January 19, 2018 at 9:24 am #13745C. SaketParticipant
A heartfelt greetings to everyone !
May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with you all !
I read somewhere that there are two kinds of Arahants :
(1) Panna vimutti Arahants
(2) Cheto vimutti Arahants
What is the difference between the two ?
If suppose someone becomes a panna vimutti Arahant and dies without becoming a cheto vimutti Arahant, then in this case will he/she be reborn anywhere in this world ?
Or is he/she will remain in the Antaraparinibbana state (as a gandhabba) untill he/she attains cheto vimutti ?
What happens when the kammic energy for the human bhava is exhausted before doing that ?
January 19, 2018 at 8:42 pm #13758SengKiatModerator
As the name Arahant imply that when the Arahant passes away they will not be in this world of 31 realms, so all other questions are not relevant except “What is the difference between the two ?”
The different between Panna vimutti and Cheto vimutti is as stated below:
vimutti：’deliverance’，is of 2 kinds：deliverance of mind （ceto-vimutti，q．v．） and deliverance through wisdom （paññā-vimutti，q．v．）．
The best example is the two chief deciples of the Buddha, Ven. Sariputta (by panna vimutti) and Ven. Mongallana (by cetto vimutti). The main difference is in the method of bhavana where one gained liberation through wisdom (panna vimutti) and the other by cessation of mind (cetto vimutti).
January 19, 2018 at 10:10 pm #13765
I agree with SengKiat‘s comments.
But there is a cetovimutti attained by anariyas like Alara Kalama at the time of the Buddha. That is not Nibbana.
When a Noble Person attains Nibbana via jhanas, he/she attains akuppa cetovimutti (akuppa means “unshakable”); see “Ascendance to Nibbāna via Jhāna (Dhyāna)“.
Either way (pannavimutti or akuppa cetovimutti) the end result is Nibbana.
January 21, 2018 at 5:30 pm #13802AkvanParticipant
In the Datukatha Puggala Pannaththi some of these terms are explained. I have translated them (and some others) to English from the Sinhala and Pali based on my understanding.
Ubathobaga Vimuttho – Someone who experiences the Ashta Vimokka while living and eliminated all defilements (ashrawa) through understanding (pragna).
Pragna Vimuttho – Someone who does not experience the Ashta Vimokka but has eliminated all defilements through understanding.
Kaya Sakki – A person who experiences the Ashta Vimokka while living and has eliminated some of the defilements.
There is no explanation about a Chetho Vimuttho person. However there is mention about Cheto Vimutthing and Pragna Vimutthing, where it is mentioned that a person who still has defilements has not experienced chetho vimutthing or pragna vimutthing. In all the explanations, it is mentioned that all defilements are eliminated through understanding (pragna).
From these explanations I feel that a Chetho Vimuktha Arahanth may be actually referring to a Ubathobaga Vimutta person.
January 22, 2018 at 8:53 am #13814
Akavan said: “There is no explanation about a Chetho Vimuttho person”.
The Buddha attained the Buddhahood via akuppa cetovimutti. How he went up the “Ariya jhana ladder” on the night of attaining the Buddhahood is described in detail in the “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)”. The sutta ends with the Buddha declaring:”..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me cetovimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
As pointed out in the “Maha Nidana Sutta (Digha Nikāya 15)”, when one attains the akuppa cetovimutti, one automatically becomes an ubhatovimutti.
Furthermore, it appears that a Pannavimutti Arahant could become an Ubhatovimutti by cultivating jhana.
As we have emphasized before, all types of Arahants, and even the Buddha, gets to the same Nibbana. They all attain Parinibbana (full release) upon the death of the physical body.
February 25, 2019 at 4:54 pm #22106Anonymous
Seng Kiat, I encountered this unusual statement in some Sutta: Ananda was asking the Buddha about the difference between panna vimutta and ceto vimutta and the Buddha gave in this particular Sutta somehow unexpected answer, that Ven. Sariputta was panna vimuta and Maha Moggallana was ceto vimutta. (Mostly in the Canon Maha Moggallana is declared by Buddha to be both: cetto as well as panna vimutta.) Anyway, I was now looking with my friend trying to find that Sutta – we could not find it. Do you know the Name of that unusual Sutta?
