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Thanks, Johnny.
Your second reference is good, and I have just revised the post again to include that with another bullet added.
I normally do not give references to English translations of a sutta, but this one good. So, here is the second reference from Johnny: “Pañcakanga Sutta“.
Nibbanic bliss (and the bliss in saññāvedayita nirōdha samāpatti) is not a cetasika vedana, which would belong to this world. I have compared it to the relief one feels when a long-experienced migraine headache finally goes away (in the “Nibbana” subsetion). The above sutta explains too that it is not a cetasika vedana.
However, the first reference does not give a Tipitaka reference. It just makes a statement, which seems to be incorrect based on the Mahāvedalla Sutta (MN 43) as I described in the revised post.
Hi Johnny. You said: “I came across 2 Pali words: Vedayita-sukha (happiness based on feeling); Avedayita-sukha (happiness without feeling)”
I just revised the post to include two Tipitaka references.
Under new #12, “This also clarifies that saññāvedayita means without any saññā or vedana.” Also, #13 is revised.So, it is possible that avedayita sukha means with saññā or vedana.
Can you provide a reference where those two words are described/mentioned?
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address more remaining questions.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them here. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address some of the questions one may still have.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them under the topic “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address your question.
This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.
If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them under the topic “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.
Akvan said: “So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati.“
This is part of the quote that I gave from the sutta in my response. I have highlighted that and its translation there too. That means “He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue.”
You also said, “All explanations of first jhana (ariya or anariya) mention viviccha kamehi, viviccha akusalehi dhammehi, which means abstaining from kama.” That is correct too. It just says one has “withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala”, and leaves it open whether it is just suppression (vikkhambana pahana) or permanent removal (ucceda pahana).
So when you said, “This rebirth in the Brahma realm (for an ariya or anariya) is due to the gathi of the person and not due to a magga pala. yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”, that is correct. Both are born in that brahma realm.
But in the same verse below that (which I also highlighted in my earlier response) explains what happens to a normal human and an Araiya after that life in the brahma realm comes to an end. The anariya, who had only suppressed kama raga (vikkhambana pahana) to get to the first jhana, comes back and may be born in apayas. But the Ariya (disciple of the Blessed One), who had removed kama raga (ucceda pahana), attains Parinibbana without coming back to kama loka.
So, when you said, “For an ariya, he does not return to this world and therefore could be called an anagami, however it does not necessarily mean that he has attained anagami pala.”, that is NOT correct. It is effectively the same, since he will get the phala moment there and then be reborn in a suddhavasa reserved for Anagamis. Anagami means “na agami” or not coming back to the kama loka. For that, he would have removed (ucceda pahana) kama raga.
This is a grave error made by even some followers of Waharaka Thero in Sri Lanka these days, even though Waharaka Thero has clarified this in his dessnas. The following is such a desna, and of course it is in Sinhala: “Ariya and Anariya Jhana“.
That is why I am emphasizing this. But of course, it is up to each individual to decide for oneself.
Y not said: “..What I meant was unselfishness in all its aspects..”.
One’s intention is ALWAYS contaminated to some level unless Tilakkhana are FULLY comprehended, which happens only at the Arahant stage.
And that level of ignorance is embedded in sanna at ALL times. One may think that one is giving without any expectations of getting something in return, but that is not correct. However, that is how one makes progress. That act of giving has merits; it will make it easier for one to comprehend Tilakkhana. That is a part of completing the mundane eightfold path.
You may be able to get a better idea when you listen to the second discourse. If not, I can incorporate more on this issue at the next discourse. This is an important but a deeper point.
y not said: ” Are you sure you do not meean ‘It does not explain how giving dana by itself CAN lead to the Anagami stage.’?”
No. I meant the opposite.
This is a VERY IMPORTANT point. In fact, grasping anicca nature is very much related to it.
One would NOT really have the mindset to give “without expecting something in return” at least in the “subconscious” if one does not have some understanding of Tilakkhana. Otherwise, attaining Nibbana would be much easier, and a Buddha would not be needed.
This is why I said that from the English or Sinhala translations at Sutta Central do not really explain the difference between the last category where one gets to the Anagami stage, and all other categories where one is born in a higher realm due to giving, but would end up in the apayas in the future.
One ALWAYS has “sanna vipallasa“, unless one comprehends Tilakkhana to some extent. That understanding increasing with higher magga phala, and “sanna vipallasa” completely goes away only at the Arahant stage.
