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Vilaskadival said: “I feel that apart from Kamma and Kamma vipaka, the body pain or pleasure (dukkha vedana and sukha vedana) are conditioned by niyama as under…..”.
I know this a well-established concept. However, the problem lies at the incorrect explanations of the five niyama. I have briefly discussed this under #2 in the post,”What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.
Basically, all other four niyama (or principles or unchanging universal laws) help enforce the kamma niyama.
Kamma (what is done with the mind), while not deterministic (otherwise Nibbana will be impossible to attain), is a pre-requisite for anything to happen. For example, dhamma niyama is basically, Tilakkhana, Paticca Samuppada, etc. Citta niyama deals with fundamentals of how citta vithi operate (17 cittas in a pancadvara vithi, sobhana and asobhana cetasika, etc). Bija niyama is how kamma bija bring results under suitable conditions (which involves dhamma niyama with Pattana Dhamma). Utu niayama deals with the viparinama nature of a sankata. These are all inter-related.
I am looking for relevant suttas, but found only this one on dhamma niyama: “Uppādā Sutta (AN 3.136)” so far. It starts with “Uppādā vā, bhikkhave, tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā..”.
Translated: “Bhikkhus, whether there is a Tathagata (Buddha) is present in this world or not, all sankhara always have anicca nature (that is a dhamma niyama)…”.It is always: “Mano pubbangma dhamma…”. Nothing happens without mind being a precursor. Kamma or sankhara are what we do with our minds. Also see the recent post: “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka?“.
Johnny_Lim said: “I associate our kamma and vipaka to the 2 sides of a coin. The coin, being our 5 khandhas. As long as we exist, we are the coin that has these 2 sides.”
Yes. That is concise statement of the issue.
I agree with the rest of Johnny’s comment too. The only thing is that one first needs to realize that it is unfruitful take the five khandhas as “mine”; that is the Sotapanna stage and cannot be done without some grasping of Tilakkhana.
Even a Sotapanna only knows that it is unfruitful (that is the first stage or the right vision (“dassanena pahatabba“). Actually experiencing that is done in arriving at higher stages. Only an Anagami has seen (experienced) the “cooling down” by getting rid of the cravings for sense pleasures.
It is not easy to get rid of the sanna of a “me”, and that is reduced by stages and it completely removed only at the Arahant stage. Even an Anagami has cravings to learn and enjoy Dhamma (and may be also for jhanic pleasures).
It is easy to say “there is no me” or “there is no-self”, and there are a lot of people who meditate by just reciting something like that. That is just a waste of time.
There is always going to be “self” (not a permanent “self” but a “dynamic self” who keeps changing gathi; see, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“) as long as one one values even a single thing in this world. This is a statement to contemplate on. That should indicate how hard it is to get to the Arahant stage.
Siebe said: “The moralist in us prefers to see kamma as the root cause of everything wished for of not wished for. The wise in us prefers to talk about bad and right views.”
Those two are inter-connected. A moralist is one with right views. Bad kamma are done with wrong views, and good kamma are done with right views.
But the key point in Buddha Dhamma is that “Samma Ditthi” does not merely mean “mundane right views”.
It is deeper, and includes a comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta.
P.S. I just realized that you may not have seen “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the discussion referred to there.
Here is another way to look at this issue.
Siebe said: “There is no car apart from it wheels, chassis etc.”
This simile of Ven. Nagasena can only provide a crude analogy. A human is more than just physical body parts.
One key idea missing in the above analogy is that while a car has no gathi, a human does. These five khandhas are deeply related to each other. For example, our physical body in this life is pretty much compatible with our four other khandhas, unlike the parts of a car.
If we cultivate deva sankhara by engaging in meritorious deeds, speaking accordingly, and thinking accordingly, our four mental aggregates will slowly change in that direction. If, at the end of this human bhava, we have turned our gathi to that of a deva, then the next birth is likely to be a deva. Then our body will be drastically changed to that of a deva.
If one cultivates sankhara appropriate for a dog, then the next bhava is likely to lead to be a “dog bhava” with a body of a dog, and thoughts of a dog, etc.
“Deva gathi” will yield a deva and a “dog gathi” will yield a dog. No matter what gathi we cultivate, the existence that we get is only temporary. We do not know what will happen in future existences (bhava). We need to try to at least get to the Sotapanna stage in this life, to get out of this recurring process.
We are not just our body parts, but our gathi play a key role. While our gathi are is constant flux, they are always there in some form to keep us bound in this rebirth process.
The only way to get rid of the five khandhas is to remove ALL gathi or defilements (dasa akusala, dasa samyojana). This needs to be done in steps though.
First, we need to understand the importance of the worst of the dasa akusala: killing, stealing, too much attachment to sensual pleasures (which includes sexual misconduct), then those done by speech.
Then we need to take steps clean up our vaci sankhara (conscious thoughts) to be compatible with the above.
