[sybe07]

Sotapanna
(source Sutta-pitaka)

Characteristics of a Sotapanna

-He/she possesses confirmed convidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. He/she possesses the virtues dear to the nobel ones- unbroken, untorn, unblemisehd, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration (SN55.1-4; SN55.7+8+11+30, DN33§1.11(14))

This is also formulated this way: one who has abandoned four things is a stream-enterer. Which four things? Distrust regarding the Triple Gem and one does not have that immorality which the uninstructed wordling possesses, because of which the latter, with the breakup of the body, after death is reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the netherworld, in hell (SN55.13)

-He/she possesses the Noble Eightfold Path (SN55.5)

-Five perils and enmities are eliminated: destroying life, not taken what is not given, engaging in sexual misconduct, falsely speaking, indulging in liquor, wine and intoxicants (AN9.27; AN10.92).

A stream-entrent is not more able to commit the five serious crimes, killing your father, mother, an arahant, creating a Schism in the Sangha and wounding a Buddha. (MN115)

Three chains are fully eliminated, identity-views, doubt, wrong grasp of rules and rituals
(MN2§11, DN6§13, DN19§62, MN22§45. MN68§13, MN118§12).

About the knowledge or understanding of a Sotapanna (this is not complete)

-“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five aggregates subject to clinging, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.” (SN22.109)

-He/she has abondoned any perplexity that which is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after and ranged over by the mind is impermanent and suffering. One does not cling to that. And he/she has abandoned perplexity about the four noble truths (SN24.1)

-A stream-enterer does not have views like this: ‘this body, feeling, perception, volitional formation, consciousness is mine, this i am, this is my self’. He/she has abandoned perplexity in these cases (SN24.2)

A stream-enterer knows paticca samuppada. He/she knows the condition, understands the arising of the condition, understands the cessation of the condition, and the way leading tot he cessation of the condition (SN12.27). Of all the conditions.
He/she understand each condition, its origin, its cessation and the way leading to its cessation (SN12.28). See also SN12.41

He/she understands the origin and the passing away of the world (SN12.49)

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, i.e. the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer (SN48.2-3)

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these six faculties, i.e. the eye-faculty, the ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-faculty, then he is called a noble disciple who is, stream-enterer (SN48.26)

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification. the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, i.e. pleasure faculty, the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity faculty, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.” (SN48.32)

kind regards,
Siebe

[Lal]

@Siebe: Thanks for the nice summary.

However, it must be kept in mind that some of the translations can be improved. For example, one of the above (SN 48.2-3) is discussed in “Seeing danger in the five faculties“.

[Akvan]

Hi Siebe,

Under the Characteristics of a Sotapanna you have mentioned the following;

Point 5 – Five perils and enmities are eliminated: destroying life…
Point 6 – A stream entrant is not more able to commit the five serious crimes; killing your father, mother and arahanth…

This does not make sense because if a sotapanna has eliminated killing all lives, then killing your father, mother, an arahanth does not need to be mentioned separately.

The relevant pali section in AN10.92 is “Pāṇātipātā paṭiviratassa evaṃ taṃ bhayaṃ veraṃ vūpasantaṃ hoti.” Does this mean that a Sotapanna sees the perils of these five aspects (killing life etc.) and therefore tries to stay away from these, rather than completely eliminating them? May be Lal can explain this better.

[Lal]

Akvan said: “The relevant pali section in AN10.92 is “Pāṇātipātā paṭiviratassa evaṃ taṃ bhayaṃ veraṃ vūpasantaṃ hoti.” Does this mean that a Sotapanna sees the perils of these five aspects (killing life etc.) and therefore tries to stay away from these, rather than completely eliminating them?”

That is right. “pativirato” means will not do those things with liking.

But a Sotapanna is absolutely prevented from doing are those five serious crimes: killing one’s father, mother, an Arahant…

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal for the answer. I read something about transgressing trainingsrules in AN3.86. And it also says something about the abilities of a sotapanna (fullfilling virtious behaviour but not yet concencentration and wisdom).

“Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu fulfills virtuous behavior, but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. He falls into offenses in regard to the lesser and minor training rules and rehabilitates himself. For what reason? Because I have not said that he is incapable of this.But in regard to those training rules that are fundamental to the spiritual life,
in conformity with the spiritual life, his behavior is constant and steadfast. Having undertaken the training rules, he trains
in them. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a
stream~enterer> no longer subject to [rebirth in] the lower world,
fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination”.

Unfortunately the notes in the text do not list those lesser and minor trainingsrules which all trainees can transgress, and also not those rules that are fundamental to the spirituel live, but my feeling is, not-killing could be such a rule? Maybe some body else knows more about this.

siebe

[sybe07]

Becoming a Sotapanna

(sutta numbers refer to DN translation Walshe, rest Nikāya translations of Bodhi)

-Four important conditions are described; association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention (see further), practice in accordance with the Dhamma (SN55.50, DN33§1.11(13)). When developed and cultivated they lead to stream-entrance (SN55.55) and they also lead to once return, no more return and arahanthood (SN55.56-58)

-“If a bhikkhu should wish: ‘May I, with the destruction of three fetters, become a stream-enterer, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment, let him fulfil the precepts.. (MN6§11). This is also said for the other stages.
I do not think this means that one will become a stream-enterer just by fulfilling the precepts.