February 25, 2019 at 6:35 pm #22109ChristianParticipant
Sevetha bhikkhave, Sāriputta-Moggallāne. Bhajatha bhikkhave, Sāriputta-Moggallāne. Paṇḍitā bhikkhū anuggāhakā sabrahmacārīnaɱ. Seyyathāpī bhikkhave, janetti evaɱ Sāriputto. Seyyathā pi jātassa āpādetā evaɱ kho Moggallāno. Sāriputto bhikkhave, sotāpattiphale vineti. Moggallāno uttamatthe. Sāriputto bhikkhave, pahoti cattāri ariyasaccāni vitthārena ācikkhituɱ desetuɱ paññāpetuɱ paṭṭhapetuɱ vivarituɱ vibhajituɱ uttānīkātunti
I remember something like this when Buddha mentions attend Sariputta for stream entry Path and Moggallanna for Arahantship
February 26, 2019 at 3:27 am #22111SengKiatModerator
@Tealer, I am not able to find that sutta that you refer to. Maybe some user here will be able to find it.
Here is a description of the word vimutti:
Vimutti (Pāli, ‘freedom’, ‘release’, ‘deliverance’). Freedom from suffering (dukkha), the goal of the Buddhist path. Canonical Buddhism distinguishes two kinds: freedom through understanding (pañña-vimutti) and freedom of mind (ceto-vimutti). The former means final release from suffering, the ending of rebirth, nibbāna, and is so named because it is brought about by understanding (pañña) which develops out of the practice of insight meditation (vipassanā). The latter represents the qualified freedom from suffering which arises out of the practice of concentration meditation (samādhi), Ceto-vimutti can only become permanent and unshakeable (akuppa), synonymous with final release, if it is combined with paññāvimutti, that is, if the meditator cultivates insight as well as concentration.
From the above description, it would means that for a Ceto-vimutti it would need to be both way liberated (“ubhatobhāgavimutto“).
February 26, 2019 at 11:04 am #22124Anonymous
Even so, thank you, Seng Kiat. You probably feel, why I am collecting the different statements about ceto-vimutti: the different references are confusing and sometimes even slightly contradicting itself: one reference says that ceto-vimutti means skill in arupa-jhana, another that even rupa-jhana makes that qualification, another says high level of BrahmaViharas do that job – and then there is a Sutta, where the Buddha says that only panna-vimutta and the ubhatobhaga-vimutta have completed that what should be done, all others have still to practice. The discussions here helped me to understand that there are different levels of ceto-vimutti in the Suttas; there are not different levels of panna-vimutti to my knowledge. Panna alone can have different depth and extent, but panna-vimutti means only one definite thing.
Seng Kiat, you seem to be knowledgeable; it may be of some interest for you: only recently, after 45 years on the Dhamma path, I came to the surprising conclusion that the Buddha originally did not teach intuitive insight into 3 characteristic of everything – anicca-dukha-anatta ti-lakkhana (= that, what is so central in modern ways of insight practice). He taught to awake and rouse up the sanna-perception of anicca-dukkha-anatta of everything. Only after the Parinibbana of the Buddha the areas of panna-wisdom were rapidly enlarged, deepened and developed into Theravada and its Abhidhamma. I have still respect for these later additions, even knowing that it is not original. Todays ‘vipassana’ insight practice helped so many.
February 27, 2019 at 6:06 am #22133
@Tealer: I think we can resolve this issue if you can provide the key suttas which led to your conclusions.
February 27, 2019 at 3:53 pm #22143Anonymous
Lal, by collecting the references from the Scriptures, I think, the issue is resolved by itself.
Majj.43 “Mahavedallasutta”: In this Sutta Ven. Sariputta enumerates about 12 kinds of ceto-vimutti:
the 4th rupa-jhana – adukkhamasukhāya cetovimuttiyā
4 Fruitions phala = signless deliverance of mind – animittāya cetovimuttiyā
deliverance of mind through nothingness – ākiñcaññā cetovimutti
deliverance of mind through voidness – suññatā cetovimutti
4 Brahma viharas = immeasurable deliverance of mind – appamāṇā cetovimutti
unshakeable deliverance of mind – akuppā cetovimutti
In Majj. 127 “Anuruddha Sutta” Ven. Anuruddha explains “exalted deliverance of mind – mahaggatā cetovimutti” as kasina-rupa-jhana = all 4 rupa-jhana.