However, the “apayagami gathi” cannot ever be PERMANENTLY removed until one starts comprehending “anicca, dukkha, anatta“. That is the next step.
To be at least be feed from the apayas, we need to get rid of “apayagami gathi”. That cannot be done without comprehending Tilakkhana.
That is the special message of the Buddha. That has to be learned from the Tipitaka. No one can do that on one’s own, no matter how intelligent one is. So, when Siebe says: “This cannot be learned from books”, that is not correct.
This is because while we can live with a peace of mind by living a moral life, or become a deva or a brahma or a human in the next life by cultivating appropriate sankhara, we have no control of what may happen in the future lives.
If we get born into a “bad environment” and start cultivating sankhara of an animal or even a “hell being” by joining a gang of killers, then the next birth could in an apaya. In fact, any living being existing right now has been through all those realms in the past. This is the hardest point to understand for most people.
Inflib said: “I read in one of your posts that the gandhabba has control of body movements, like a driver of a car.”
This may be hard for you to imagine, but gandhabba is you. You control your physical body, just like a drive controls her car.
This is why when the gandhabba (mental body) comes out of the physical body during some heart operations, the physical body is sometimes declared “dead” by the surgeons, but a little later gandhabba re-enters the body and the body becomes live. You may want to read a book by a heart surgeon on his case studies: ““Consciousness Beyond Life”, by Pim van Lommel (2010)”.
Also, the post: “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)“.2. You said, “strange body twitchings..”. These could also be due to neurological problems. The brain does play a role in controlling the body, on the commands of the gandhabba: “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body”.
But sometimes, the brain may have “slight defects” causing such inadvertent twitchings. You may want to see a neurologist to see whether it is that.
3. You said, “I also have these interesting eye lights that move around the perimeter of my vision. They correspond to the Dharma wheel by flashing and circling (I.e., circling right, 5 o’clock to 3 o’clock = wrong action, wrong speech), typically white light.”
The mind can create all sorts of illusions. People who do breath meditation see these things all the time. My suggestion is to ignore them.
3. You said, “One other thing that is probably worth mentioning, I feel like a million watt lightbulb. Off the surface of the body is radiating energy. I’ve felt it turn on like a light switch a couple times when I woke up out of deep sleep, otherwise it’s on all the time. It moves outward from the heart center. Is it possible that this is the gandhabba extending outward?”
It is possible that it is due to gandhabba. A series of books have been written by Robert Monroe. In his first book, “Journeys Out of the Body: The Classic Work on Out-of-Body Experience (1992)” he described his first OBE experience when he realized that his hand went through the floor. Obviously, it was not his physical hand, but the hand of the gandhabba. Later, his whole mental body came out of the body, and there are many accounts of his “out-of-body” travels. However, unlike those with abhinna powers, he could not control where he went, but of course he could always come back to his body when he wanted to.
In his book, “Travels”, famous author of the Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton (1988, p. 307) mentions his ability to “shift my awareness out of my body and move it around the bedroom”, and he says, “..I didn’t think anything about it… I assumed that anybody could do it..”.
So, don’t be frightened if you do come out of your physical body. Apparently there some who do it on a regular basis:
Canadian student has “out of body experiences” whenever she wantsInflib said: ” I’m able to communicate with my gandhabba and she’s trying to stop me from continuing on the Path. For example, Arhanthood will create the fertile ground for a major catastrophe..”
Actually, it is not your gandhabba doing that. Your gandhabba is inside your body, and is essentially your “being”. The physical body is just a temporary residence for the gandhabba, the mental body. There are many posts on this but here are a couple: “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction” and “Our Mental Body – Gandhabba“.
I would encourage you to use the “Search” button at top right to find more posts, and also to read the links given in the above posts.
There are many unseen beings in our world. There is evidence that there are such “good beings” and “bad beings”. See:
“What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?”Both these types can try to stop one from following Buddha Dhamma, as discussed in the above post. If you can give some details of your experience (if you are comfortable in doing that), I and others may be able to provide some input.
It is possible that more readers have had similar experiences. Before starting the discussion forum, I got several emails describing their experiences.
I just published the post, “Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipaka?”, as promised.
Unless one takes time to go through that background material, this post may not be fully understood. Learning Dhamma (at this deeper level) REQURIES an effort.
Buddha Dhamma is not like anything that we have been exposed to, and some concepts may not be obvious to everyone. As I keep saying, do not expect to learn pure Dhamma just by reading posts. Practice (from a base level) is an essential part. Understanding how dasa akusala (and the ten types of micca ditthi) can defile a mind and cover it, is critical.
Also, please don’t take these comments as an indication of frustration on my part. I fully understand different people have different levels of understanding (that is why there are posts at the website ranging from basic to deep levels).
I will do whatever it takes to help out a motivated person (and I do know all those who have commented so far have the desire to learn).