-One has to attend carefully to the five khandha’s subject to clinging. How? As suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself….When, friend, a virtuous bhikkhu carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of stream-entry.” (SN22.122). In this way one can also realise the other three fruits of the holy life.

This way of seeing the khandha’s subject to clinging is applying anicca, dukkha and anatta to the khandha’s. Seeing the khandha’s as alien, empty and nonself is called anattanupassana and also sunnatanupassana. As suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction is dukkhanupassana. As disintegrating is aniccanupassana. In Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Insight, §9, Nanamoli, this is explained.

I personally think this is the main thing. I am curious what others think. I belief applying anicca, dukkha and anatta to our own experiences counteracts sakkaya ditthi, the deeply inbedded tendency to see or view (and therefor experience) the experienced body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses as ‘mine’ and as ‘who i am’, ‘as my self’.
Because we are so identified with the khandha’s or strongly experience them as ‘mine’, any change of them leads to stress. When not identified with the body, feeling etc and not seeing or experiencing them a ‘mine’, there is no stress when they change, which is their nature. Mind is like a mirror. It reflects all kinds of experiences. But if minded is deluded it thinks it IS those reflections or it thinks that the mirror possseses them.

-“Bhikkhus, one thing, when developed and cultivated, leads to realization of the fruit of stream-entry… (597) to realization of the fruit of once-returning… (598) to realization of the fruit of non-returning (599) to realization of the fruit of arahantship. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body. This is the one thing that, when developed and cultivated, leads to realization of the fruit of stream-entry… to realization of the fruit of once-returning…to realization of the fruit of non-returning… to realization of the fruit of arahantship.” (AN1.596 (22)-599(25))

[sybe07]

Benefits of becoming a Sotapanna

-With the complete destruction of the three lower fetters; sakkaya ditthi, doubt and wrong grasp of rituals and rules (sometimes also translated as attachment to rules and rituals) the Sotapanna is no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. This person is freed from hell, the animal realm, and the domain of ghosts, freed from the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. (SN5511+24+30, DN16§2.7, DN18§27 and many other places)

-A lot of suffering is eliminated by not being reborn in planes of misery and for a maximum of 7 times. The soil taken up with a fingernail is compared to the soil of the whole Earth futile. So it is with the suffering that remains for the Sotapanna after eliminating the three lower fetter. (SN13.1)

-The confirmed convidence in the Triple Gem and the virtues of the Sotapanna are four streams of merit, streams of the wholesome, nutriments of happiness (SN55.31 SN55.41-43). These four lead to the destruction of the asava’s. (SN55.38)

-If reborn in heaven or as a human, a Sotapanna has a long life span, will be beautiful, will be endowed with happiness, endowed with fame, endowed with sovereignty. (SN55.22)

-Anguttara Nikāya 6.97 summons six benefits: (1) One is fixed in the good Dhamma; (2) one is incapable of decline; (3) one’s suffering is delimited; (4) one comes to possess knowledge not shared by others; (5) one has clearly seen causation; (6) one has clearly seen causally
arisen phenomena.

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

I like to share this with you and ask for your comment.

It seems like realising Sotapanna stage in the sutta’s is expressed in different ways:

-1. arising of the spotless vision of the Dhamma, or arising spotless Dhamma-eye.

I find it remarkable that in all those places where this is mentioned (MN56§18, SN13.1, SN35.74, (DN2§102), DN3§2.21, DN5§29, DN14§3.15, DN21§2.10) the context is that someone listens to a dhamma-talk and this arising of the spotless dhamma-eye at that moment happens.

To give an example (MN, Bodhi), in MN56§18 it is said this way:

“Then the Blessed One gave the householder Upali progressive instruction, that is, talk on giving, talk on virtue, talk on the heavens; he explained the danger, degradation, and defilement in sensual pleasures and the blessing of renunciation. When he knew that the householder Upali’s mind [380] was ready, receptive,free from hindrances, elated, and confident, he expounded to him the teaching special to the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Just as a clean cloth with all marks removed would take dye evenly, so too, while the householder Upali sat there, the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.”

So the spotless dhamma-eye sees or knows ‘all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.”

Although not specifically mentioned in the sutta’s, according Bodhi (MN, note 588) and Walshe (DN, note 140) this refers to stream-entrence.

I wonder, do you agree?

And, what do you think it means when it is said that the spotless dhamma-eye arises which sees ‘All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation“? Does someone experience cessation at that moment? Some people say one glimpses Nibbana? What dot you think?

In what way is this insight– ‘All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.”–such a big event, such a breaktrough? I think it cannot be some kind of intellectual understand, or? What do you think?