In Majj. 70 “Kitagiri Sutta” the Buddha explains that only “one liberated-in-both-ways – ubhatobhāgavimutto” and “one liberated-by-wisdom – paññāvimutto” have finished what was to be donne, all the others still have to practice. But in this Sutta the ceto-vimutti is not mentioned, it is not the main objective, Buddha speaks here about 7 kinds of persons-puggala and the topic is vimokkhā, (not vimutti).
(The strange idea that arahata-magge is ceto-vimutti and arahata-phala is panna-vimutti is probably only a personal idea of somebody, who tried to solve the controversy that Ven. Sariputta was panna-vimutti and Maha Moggallana was ceto-vimutti. I don’t think it has any foundation in the Scriptures.)
Here are the references you asked for – all from Majj.43 “Mahavedallasutta”:
“Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither-painful-nor-pleasant deliverance of mind: here, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither-painful-nor-pleasant deliverance of mind.”
“Cattāro kho, āvuso, paccayā adukkhamasukhāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā. Idhāvuso, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthangamā adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Ime kho, āvuso, cattāro paccayā adukkhamasukhāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā”ti.
“Friend, there are two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and attention to the signless element. These are the two conditions for the attainment of the signless deliverance of mind.”
Note: The “signless deliverance of mind” animittā cetovimutti is the attainment of fruition; the “signs” are objects such as forms, etc.; the “signless element” is Nibbāna (even of a Sotapanna).
“Dve kho, āvuso, paccayā animittāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā– sabbanimittānañca amanasikāro, animittāya ca dhātuyā manasikāro. Ime kho, āvuso, dve paccayā animittāya cetovimuttiyā samāpattiyā”ti.
“Friend, the immeasurable deliverance of mind, the deliverance of mind through nothingness, the deliverance of mind through voidness, and the signless deliverance of mind: there is a way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name, and there is a way in which they are one in meaning and different only in name.
“Yā cāyaṁ, āvuso, appamāṇā cetovimutti, yā ca ākiñcaññā cetovimutti, yā ca suññatā cetovimutti, yā ca animittā cetovimutti—atthi kho, āvuso, pariyāyo yaṁ pariyāyaṁ āgamma ime dhammā nānātthā ceva nānābyañjanā ca; atthi ca kho, āvuso, pariyāyo yaṁ pariyāyaṁ āgamma ime dhammā ekatthā, byañjanameva nānaṁ.
Here a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will. He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion…He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with altruistic joy…He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with equanimity, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will. This is called the immeasurable deliverance of mind.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhu mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṁ disaṁ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṁ, tathā tatiyaṁ, tathā catutthaṁ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṁ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṁ lokaṁ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyābajjhena pharitvā viharati. Karuṇāsahagatena cetasā … pe … muditāsahagatena cetasā … upekkhāsahagatena cetasā ekaṁ disaṁ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṁ, tathā tatiyaṁ, tathā catutthaṁ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṁ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṁ lokaṁ upekkhāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyābajjhena pharitvā viharati. Ayaṁ vuccatāvuso, appamāṇā cetovimutti.
Here, with the complete surmounting of the base of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing,’ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. This is called the deliverance of mind through nothingness.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma natthi kiñcīti ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati. Ayaṁ vuccatāvuso, ākiñcaññā cetovimutti.
Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, reflects thus: ‘This is void of a self or of what belongs to a self.’ This is called the deliverance of mind through voidness.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘suññamidaṁ attena vā attaniyena vā’ti. Ayaṁ vuccatāvuso, suññatā cetovimutti.
Here, with non-attention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the signless concentration of mind. This is called the signless deliverance of mind. This is the way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name.
