weak. The Buddha told the monks that they both had the capacity to attain higher magga phala if they made an effort in their young age. Even if they started at the middle age, he told them, they could have attained the Sotapanna stage. But now they both were very weak, and had run out of time.
This is really an important point. We need to make as much progress as possible while our brains are still functioning well.
At a deeper level, the understanding is tied to the true nature of matter (yathā bhūta) that exists in this world, one is said to have the yathābhūta ñāna. See: “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“.
Siebe said: “Even killing, stealing, lying, i would not say this cannot be done with any good intentions.”
I am surprised that you have read so many suttas and have not grasped the basics of Buddha Dhamma. In a way, I should not be surprised because Buddha Dhamma is being treated like philosophy these days. Each one tries to transform Buddha Dhamma to one’s own likings and biases. Secular Buddhists do not like rebirth, for example. But I have not seen that many who doubt that dasa akusala are inherently bad.
To quote from the “Sammā Diṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9)“: “Yato kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako akusalañca pajānāti, akusalamūlañca pajānāti, kusalañca pajānāti, kusalamūlañca pajānāti—ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako sammādiṭṭhi hoti,..”
Translated: ““When, friends, a Noble disciple understands the unwholesome (akusala) and the root of the unwholesome (lobha, dosa, moha), the wholesome (kusala) and the root of the wholesome (alobha, adosa, amoha), in that way he is one of right view,..”.
I am closing this topic too. Please keep in mind that this forum is not for philosophical discussions.
The benefits of staying away from dasa akusala need to experienced, not debated.
This is what I have tried to explain at the first several posts in the “Living Dhamma” section. The basis of the Satipatthana meditation is the verse “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam“, that appears over and over in all sections of the sutta.
The above verse basically says to experience the cooling down the fires in the mind (atapi), by staying away from excess greed and hate (which also requires getting rid of the ten types of micca ditthi); see, “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“.
Abhijja (abhi + icca) and domanassa (do + manasa) are two critical akusala done by the mind, based on micca ditthi, the third one done by the mind. When greed and hate are controlled, others done by body and speech can be controlled. Of course, all dasa akusala are removed only at the Arahant stage.
There are many posts at the website (especially in the “Moral Living and Fundamentals” and “Living Dhamma” sections that discuss the importance of a good knowledge of dasa akusala as a pre-requisite for Buddha Dhamma.
Siebe said: “I do not agree stress-release comes with staying away from dasa akusala.”
This is getting to be a philosophical discussion. This forum is not a platform for philosophy, where people just go back and forth trying to push their views.
I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything. Just explaining what the Buddha taught according to the Tipitaka. I would be happy to discuss any incompatibilities that exist within the website or with the Tipitaka.
I have tried to explain over and over that Buddha Dhamma is based on getting away from dasa akusala. You don’t need to accept that, but then this website or the forum will not be any use for you and discussions like this will not be useful to others either.
Trying to understand Buddha’s message without realizing the consequences of dasa akusala, is like trying to learn multiplication without learning addition. I am getting tired of saying this over and over.
I am closing this topic. Please be considerate to others, and keep this in mind if you have other questions and want to open a new topic on a different subject.