So what is really seen at that moment? For me this is the question.

-2. Breakthrough to the Dhamma.

To give an example (SN, Bodhi), in SN46.30 it is said:

“Then, venerable sir, while I was staying in an empty hut following along with the surge and decline of the five aggregates subject to clinging, I directly knew as it really is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; i directly knew as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma, venerable sir, and have obtained the path which when I have developed and cultivated it, will lead me on, while I am dwelling in the appropriate way, to such a state that I shall understand: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done’.

A breaktrough to the dhamma is also mentioned in SN22.90 and SN46.56. According Bodhi this also refers to realising Sotapanna stage (SNII, note 76 and note 116).

-3. Breaktrough to the four noble truths.

To give an example from SN56.3 (SN, Bodhi)

…”Whatever clansmen in the future will rightly go forth from the household life into homelessness, all will do so in order to make the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever clansmen at present have rightly gone forth from the household life into homelessness, all have done so in order to make the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are”…

This breaktrough is mentioned in SN56.3+4, SN56.26//32/34/35/37/44/51/60.

This breaktrough is very difficult to realise. It is compared to splitting a hair in 7 pieces by an arrow (SN56.45)!

Does this still refer to Sotapanna or maybe to arhantstage?

kind regards,
Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “It seems like realising Sotapanna stage in the sutta’s is expressed in different ways..”.

Yes. It can be expressed in many different ways.
Not only that, but different people attain the Sotapanna stage by “seeing” it in their own ways.

There is a sutta where a bhikkhu was perplexed when hearing different Sotapannas explaining what they understood it to be. The Buddha gave an example of different people describing a certain tree based on what the most significant thing they saw about the tree: how the leaves, fruits, or trunk look like.

Siebe said: “This breaktrough is very difficult to realise. It is compared to splitting a hair in 7 pieces by an arrow (SN56.45)!

Does this still refer to Sotapanna or maybe to arhant stage?”.

That sutta is about the Arahant stage, FULLY comprehending (“yathābhūtaṃ paṭivijjhanti..”) the Four Noble Truths.

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal. Unfortunately I do not know that sutta. Do you, or somebody else, have a reference?

Lal, would you be so kind to express in your own words what breaktrough to sotapanna stage means?

The text say one sees: ‘all that is subject to arising is subject to cessation’ but what does this in a practical sense mean?
Does this refer to seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta and how unfruitful it is to look for happiness and refuge in the conditioned?

Do you agree the breaktrough is a live-changing event or is it not that dramatic?

Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “Thanks Lal. Unfortunately I do not know that sutta. Do you, or somebody else, have a reference?”

When I come across it, I will post it here. Hoepfully, someone else will post it sooner.

Siebe said: “Do you agree the breaktrough is a life-changing event or is it not that dramatic?”.

Of course, one’s life is drastically changed at the phala moment. But it is not like one feels that like a thunder striking.

One realizes that a drastic change had happened over days, weeks. When one thinks back and compare past events to one’s current state of the mind (cooling down), one can see a drastic change. And over time, based on how one responds to certain situations, one can see that too. How I think about what the Sotapanna stage means, is probably evident from my writings. It cannot be put into a single paragraph. But the main thing was the realization that it is unfruitful to do even the slightest “immoral thing” no matter how much one can get back materially (money, fame, etc) by doing it. Another thing is that even if you do something wrong (or not quite optimally), you have a nagging feeling that you should have responded differently for the rest of the day.

[sybe07]

What is meant bij ‘the stream’?

From SN55.5 (translation Bodhi)

…”Sariputta, this is said: ‘The stream, the stream.’ What now Sariputta, is the stream?”
“This Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is the stream; that is: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.”
“Good, good, Sariputta! This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view…right concentration.
“Sariputta, this is said: ‘A stream-enterer, a stream-enterer.’ What now, Sariputta, is a stream-enterer?”
“One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is called a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan.”
“Good, good, Sariputta! One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan.”

I belief, but correct me if i am wrong, MN117 makes clear one has to discern two Path’s, one mundane and one supra-mundane or one mundane and one nobel.

For example the factor right view. There are two kinds. There is mundane right view and nobel. Mundane right view is for example that there is rebirth, a father and mother, results of giving, working of kamma. Regarding this kind of right view it is said (MN117§6) …it “is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment….”. So right view can be affected by taints. This right view is meritorious and leads to high rebirth but does not by itself lead to an ending of the rebirth proces.

And then there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path“.

I belief this last view is meant when it said that a stream-enterer posseses the Nobel Eightfold Path (is this case right view). Not meant is the mundane Path.

Siebe

[Lal]

Siebe said: “I belief this last view is meant when it said that a stream-enterer posseses the Nobel Eightfold Path (is this case right view). Not meant is the mundane Path.”

That is exactly right.

With mundane samma ditthi, one becomes moral (gets rid of the ten types of micca ditthi).

One enters the Noble Path (the Stream) with lokottara (transcendental) Samma Ditthi (by grasping anicca, dukkha, anatta, the Three Characteristics of the world).