I just published the second discourse on Tilakkhana at “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Anyone interested should listen to that and it is better to move this discussion to the forum for discourse 2 that I just opened. Those two desanas (and the relevant posts mentioned there) need to be listened to (and read) carefully in order to comprehend this point, and in essence, Tilakkhana.
We can come back to this discussion later if needed. But for now, it is essential to understand those two discourses.
I am glad that you brought up this sutta at the right time.
@y not: You are right. The English version has the full description. But the Pali and the Sinhala versions, which I looked at, do not. I normally look at those two versions, and not the English version. In this case I should have.
As far as the English translation: Translation is good for the most part, except for where it really counts. It does not explain how giving dana by itself cannot lead to the Anagami stage.
Yes. Your point that one does not need to attain jhanas to get to the Anagami stage was correct. I mentioned that in my first response.
I was not refuting your statement. I was merely pointing out the “meat” in the sutta that most translations miss: Exactly how one can get to the Anagami stage by dana or giving. It is not just the act of giving. One has to have the right mindset, and that comes from grasping Tilakkhana; that last part about the Tilakkhana and “sanna vipallasa“, is the “meat” or the essence.
In most translations, an effort is not made to point out the critical aspect of a sutta. They merely translate “word-to-word”. Most suttas are uddesa (condensed) version. One needs to explain in detail what that condensed version says; see, “Sutta – Introduction“.
Yes. Sometimes it appears that some ways of detailing things are different from suttas to Abhidhamma. For example, suttas list 4 rupavacara jhanas, and Abhidhamma lists five. It turns out that the first jhana in the suttas can actually split to two, where vitakka and vicara are suppressed in two stages.
But most people do not experience two stages, and that is why the suttas mention 4 instead of five.
Abhidhamma is very refined. So, I expect that we may able to resolve this issue about the samyojana at some point.
I did check and Abhidhamma version is a bit different from the suttas which state the 10 samyojana as: sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa, kama raga, patigha as five orambhagiya samyojana (removed by the Anagami stage) and rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja (removed at the Arahant stage).
For Abhidhamma: Khuddhavatthu Vibhanaga, Dasaka Niddesa: “Tattha katamāni dasa saṃyojanāni? ¬Kāmarā¬ga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, paṭi¬gha¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, mānasaṃyojanaṃ, diṭṭhi¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, vici¬kicchā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, sīlab¬bata¬parāmā¬sa¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, bhava-rāga¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, issāsaṃyojanaṃ, maccha¬ri¬ya¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ, avijjā¬saṃ¬yoja¬naṃ—imāni dasa saṃyojanāni.”.
Bhavaraga, issa, macchariya instead of rupa raga, arupa raga, uddacca in the suttas. So, these differences are in the higher 5 samyojana.
Now, bhava raga could be the same as rupa raga and arupa raga, since kama raga is already removed by Anagami stage.
Therefore, issa and macchariya seem to represent uddacca. I do not know the answer to why that is. Hopefully, the answer will be found soon.It needs to be kept in mind that all these are highly reduced by the time one gets to the Anagami stage. For example, an Anagami would not have issa (jealousy) at the level of a normal human. So, it could be that whether it is uddacca or a combination of issa and macchariya, that represents the “sense of me” that we have talked a lot about under various topics at this discussion forum.
@y not : “ It turns out that Suttacental does have the full text after all!”
No. The Sutta Central version does not have details about different births, other than Anagami, for “other types on state of mind”.
Regarding sanna vipllasa: Those sanna vipallasa are removed permanently at different levels at different stages of magga phala. A significant part is removed at the Sotapanna stage (regarding apayagami akusala), and those regarding sense plessures are reduced at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage. All (including jhanic pleasures) are removed at the Arahant stage.
When they are removed with magga phala, they do not come back even if one is reborn in another galaxy or anywhere in this world, if that is what you were asking.
@ y not: Yes. There are many suttas such as the one you quoted (which I had not read), where it is shown that magga phala can be attained without going through any jhana.
But this sutta is interesting in that it says Anagami stage is possible by alms giving or making offerings (dana).
On the surface it appears that one may not need to have a comprehension of Tilakkhana or the Four Noble Truths in order to attain the Anagami stage.
