[sybe07]

Hi,

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, i.e. the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer (SN48.2-3, translation Bodhi)

To what refers ‘understanding the danger’ in the five faculties?

Understanding the ‘escape’ refers to Nibbana?

kind regards,
Siebe

[SengKiat]

Hi @siebe,

Please read the post Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana – Introduction which explains the danger (adinava).

With Metta,

Seng Kiat

[sybe07]

Hi SengKiat,

I totally agree with the post you refer to. Sense-pleasures are in no way innocent. I can see in my own mind (and also in the mind of others) this addictional habit, this greed for sense-pleasures. People suffer a lot due to this habit.

I never used drugs. I used some alcohol but especially as an adolescent i consumed very much candy and i was fond of sex. Sex was so nice.

I did not see any danger in it and enjoyed the taste of both very much. I eat candy almost any day, a lot, at school, non-stop.

It was a bad respons on my suffering, i belief, but i was not wiser. A lot of times i am still not wiser. I still belief the intention and deeds were not immoral. The view that this indulging in sense-pleasure was a skillful way to deal with my suffering, that was wrong.

But there was also immorality involved, because sometimes i did steal the candy or i did steal money to buy candy. Or sometimes i was so full of lust that i saw a girl as a lust-object. Not good. In the core immorality is due to avijja. We are not wiser. I was not wiser. I can still feel ashamed thinking about certain choices and behaviour.

Now i know that sense-pleasures are not innocent. Anything that triggers the reward-center of the brain, that is potentially dangerous. The brain will ask new reward-inputs. At a certain time the reward-center will ge screaming. This is felt as craving.

One becomes addicted that way and attached to rupa. It is like one is drawn into rupa. One becomes gross. A lot of people with a tendency to become addicted, just like me, get involved in immoral bevaviour without shame anymore. They are hardly accountable for that.

Reward can be anything. Not only candy, or sense-pleasures but also adventures, attention, the feeling of power and also the feeling of being in control which is also very rewarding.

I am not sure this is also true for the faculty of faith, concentration, wisdom, energy and mindfulness. Can they be compared to sense-pleasures?
Can we become addicted to that too? Is that what you mean by seeing danger in them?

Siebe

[Lal]

The post SengKiat suggested to answer Siebe‘s question is good.

I just wanted to clarify it a bit more, because I think this is important.

The sutta is “Dutiya Ssotā­panna Sutta (SN 48.3)“, and is short: “Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Saddhindriyaṃ, vīriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ. Yato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako imesaṃ pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako sotāpanno avini­pāta­dhammo niyato sam­bodhi­parā­yaṇo’ti“.

Translated: “Bhikkhus, there are five indriyas: faith, effort, mindfulness (sati), samadhi, and wisdom (panna). A Noble Person who fully understands the nature of matter (yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti) and thus that those five indriya go through the assada (peak stage), adinava (decay stage), and the nissarana (destruction stage) is definitely a Sotapanna, and will not fall from that attainment”.

There is a deeper understanding here, that involves the five stages of a sankata: udayangama, attangama, assada, adinava, nissarana. The above verse skipped the first two stages, but it is clear that is what is meant.

The link that SengKiat has given is only the introduction of a whole section: “Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana“.

The key point is that a given person (just like any sankata) undergoes those five stages, which in this life means one’s physical body. Even though the mental body (gandhabba) could still be in early stages of its human bhava, the physical body ages and dies.

In particular, the brain function starts degrading after the middle age. The five indriya also start degrading as the brain degrades. This is something many people seem to disregard. One’s concentration, energy, and brain capacity will decrease with age, and thus all five indriya will go down in strength and of course will die with the physical body.

There is a sutta that emphasizes the importance of cultivating the Path before getting too old. Once the Buddha was travelling with bhikkhus and showed them an old couple begging in the street. They had been very rich but had lost all their wealth and were now quite old and weak. The Buddha told the monks that they both had the capacity to attain higher magga phala if they made an effort in their young age. Even if they started at the middle age, he told them, they could have attained the Sotapanna stage. But now they both were very weak, and had run out of time.

This is really an important point. We need to make as much progress as possible while our brains are still functioning well.

At a deeper level, the understanding is tied to the true nature of matter (yathā bhūta) that exists in this world, one is said to have the yathābhūta ñāna. See: “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“.

[sybe07]

Shocking to read your translation Lal. Again it is totally different. In your translation ‘the danger’ is not even mentioned.

But i understand you think ‘seeing the danger’ in those five faculties refers to the understanding that they weaken at old age, so one has to make effort while still young.

kind regards,
Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “But i understand you think ‘seeing the danger’ in those five faculties refers to the understanding that they weaken at old age, so one has to make effort while still young.”

Yes. The adinava stage is where you see more unpleasant things (because the sankata is decaying), and of course as one gets to the end (nissarana stage, like the old couple in the story) dangers increase.

For example, I am in my adinava stage, but I can still function well, despite increasing discomforts. Of course, dangers become more apparent as one gets to the nissarana stage.

[Author]

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