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

I think this post might help to get an idea as to whether one has attained the Sotapanna stage or not :

please see – Conditions for the four stages of Nibbana

MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!

[sybe07]

Different kinds of Sotapanna
(Reference: Anguttara Nikāya 3.87 (translation Bodhi))

There are three kinds of Sotapanna mentioned. With the utter destruction of the three fetters it is possibele to become:

-1. a seven-times-at-most attainer (sattakkhattuparama): after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, he/she makes an end of suffering. Bodhi says in note 525 this is the most sluggish of the three.

-2. a family-to-family attainer (kolamkola): after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, he/she makes an end to suffering.

-3. a one-seed attainer (ekabiji); after being reborn once more in human existence, makes an end of suffering.

One can read this sutta also here: https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.87

Siebe

[y not]

This is also stated in AN 9.12 – Saupadisesasutta (with something left over/those who pass away with a residue remaining).

In this Sutta Ven. Sariputta is an attendance when a conversation is taken up by a group of wanderers to the effect that those who pass away ‘with something left over’, i.e. who have not destroyed all 10 fetters, are not free from the apayas.

Ven. Sariputta takes no stand but resolves to refer the matter to the Buddha. The Buddha rebuts the claim of the wanderers, and explains that there are 9 people who ‘have fulfilled ethics and immersion, but have limited wisdom’or ‘have fulfilled virtuous behavior and concentration but cultivated wisdom only to a moderate extent’. The first five refer to the destination of Anagamis,the sixth to Sakadagamis and the last three to:

three different destinations of Sotapannas: (they have destroyed the first three fetters)
-those who are one-seeders (ekabiji ) – They will be reborn just one time in a human existence (ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ)
– those who go family-to-family (kolankolo) – They will transmigrate between two or three families( dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni )
-those who have at most seven births (sattakkhattuparamo) – They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans.(sattakkhattuparamaṃdeve ca manusse )

….’then make an end of suffering’ follows in all three cases. So, the
question arises:
WHAT DETERMINES IN WHICH CLASS OR AT WHAT LEVEL OF SOTAPANNA ONE IS AT? or, WHAT DISTINGUISHES ONE SOTAPANNA FROM ANOTHER?

(The ‘road ahead’ is longer progressing from the 7th to the 9th; the seventh -ekabiji- path, and the eight to a lesser degree, are more time-economical or efficient than that of a Sakadagami in attaining Nibbana – sacrificing the pleasures to be had in a deva existence ‘taken in the bargain’).

Metta to all

[Lal]

To summarize what y not said (or the summary of the sutta) is to indicate the nine type of persons who are free of the apayas, but have not attained the Arahant stage yet:

There are five types of Anagamis, Sakadagami, and three types of Sotapanna.

So, the question is what are the differences among the five types of Anagamis and the three types of Sotapannas.

Those are just differences in understanding of the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, rogata,etc, where the most important first three are called Tilakkhana). I don’t think it is worthwhile to analyze in detail (even if possible) what those differences are.

Even if one does not know any of these details (even what Tilakkhana are in words), one may be able to make progress and attain magga phala by comprehending the unfruitful AND dangerous nature of this world. That is the critical point: understanding the true nature of this world.

At the time of the Buddha, there was no written material for people to read. Many of them did not even know these terms. They just went to listen to the Buddha and WHILE LISTENING understood these characteristics of nature, and attained magga phala at various levels.

This is a key point that is being discussed at this topic too: “Discourse 1 – Nicca, Sukha, Atta“.

P.S. Of course, it is always good to have more details. If someone can explain those nine stages in more detail, that would be appreciated.

[sybe07]

Explaining differences among Sotapanna, Sakadagami’s etc. Lal said:

“Those are just differences in understanding of the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, rogata,etc, where the most important first three are called Tilakkhana)”.

Isn’t it true there is also a difference, yet, in understanding the unconditioned, Nibbana?

From a teacher i understood Nibbana may not be called nicca, sukha and atta as opposed to anicca, dukkha and anatta, because Nibbana cannot be described in a conventional way, or by using conventional terms.

What do you think?

Siebe

[Lal]

“From a teacher i understood Nibbana may not be called nicca, sukha and atta as opposed to anicca, dukkha and anatta..”

We have discussed this many times, and it is fully explained here:”Nibbana“.

If you agree with that teacher, that is fine with me. Please don’t raise this again in this forum, unless you have evidence from the Tipitaka that anything in those posts in the link above is not correct. If you have such evidence, you are welcome to present them. Just refer to the specific post and bullet # where I have stated something that is not correct.

It is irrelevant what any teacher or anyone says, unless evidence from the Tipitaka is presented.

[Akvan]

Ynot asked: What determines in which class or what level of sotapanna one is at?

Like Lal mentioned it has to be determined by the level of understanding of aniccha, dukka, anatta etc. It is simply the level of understanding of them, that one is categorised as a sotapanna or sakadagami etc.