Note: Of the four deliverances of mind mentioned in verse 30, this one alone is supramundane. The first three—the brahmavihāras, the third immaterial attainment, and insight into the voidness of formations—all pertain to the mundane level.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhu sabbanimittānaṁ amanasikārā animittaṁ cetosamādhiṁ upasampajja viharati. Ayaṁ vuccatāvuso, animittā cetovimutti. Ayaṁ kho, āvuso, pariyāyo yaṁ pariyāyaṁ āgamma ime dhammā nānātthā ceva nānābyañjanā ca.
In a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed, these are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with so that they are no longer subject to future arising. Of all the kinds of immeasurable deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best. Now that unshakeable deliverance of mind is void of lust, void of hate, void of delusion.
Note: There are twelve immeasurable deliverances of mind: the four brahmavihāras, the four paths, and the four fruits. The unshakeable deliverance of mind is the fruit of arahantship. The statement that this unshakeable deliverance is void of lust, hate, and delusion also identifies it as the supramundane deliverance of mind through voidness.
Te khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvankatā āyatiṁ anuppādadhammā. Yāvatā kho, āvuso, appamāṇā cetovimuttiyo, akuppā tāsaṁ cetovimutti aggamakkhāyati. Sā kho panākuppā cetovimutti suññā rāgena, suññā dosena, suññā mohena.
February 28, 2019 at 11:01 am #22198
Thank you, Tealer, for the detailed posting.
I think it is a good idea to first see the difference between cetovimutti and pannavimutti Arahants.
– I had started writing a post on the Tapussa Sutta that explains this well. So, I was able to finish it today, and I just published it:
“Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)– Akuppā Cētōvimutti”
We can discuss more if you have questions. Please refer to the bullet numbers in the post, if you ask specific questions on it.
March 2, 2019 at 4:04 pm #22236Anonymous
Lal – thank you very much for the Tapussa Sutta rendering – without your explanation the Sutta would seem to be somehow confusing. Only the last line in your comment to the Sutta made me careful: “…It is also clear that a paññāvimutti Arahant cannot get to the saññā vedayita nirodha state during his/her lifetime.” In Burmese Mahasi Meditation Centre the successful yogis are led into gradually extended “phala-sammāpatti” – up to 2 hours. I would take the Mahasi style of meditation practice as a nowadays way to paññāvimutti realization (- though Ven. Mahasi would recommend his instruction for first and second degree of realization. For anāgāmī realization, it is believed in Myanmar, that jhanas are indispensable). Phala-sammāpatti I understand as saññā vedayita nirodha. For my understanding, Magga and phala itself (and the phala-sammāpatti even more) is a special kind of jhanic experience. So even the paññāvimutti Arahat must have at least some jhanic moments. Please comment on that.
Another point: do you think that every ubhatobhāga-vimutta must be (beside paññāvimutta) also akuppā cetovimutta?
March 2, 2019 at 6:12 pm #22239
You are welcome, Tealer!
You said: ‘ Phala-sammāpatti I understand as saññā vedayita nirodha.”
- saññā vedayita nirodha is the phala samapatti corresponding to the Arahant phala.
- Phala samapatti for lower stages of Nibbana are different. For example, a Sotapanna could cultivate Sotapanna phala samapatti.
You wrote: “For my understanding, Magga and phala itself (and the phala-sammāpatti even more) is a special kind of jhanic experience.”
As explained in the post, “Pannāvimutti – Arahanthood without Jhāna“, one could get to magga and phala without going through jhana.
You wrote: “So even the paññāvimutti Arahat must have at least some jhanic moments.”
It is possible that a paññāvimutti Arahant may automatically get to the first Ariya jhana. I am not certain about that. Of course, he/she would be easily able to cultivate jhanas after the Arahanthood.
– However, the Abhidhamma description of any magga phala involves only a gotrabu (change of lineage) citta; see at the end of the following post for a a short description: “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.
You asked: “do you think that every ubhatobhāga-vimutta must be (beside paññāvimutta) also akuppā cetovimutta?”
Ubhatobhāga Arahant means one who is liberated “both ways”.
– a cetovimutti ARAHANT is, by definition, an Ubhatobhāga Arahant.
– a paññāvimutti Arahant can become an Ubhatobhāga Arahant by cultivating jhana and getting to saññā vedayita nirodha.
You may be also interested in the post, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)“, which was published today.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.