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upekkha100 seems serious about getting rid of kama raga. That is a noble goal.
I am highlighting some of the key statements from the above posts and providing some suggestions:“So the following is for those in that third camp who want to put Samma Vayama into practise in regards to reducing kama raga through will power(viriya)”.
That is a good resolve. However, it could be better if it is used with two other components.
– In order to get rid of a habit, it would help if one can see the bad consequences. For example, smoking can cause lung cancer.
– In order to see the bad consequences of kama raga, one should see the bad consequences of them. That is why I suggested the following section earlier:
Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana
– When one starts contemplating on those concepts, one will start seeing that what we normally consider to be “pleasures” have hidden dangers. Just like a fish cannot see the dangers in biting a tasty looking bait, normally humans cannot see the dangers in sense pleasures.“I am content with bland food, just for sake of eating/sustenance and staying alive. I went from “live to eat” to “eat to live.”
That is a good sign. You may be starting to comprehend some of these aspects. In my case, my habit of having a alcoholic beverage at the end of the gradually went away, without me really “enforcing it”. But “enforcement” can and should be used to some extent too.
“Compared to the other sense pleasures, I can quite easily quit body pleasures and nose pleasures, cold turkey if need be. And now, I think I can do this for food as well, without missing it so much. But I can’t say the same for beautiful sights. And especially not for music”.
That is good too. Now you have narrowed down your weaknesses to just two.
“So for someone in my situation/with my cravings, what time-limit do you think I should set for music listening(5, 10, 20 minutes)?”
Yes. I think that is good plan.
So, basically if you carry out your plan with a firm determination, together with learning Dhamma, you will be able to succeed.
In the Sabbāsava Sutta, the Buddha listed seven steps to remove the āsavas or cravings:
- Removal by clear vision of the nature of this world. The more one understands Tilakkhana (especially one’s inability to maintain things to one’s satisfaction), less of “sheer effort” (or will power) is needed to overcome kama raga.
- Removal by the restrained use of the senses: not to over-indulge in the senses).
- Removal by good and frequent associations: for example, with good friends and good deeds. Here, good friends are not those who do “partying” and having a good time. They are those who live a simple, moral life, and pursue Dhamma.
- Removal by tolerance and patience. For example, even if one is tempted to steal because one is hungry, one should contemplate the consequences and bear the hunger.
- Removal by staying clear of “bad influences and environments”. One needs to avoid bad friends, bad locations for living (due to floods, bad neighbors, etc), avoiding unsuitable times to go out, etc.
- Removal by getting rid of certain things to lessen the burden on the mind. One needs to get rid of bad thoughts that come to mind, for example, for excessive sense pleasure, hate, etc. Focusing too much on making money or “collecting stuff” is actually a burden on the mind, since one has to worry about their safety.
- Removal by meditation and contemplation. When one understands the above points, it becomes apparent what to contemplate on.
Regarding the #1 above, I would also suggest looking into whether any of the 10 types of miccha ditthi are left.
Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna StageI just updated that post, “What is a Thought?” .
What Dr.J Chakma said above is correct. I just made it a bit more clear (hopefully!).
Thanks for pointing it out, Tobias. This is a bit complex issue. Please let me know if it can be made more clear.
Also, try to quote the post in question, if possible:
How to Reply to a Forum QuestionDr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.
P.S. I just wanted to mention a book that I read recently, which gives a good idea of what it is like in the hell (similar to the descriptions of some suttas): “A Guided Tour of Hell – A Graphic Memoir” by Samuel Bercholz (2016). He first describes an “out-of-body experience” that is similar to many given by others (seeing his body from above), but the second experience is a “trip to the hell”.
upekkha100 wrote: “Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana?”
No. asmi mana is very different from macchariya that I explained above.
– It is the last bit of sense of a “me”.
– For example, an Anagami would have asmi mana but even a Sotapanna would not have macchariya (stinginess).
– In the case of an Anagami, for example, if someone verbally abuses or hits an Anagami, that Anagami would not generate anger. It would only be a displeasure directed at the abuser. But the mindset would be disturbed, and he/she would think, for example, “why is this person so ignorant and is abusing me?”. It is just a trace of a “self”.In any case, I think this discussion has gone far enough. There is no point in debating the difference between envy and jealousy; that would be suitable for a philosophical forum. Google those words and see. They are both at a much higher level than “asmi mana”.
Tien is correct in saying that since she is responding she is generating thoughts (and that would require at least one of the six sense inputs must be coming in), some parts of her brain must be working.
However, even if the woman is totally unconscious, as long as the body temperature does not drop (and the body does not start to decay), she is alive. As long as she is alive, she is able to conceive.
A gandhabba only needs a “zygote” (right chemical composition) to take possession of. That is why it can happen even outside the womb (artificial insemination).
If the woman is truly dead, then the eggs in her womb will also start decaying along with her physical body. In that case, they would not be able to combine with a sperm and make a zygote.
It is a very good question, firewrns.
The key here is to understand what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
This is NOT a pledge that is done without understanding. I know a lot of people who have “blind faith” in the Buddha, but are not even aware of the basic teachings of the Buddha. They may even believe in their hearts that they have “faith” in the Buddha. But the key is unless they truly understand the Dhamma, they cannot have true faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha.
One example from the Tipitaka is queen Mallika, who gave the most expensive alms giving to the Buddha and a very large number of bhikkhus. She was born in an apaya (as a worm). Thus she was not even a Sotapanna Anugami.