In the Puggalapannatti, these 9 types of people are explained. The explanation is based on the time frame that each person attains nibbana, rather than the reason a person is a specific type.

Only a Buddha, will know and be able to explain the differences in these types and how/why they fall into each category. So even if this was explained (in the tripitaka), we would not be able comprehend and decide which category oneself or others will fall into.

[y not]

“It is simply the level of understanding of them (Tilakkhana), that one is categorised as a sotapanna or sakadagami etc.”

Then, for it to make sense, ekabiji and kolankolo Sotapannas have a better understanding (of Tilakkhana) – and, by extension, have lower levels of greed and hate – than a Sakadagami (!) . And that cannot be the case.

DESIGNATION OF HUMAN TYPES (PUGGALA-PANNATTI) -Bimala Charan Law, M.A., B.L.-Pali Text Society (p. 23-24):

1. What sort of person is he who undergoes re-birth (not more than) seven times ? – he running on and transmigrating seven times amongst devas and men makes an end of suffering.
2. What sort of person is he who transmigrates from family to (good) family ? – he running on and transmigrating through two or three (good) families makes an end of suffering.
3. What sort of person is ‘ single-seeded ’ ? – he having returned to the state of human existence makes an end of suffering.
4. What sort of person is a ‘ once-returner ’ ? – having weakened passions, hatred and delusion, becomes a once-returner; coming back once only to this world, he makes an end of suffering.

In verses 47-48 the ways in which stream-attainers and once-returners work are given as : the first, by ‘putting away the three fetters’,the second by ‘ the destruction of attachment to sensual pleasures and malevolence’ (obviously in addition to the three fetters).

How can a lower phala with more defilements to eliminate lead quicker to Nibbana than a higher phala with fewer ones? The fruit as such (Nibbana) is of course one and the same, but here we have a case where ekabiji and kolankolo Sotapannas attain It in very much the shorter term than do Sakadagamis. In short, where is the incentive to strive for the Sakadagami stage at all when one can attain Nibbana at or from a lower phala? Unless it be that a Sakadagami has the ‘reward’ of a deva realm.

Nevertheless, it MUST be worthwhile to work for higher phala. Of this there can be no doubt. Hence my question.

Metta to all beings

[Lal]

y not: From that sutta: “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”.
It says a Sakadagami will come back just once to THIS LOKA (meaning kama loka. Anagami is never coming back to kama loka). However, a Sakadagami has much less kama raga/patigha compared to a Sotapanna, and thus is expected to be reborn only in a deva realm.
– A Sakadagami has removed vatthu kama (the desire to OWN things that give sense pleasures).
– An Anagami has removed both vatthu kama and kilesa kama (any desire for sense pleasures).
– A Sotapanna has both vatthu kama and kilesa kama.

All three categories of Sotapanna will be born in the human world (manussa loka) one or more times.

The rebirth for a Sakadagami is also explained in, “The Way to Nibbana – Removal of Asavas” (see #2). I am sure I talked about this other posts, but do not remember offhand what those are.

[Akvan]

Hi ynot,

No, there is no contradiction. A sotapanna’s understanding of aniccha, dukka, anaththa is at a lower level than a sakadagami’s, and hence a sakadagami should attain arahanth before a sotapanna.

In the puggala pannatti an eka biji is explained as a person who attains nibbana after one human bava. A sakadagami returns to this world (I think this refers to kama loka) once and attains nibbana there. A human “bava” is a longer time frame than a human “life time”. Hence a sakadagami would attain nibbana before a sotapanna.

The pali text for this section is as follows;

Katamo ca puggalo ekabījī? Idhekacco puggalo tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sotāpanno hoti avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyano. So ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti—ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “ekabījī”.

Katamo ca puggalo sakadāgāmī? Idhekacco puggalo tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti—ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “sakadāgāmī”.

My understanding is that these are only broad classifications and not definite (that’s why kolankola says 2 OR 3 bhava). And the time frames refer to the maximum time period one is likely to take to attain arahanth, at a given point in time.

A sotapanna could attain a higher magga pala in this life itself. So at one point in time a person could be a sotapanna (either sattakkathuparam, kolankola or eka biji) but he could attain a higher magga pala in that life itself, which then makes the earlier classification (of him being a sattakkathuparam or kolankola or eka biji) invalid.

[y not]

Thank you Akvan and the others,

The whole question has arisen because it is said that it is the Sotapanna who makes an end to suffering – which is not so at all. No Sotapanna has reached that state, can ‘make an end to suffering’ when at the level of a Sotapanna.

I see it now. It means that there are Sotapannas (who, through different gati, among other things) attain the Arahanthood in one human bhava (or even in one life), in 2 or 3 human bhava, or at most within 7 bhava. But by the stage when they ‘make an end to suffereing’ they are no longer only Sotapannas, but Arahants. Only in the last case (satthakkhattha) can one die as a Sotapanna, a Sakadagami or an Anagami and attain a deva or brahma existence.