The relevant passage is at the end of the Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52: “yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha-citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘sāhu dānan’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘dinnapubbaṃ katapubbaṃ pitupitāmahehi na arahāmi porāṇaṃ kulavaṃsaṃ hāpetun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘ahaṃ pacāmi, ime na pacanti, nārahāmi pacanto apacantānaṃ dānaṃ adātun’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘yathā tesaṃ pubbakānaṃ isīnaṃ tāni mahāyaññāni ahesuṃ, seyyathidaṃ—aṭṭhakassa vāmakassa vāmadevassa vessāmittassa yamadaggino aṅgīrasassa bhāradvājassa vāseṭṭhassa kassapassa bhaguno, evaṃ me ayaṃ dānasaṃvibhāgo bhavissatī’ti dānaṃ deti; napi ‘imaṃ me dānaṃ dadato cittaṃ pasīdati, attamanatā somanassaṃ upajāyatī’ti dānaṃ deti; api ca kho cit¬tā¬laṅkā¬ra¬citta¬parik¬khā¬raṃ dānaṃ deti. So taṃ dānaṃ datvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. So taṃ kammaṃ khepetvā taṃ iddhiṃ taṃ yasaṃ taṃ ādhipaccaṃ anāgāmī hoti anāgantā itthattaṃ.”
However, in order to have that mindset (“yvāyaṃ na heva sāpekho dānaṃ deti; na pati¬baddha¬citto dānaṃ deti; na sannidhipekho dānaṃ deti; na ‘imaṃ pecca pari¬bhuñjis¬sāmī’ti dānaṃ deti;..”), one has to comprehend Tilakkhana.
This is what I will be discussing in the next desana on Tilakkhana. The ‘right mindest” comes with anicca sanna.
A normal human does pretty much everything with the nicca sanna. Therefore, even when giving, even if one may not be thinking about “getting something in return”, that sanna is with that person. In suttas this is called “sanna vipallasa”. In Sinhala it is called “vipareetha sanna”. I have used the phrase “vipareetha sanna” in several posts, I need to change that to provide the Pali phrase “sanna vipallasa”.
You can do a search at the Puredhamma site with the key word “vipareetha sanna” and there are several posts.
The bottom line is that in order to have the right mindset to reap more benefits of giving, one must have the anicca sanna to some level. That anicca sanna must be at a high level to reap higher benefits of giving and to become an Anagami.
I will try to incorporate this to the next desana on Tilakkhana, because it is an important point. Thanks to y not for the comment.
Finally, to provide the web link, type the title (say, the name of a sutta), select it, and then click “link” on the formatting options. That will open a link window, asking for the url of the web page. Now open that web link in a different window, copy it and paste it. You may also want to select “open in a new window”, so that the reader can access that web page in a different window, while staying in the forum.
Here is the web page that y not referred to: Generosity, dana, caga
It is simple and will save a lot time for others to try to find the web page. Thanks.
@y not: The Sutta Central Danamahapphala Sutta AN 7.52 does not have the full version (even in the Pali version).
Could you provide the reference where the 6 realms of rebirths are actually listed?
Thanks, Akvan.
I had not read the kama sutta that you quoted. It is VERY long.
We need to be very careful about the descriptions in various suttas. Some of them discuss just jhana in general, which seem to be anariya jhana. But a few suttas like the Jhana Sutta that you quoted refer clearly to Ariya jhanas.
I found the following sutta which clearly state the difference between Ariya and anariya jhanas. I need to add this sutta reference to one of those posts at the website that I referred to.
Paṭhamanānākaraṇa Sutta (AN 4. 123): “ Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati. Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tab¬bahu¬la-vihārī aparihīno kālaṃ kurumāno brahma¬kāyikā¬naṃ devānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjati. Brahma¬kāyikā-naṃ, bhikkhave, devānaṃ kappo āyuppamāṇaṃ. Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchā¬na¬yonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati. Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā tasmiṃyeva bhave parinibbāyati. Ayaṃ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṃ adhippayāso idaṃ nānākaraṇaṃ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṃ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.”
Translated: “There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality (kāma), withdrawn from akusala, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there—fixed on that, dwelling there often, not losing the jhana—then when he dies he is born with the devas of Brahma’s retinue. The devas of Brahma’s retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal realm, or to the state of the hungry ghosts. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, attains Parinibbana. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between a Noble disciple and a normal person who had not heard the Noble Truths (assutavatā puthujjanena), in regards to the gati and birth.”
I hope this answers your root question. As I discussed in those posts at the website, when one attains the first Ariya jhana, one has become an Anagami. He/she will be born in that brahma realm and will attain Parinibbana there, as clearly stated in the above sutta.
In other words, kama raga is to be completely REMOVED to get to the first Ariya Jhana. It is only temporarily suppressed (vikkhambana pahana) for the anariya jhana.