To be at least a Sotapanna Anugami one has to “see” the Dhamma: Basically, how one can be born in an apaya if one still has “apayagami gatI”. One has to know how “apayagami gati” are related to that type of sankhara and vinnana (due to avijja), i.e., one needs to understand Paticca Samuppada (and also remove the deeper layer of avijja by beginning to comprehend Tilakkhana). See, “Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations” (and “Viññāna Aggregate” for a deeper analysis of vinnana).
Therefore, both UNDERSTANDING Dhamma, and LIVING (generating/stopping sankhara accordingly) is the key. This was explained in the two posts published recently (which I wrote to dispel this myth about blind faith at the Dhamma Wheel forum):
Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run
Ānapānasati Eliminates Mental Stress PermanentlyIn fact, I started the new subsection, “Essential Buddhism” because I was appalled by the level of ignorance displayed by several people commenting at that forum. They were harassing me because they thought I was teaching wrong Dhamma! But I think at least some are beginning to realize their lack of understanding. It is not their fault. Most publications in English have incorrect or incomplete translations of deep suttas.
As mentioned in that second post:
Understanding Buddha Dhamma is all about understanding the steps in Paticca Samuppāda:“Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati”One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda.”(Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28); at the end).
Also, one needs to understand what is meant by “Buddha”: “bhava uddha” or “stopping future bhava” (and jati or births).
– A Buddha is someone who discovered the way to “stop future bhava” and thus to “stop future suffering”.
– In the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Buddha clearly declared the ultimate goal: “akuppā me vimutti, ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” or “I have attained the ultimate release (from all suffering); this is the last birth, no more births for me”.Finally, in the Vakkali Sutta (SN 22.87), the Buddha told Ven. Vakkali: “Yo kho, vakkali, dhammaṃ passati so maṃ passati; yo maṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati” OR “One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma”.
Therefore, to have true faith, one needs to “see” Dhamma; to see Dhamma, one needs to see Paticca Samuppada; to truly understand Paticca Samuppada, one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana; for that one needs to get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi first.
– Therefore it is a step-by-step process.This “process” is not completed in a single lifetime. Those who get to Arahanthood by just hearing a single verse had fulfilled most of the steps in previous lives.
– We all have fulfilled these to varying levels.
– Some of the progress may even be temporarily hidden (if Sotapanna stage had not been reached in previous lives), and it may be easy to “get it back” if one is exposed to true Dhamma.
– We just need to do our best to advance from wherever we are at this time.No problem, Christian.
It is fine to point out if a clearly wrong statement is made. Let us just make sure to quote the statement and point out why it is wrong.
Christian wrote: “In Kotthita Sutta, Venerable Sariputta explains that the problem is not an eye or music but the craving (on the basis of ignorance)”
Yes. that is correct, and I fully agreed when you wrote that earlier too.
I was just questioning your earlier statement: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”.
No one made such a claim.We need to be careful about not taking another person’s comments out of context.
It is better to QUOTE what another person has written, if a rebuttal is needed. That way, there is no misunderstanding as to what is being refuted.
As I understand, the meanings may be expressed the following ways:
Issa = Envy: X has a bigger house and I have a small one. I am envious of X.
Macchariya (I am not sure whether there is an English word for this; the closest may be “stingy”): I have a lot of wealth, and I do not want others to come asking for donations or trying to rob me. Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth.
Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.
Christian wrote: ” As Sotapanna you can still have cravings especially those deep-rooted ones.”
It is true that a Sotapanna would have kama raga (i.e., he/she would still enjoy sense pleasures).
But he/she would not have jealousy for anyone else having better access to sense pleasures.
– Cravings do not necessarily lead to jealousy.
– It is a step-by-step process. At the next step, Sakadagami would still like sense pleasures, but would not have any desire to OWN objects that provide sense pleasures.Christian wrote: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”
Could you elaborate who said that? I did not see such a statement, but I may have missed it.
upekkha100 wrote: “So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?”
firewns wrote: “For the attainment of sotapanna magga phala, formal meditation techniques are not necessary as one can listen to a desana by a knowledgeable Ariya.”
That is correct: Formal meditation is not necessary (but could be used) for the Sotapanna phala.
But meditation could also be interpreted as contemplation. Contemplation is necessary for any kind progress. One needs to comprehend the “world view” of the Buddha.
firewns other comments are very insightful. When one cultivates sobhana cetasika, it automatically leads to the suppression of asobhana cetasika. Therefore, when one is on the Path, not only immoral thoughts, but also kama raga is reduced (gradually).
Hi Tobias,
Thanks for pointing out the error. I just revised the statement as follows:“A purified mind of an Arahant would have maximized sōbhana cetasika, including paññā (wisdom). Once that is done one would not grasp any bhava at the cuti-patsandhi moment, since one has fully comprehended the futility of any existence in the 31 realms”.
lucas.cambon wrote: “Sotāpanna occurs upon attainment of the seventh stage.”
I think this is a misunderstanding. The completion of the seven visuddhis is the same as completing the Noble Eightfold Path. So, if someone completes them, one would be an Arahant.
Could you provide a Tipitaka reference for a Sotapanna completing all seven visuddhis?
P.S. I just found the following sutta, which confirms what I stated above:
“Ratavinita Sutta (MN 24)“.A fairly good English translation is at:
“Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots“