And yet, Akvan:

“..and hence a sakadagami should attain arahanth before a sotapanna.” and
“A human “bava” is a longer time frame than a human “life time”. Hence a sakadagami would attain nibbana before a sotapanna.”

I cannot see how that can be so in the case of ekabji and even kolankolo Sotapannas. A human bhava is a few thousand years, at most several thousand years, while for a Sakadagami in even the lowest deva realm, it is just over 9 million years. In your post of October 18, 2018 at 8:33 pm: .The explanation is based on the time frame that each person attains nibbana, rather than the reason a person is a specific type.’ So it will be as you say only for satthakkhattha through to ekabiji Sotapoannas ,in ascending order.

A Sakadagami enjoys a deva existence, true, but the pleasure is useless in the long run, and only lenghtens his stay in sansara. An ekabiji Sotapanna does it all in the shortest term, foregoing the pleasures to be had in a deva realm. Both ekabiji and kolankolo Sotapannas attain Release from one to three ‘short’ human bhavas, unlike Sakadagamis and Anagamis who spend millions or billions of years in maybe several successive deva and/or brahma bhavas unless they work for immediate Release on the way at any stage.

I have found all this to be very instructive and braodening.

Thank you all

Comments please

Metta to all

[Lal]

I think the confusion here may be removed by the following facts:

1. A given “person” attains magga phala in the following sequence: Sotapanna Anugami, Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
2. Among DIFFERENT PEOPLE, it is not possible to say even an Anagami WILL attain Arahanthood before a Sakadagami or a Sotapanna, or that a Sakadagami WILL attain a higher magga phala before a Sotapanna.
3. It is possible that even a normal human may attain the Arahantood before any other who may have attained a magga phala at or below the Anagami stage before him/her.
   – For example, there are Anagamis (in those brahma realms that are reserved for Anagamis) who had attained the Anagami stage during Buddha Sasana of PREVIOUS Buddhas. During the lifetime of the Gotama Buddha, millions of people attained the Arahant stage.
4. Those time restrictions provide the MAXIMUM time it will take a person at a GIVEN intermediate stage of Nibbana to attain the Arahanthood. It does not mean a given person will take that much time. There have been some who went through all stages and attained the Arahanthood during a single discourse by the Buddha.

Does that resolve the issue, or are there other related issues that I did not see?

[y not]

Thank you Lal,

There are no issues, not for me at least. Even with what you say above, nothing I was not aware of there, except your reference to the historical detail that “During the lifetime of the Gotama Buddha, MILLIONS of people attained the Arahant stage.” (And ARAHANT Stage ! ) I thought the number, PARTICULARLY of Arahants, would be much less, seeing the absence of rapid means of transportation and telecomunication in those days, to say nothing of the printed word. (What about today, in our age, with all those plus-points to our advantage, I ask myself. Even though the first gem is absent, the second and third are there. What do you say, Lal? )

The point that I contended was Akvan’s ‘ Hence a sakadagami would attain nibbana before a sotapanna (ekabiji and kolankolo)’ So, no, no more related issues. Thank you.

with Infinite gratitude

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

In the Janavasadbha Sutta: https://suttacentral.net/dn18/en/sujato it is stated by King Bimbisara that after attaining sotapanna he has been born seven times in the deva realms and seven times in the human realms. The relevant section is given below.

“This is the seventh time I have been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am now able to become a king of non-humans.
Seven from here, seven from there—
fourteen transmigrations in all.
That’s how many past lives
I can recollect.
For a long time I’ve known that I won’t be reborn in the underworld, but that I still hope to become a once-returner.’”

If King Bimbisara was a sotapanna how come he was born 14 times in deva and human realms? Isn’t this contradictory to the maximum seven bava that a sotapanna is supposed to have?

[Lal]

Hi Akvan,

There is a difference between bhava and jati: “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“.

“King Bimbisara was born 14 times in deva and human realms”. Those are 14 jati, and not bhava.

[y not]

Akvan:

He does not say that he transmigrated in those 14 as a Sotapanna. He was NOT a Sotapanna back then.

In fact, is is only ‘now’ (i,e. in that life as King Bimbisara when he attained stream-entry under Buddha Gotama) that he became able to become a king of non-humans.’ (before he only ‘resided’ there) and likewise ‘but that I (he) still hope(s) to become a once-returner.’, not before in any of those previous lives . So I see no contradiction here.

That is my understanding.

Metta

[y not]

Lal:

It appears we were typing at the same time!

“Those are 14 jati, and not bhava.”

This had occurred to me. Still, as I see, the text allows for those 14 ‘lives’ to be bhavas not only jatis. For one thing ( or better for HALF a thing, in this case) bhava and jati mean the same in deva realms. (It is only ‘the small matter’ of the difference in duration between 7 and 49, at most, human jati!)

Please correct me if that is not so

Metta

[Lal]

y not: Where does it say, ” text allows for those 14 ‘lives’ to be bhavas not only jatis.”?

From the Jana­vasabha Sutta (DN 18):
“Idaṃ sattamaṃ kho ahaṃ, bhante, vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sahabyataṃ upapajjāmi, so tato cuto manussarājā bhavituṃ pahomi
Ito satta tato satta,
saṃsārāni catuddasa;
Nivāsa¬mabhi¬jānāmi,
yattha me vusitaṃ pure.
Dīgharattaṃ kho ahaṃ, bhante, avinipāto avinipātaṃ sañjānāmi, āsā ca pana me santiṭṭhati sakadāgāmitāyā’”ti.

Translated: “This is now the seventh time, Bhante, that I am reborn into the communion of the great King Vessavaṇa. Deceased as a human king, I am in heaven, a non-human king.
Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths—So much I know of lives I’ve lived in the past. Long, Bhante, have I, who am destined not to be reborn in states of woe (apayas), been conscious of that destiny, and now there is desire in me to become a Sakadagami.”

[upekkha100]

y not said:
“He does not say that he transmigrated in those 14 as a Sotapanna. He was NOT a Sotapanna back then.”

Even though I do not know if this was clarified in the sutta, I think this is the case as well.

King Bimbisara became a Sotapanna about 2600 years ago. The lifespan of even the lowest deva loka is supposed to be 9 million years. If he exhausted 7 deva existences in addition to 7 more human jathi after becoming a Sotapanna, all this would not be possible in the 2600 years that have since passed.

And even if the exact calculation of the lowest deva loka lifespan is not confirmed, then it should be at least thousands of years, and even then the above would not be possible.

[Lal]

Hopefully, the following will clarify the situation:

1. King Bimbisara attained the Sotapanna stage BEFORE dying.
2. The lifespans of the realms given, for example, at “31 Realms of Existence“, are the MAXIMUM possible.

– It is possible for a being in any of those realms to “die” before that time.
– If a deva with a Sakadagami stage attains the Anagami stage, then he would be reborn instantly in a brahma realm reserved for Anagamis.
– If a deva generates hateful thought towards another deva, he could be instantly reborn in a lower realm.
– Furthermore, a being in one of those realms could die at any moment due a kamma vipaka, just like humans die in early life.

3. Apparently, “King Bimbisara” died several times in that deva realm and was reborn in the same realm, just a like a human can die and reborn many times in the human realm. The only difference is that there is no gandhabba state in deva realms.

[y not]

Lal’

In all 14 ‘rebirths’: saṃsārāni catuddasa; does not specify whether those were Bhava or Jati, hence my ‘the text allows…” I could go no further.

Thank you for the relevant basics immediately above.

Thank you Akvan, Sybe, Saket and Upekkha

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

Waharaka Thero mentions that the 7 lives that a saththakathuparama has left doesn’t really refer to bava. This deshana is specifically answering a question about this specific topic in the Janavasabha Sutta.
https://www.waharaka.com/listen/CD076-32

[Lal]

Hello Akvan,

“Waharaka Thero mentions that the 7 lives that a saththakathuparama has left doesn’t really refer to bava.”

Yes. That is correct.
I am not sure what issue is that we are trying to resolve. Can you ask the question again?

What I have stated is that once one attains the Sotapanna stage, there will be no “eighth bhava”. He/she will attain the Arahant stage within 7 bhava.

But that COULD take more than seven jati or births within those seven bhava. There is no stated limit to number of jati within a given bhava.

Of course, a Sotapanna COULD attain Arahanthood within the same bhava too. Sometimes, one can go through all four stage of Nibbana and attain the Arahanthood while listening to a single desana.

[y not]

–“I am not sure what issue is that we are trying to resolve”–

On October 28, 2018 at 11:56 pm, it was this: (AKVAN)

“King Bimbisara that AFTER attaining sotapanna he has been born seven times in the deva realms and seven times in the human realms.”, followed by:
“If King Bimbisara was a Sotapanna how come he was born 14 times in deva and human realms? Isn’t this contradictory to the maximum seven bava that a sotapanna is supposed to have?”.

The fundamental error here was “IF the King was a Sotapanna…being reborn fourteen times”, when in fact he was NOT a Sotapanna. That has been resolved. What may appear to be still outstanding is the matter of whether those 14 rebirths had been 14 bhavas or eight , the human bhave being taken as 7 jatis to arrive at the total of 14 ‘rebirths.

I personally do not think that matters much. What would have been of far more serious consequence, because of inconsistency with the fact that a Sotapanna has at most 7 more bhava, is if it were found that the sutta said that a Sotapanna has more than seven bhava left, (whether 7 deva and one human bhava, adding up to 8 or 7 deva and seven human ,adding up to fourteen, is irrelevant to the point in question: in both cases, it is more than 7 bhava)

The main point was that those 14 rebirths were not referring to a Sotapanna at all’, but that was clear on reading the sutta. I do not know whether others see other significant points that need elucidation. I do not see any not covered by Lal by the points in his post of Oct 28.

Metta to all

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

Sorry, let me restate the question again.

In the sutta, Bimbisara is said to have been born 7 times in the deva realm and 7 times in the human realm. According to the Sinhala and English translations these 14 births are transmigrations from one realm to the other. For e.g. Human to deva to human to deva….

If indeed the 14 births occurred in this way, wouldn’t this mean that there were 14 bava? As a human bava will make a person be born only in the human realm and if he is to be born in the deva realm after his human birth, he has to lose the human bava and gain a deva bava.

If such transmigrations did occur, then Bimbisara would have had 14 bava after becoming a sotapanna, which is contradictory to the stance that a sotapanna will have only 7 bava remaining and will attain nibbana before an 8th bava.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan:

As I said earlier: “But that COULD take more than seven jati or births within those seven bhava. There is no stated limit to number of jati within a given bhava.”

There are only two bhava involved here, 7 births in each bhava. That is what is meant by: “..Seven from here, seven from there”.

He was born a human 7 times before being born in the deva realm. It appears that he died very early in each of those. Even if one lives for a day that a birth.

Then he was had a cuti-patisandhi transition to the deva bhava. Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.
– So, there had been only one bhava change (i.e., cuit-patisandhi).

[Akvan]

Hi Lal,

The corresponding pali text is (https://suttacentral.net/dn18/pli/ms)

“Ito satta tato satta,
saṃsārāni catuddasa”

I think catudassa means 14. What does this samsarani refer to? It is this that has been translated to transmigrations (bava changes / chuti patisandi).

[Lal]

Ito satta tato satta (seven there and seven here),
saṃsārāni (in rebirth process) catuddasa (fourteen)

OR, Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths.

Also, I think “rebirth” is a better word than “transmigration”. The latter is used more with reincarnation, a Hindu concept:
What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream

[Akvan]

Thanks Lal

[upekkha100]

Lal said:
“Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.

1) So that means just as a single human bhava has multiple human jathi within that bhava, same is the case for a deva bhava? Example: one single deva bhava can have 10 deva jathi within it?

2) Is the same true for a single brahma bhava, peta bhava, asura bhava, niraya bhava? Or does 1 brahma bhava equal to only 1 brahma jathi?

[y not]

Upekkha,

As I see, your question arises because all through relevant posts, jati and bhava are shown to be synonymous in realms other than the human and animal. So how does Lal say that the king had 7 different jati in a single deva bhava? (“There are only two bhava involved here, 7 births in each bhava”). Might as well say he had 7 deva bhava, doing away with all possible misunderstanding.?

(Note”..so when a deva DIES…)..so he DOES die, so that would constitute a deva bhava. Full stop, it would appear. Therefore the next birth will be another bhava. But because the birth, and the six subsequent ones, takes place in the same realm, although’in another location’, they are said to be jati (within the same bhava).

I can see that deva as well as brahma realms will have many, many ‘locations’ fitting exactly the kamma of the beings that caused them to be ‘born’ specifically there (just like we can see happening in the human realm, for that matter).

The only explanation I can see that would reconcile how the king was ‘born’ seven times within the same deva bhava is through strong abhisankara causing his sudden appearance in another ‘location’ within that realm, i.e. that his six ‘deaths’ there were due to anantariya kamma vipaka, NOT through old age and death because the time for that deva bhava had run out.

Lal please clarify

[Lal]

From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):

“There are these four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?

“The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge) is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about.
“The jhana-range of a person in jhana (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
The precise workings of the results of kamma.
Origins of the world.
These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.”

However, it is good to get SOME IDEA about the wider world of 31 realms. There is no single sutta or a chapter on Abhidhamma that is focused on that.
– What I, and others, have done is to collect bits and pieces of information in many places in the Tipitaka and try to form a crude picture.
– We will never be able to go into fine details. Even if the Buddha wanted to, he would not have been able to provide such a vast amount of information, especially without a printing press that we have today.

Furthermore, he specifically said that he does not want people to get distracted from the main goal: to end future suffering in the rebirth process.

Now, going back to the question of a deva: It appears that a deva could die and be born in the same realm many times, just like humans can be born many times within a given human bhava. The only difference is that a deva will be instantly reborn in another location (in the same realm).

[y not]

Thank you Lal,

Granted “..the main goal: to end future suffering in the rebirth process.”
That is always at the back of my mind.

However, the question revolved around whether a deva bhava is or may comprise more than one jati. It is not one of the four ‘imponderables’, at least not directly. By the same token many questions asked on the forum, and some posts as well, would fall under ‘questions not leading to release from suffering’.

To myself, and it appears also to some others, the notion of more than one jati within a deva bhava is a new one (even if not an important one) hence the lenght to which this topic has gone.

Personally I am happy to just put the question aside and concentrate on what has to be done to end future suffering. After all, the question is of no consequence whatsoever in that regard. Lal say ‘it appears’, and in two instances; so if no definitive answer to the question has yet been found it is no problem with me at all. Perhaps this could have been made clear earlier on, though, thereby saving everybody (ESPECIALLY you Lal) valuable time.

ever so grateful

[Author]

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