Please do not just state what you believe or not. That is irrelevant. My goal is not to convince anyone of anything. My goal is to explain Buddha Dhamma per Tipitaka, and its original commentaries.
It is up to each person to decide whether these interpretations make sense.
Rehashing same ideas again and again, as I see in other discussion forums, does not serve any good for anyone. I will only respond if points in the post as directly quoted and shown to be incorrect.Of course, there could be other explanations (more correctly other ways of looking at the issue) in some cases (as we have seen in discussions so far), and those would be valid comments. What is unproductive is to say what one just believes, without proof from the Tipitaka.
Finally, something that I have learned by experience: expecting to grasp deep concepts without a good grasp of fundamentals is like taking a college level course without going to primary school. I wasted a lot of time before encountering desanas of Waharaka Thero, because I did not know some fundamentals (not only anicca, dukkha, anatta, but a few more basic things like bhava, jati, and gandhabba). I say this with a lot of compassion, not with agitation or disrespect. So, please don’t hold back from making legitimate comments.
Akvan said: “So I don’t think that the phrase; ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ (yadanattā taṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti) specifically refers to sakkayaditti. However, the basic / fundamental understanding of this will lead to the eradication of sakkayaditti. I guess at the ultimate level, the understanding of this leads to the eradication of Maana (asameemana).”
I agree. The vision or understanding starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, but it is truly comprehended only at the Arahant stage.
Also see: “Sakkaya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.Siebe said: “I know it is not described that way in the sutta’s, but i belief the view “i am a human’ is a sakkaya ditthi”.
I did not say, “i am a human’ is a sakkaya ditthi”. Please read the above carefully.
What I said was: “This is really about sakkaya ditthi: whether there is anything in this world to be worthwhile to be called “mine” and to do immoral things to maintain those “things”.”
This is a fine point to grasp.OK. I did not catch the “sati” part of Siebe‘s question.
Yes. If sati (mindfulness) is there, then asobhana cetasika like jealousy and hate cannot arise. Only sobhana cetasika can arise together with other sobhana cetasika. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika do not mix in a given citta.
Siebe is probably talking about my analogy of a picture drawn with dark colors to show how a pure citta is contaminated by asobhana cetasika in a post at: “Living Dhamma – Fundamentals“.
It is just an analogy. The Buddha used many such analogies to clarify things. Don’t take it literally.
Issa (jealousy) or dosa (hate) cetasika will of course darken (defile) a mind.
Siebe said: “Do you belief the Buddha did possess some kind of knowledge (wisdom)…”
Of course I do. The whole idea is that a Buddha is a human who has perfected mind capabilities to the ultimate level, and is able to comprehend everything about the world. The problem most people have is they think the Buddha is yet another guru or a top level philosopher. One of course starts there, since one does not want have blind faith.
You may know the name of the sutta, where someone asked the Buddha “Are you a human, a deva, or a brahma?”. The Buddha said he was none of those. That he had transcended all in the 31 realms.
I think there is enough material at the website, especially with the “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” subsection, to see that the Buddha is someone who truly transcended this world.
The material I have presented so far is just scratching the surface. I myself have to spend the rest of my life to write what I know right now (and I do get frustrated about that). What I know came mainly from my later teacher Waharaka Thero’s desanas, but I am learning more from the Tipitaka now. The Buddha said that what he has taught can be compared to a handful of leaves in a forest. So, one will never be able to comprehend even a fraction of what he knew.
Also see: “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“.Siebe said: “In the sutta’s the Buddha advises the khandha’s, ofcourse also the vinnanakhandha, to see, with correct wisdom, like this: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.’
What does this mean? How to understand this?”That is a good question, and most of the website is focused on explaining this subtle point. This is really about sakkaya ditthi: whether there is anything in this world to be worthwhile to be called “mine” and to do immoral things to maintain those “things”.
The Buddha rejected both “no-self” and an “everlasting self”. We cannot say “I don’t exist” or “you don’t really exist”. We both know that we do exist. But, this existence is transient. There is nothing to brag about even if one is a king, deva, or a brahma.
In this existence, we are humans. But in the next, we could an animal, a deva, or brahma. And that depends on what we have done in the past, and more importantly, what we are doing in this life (because we can get out of this suffering-filled existence by learning and practicing Dhamma).
In fact, at a deeper level, all five aggregates arise due to six causes (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha). But we only need to get rid of lobha, dosa, moha to break this samasaric journey. And that is done by staying away from dasa akusala, and learning and comprehending Tilakkhana. Panna (wisdom) will grow and all six roots will be taken out.
Now, this idea can be understood (and expressed) by different people in different ways. So, I would encourage others to give their opinions.
Yes, Siebe, it is a mess. It will take a while for most people to clear the cobwebs and see what the Buddha really meant by some of these verses in suttas.
Comprehending “Stream of consciousness” is what is meant by “viññāṇasotaṃ pajānāti“. As discussed in the recent posts at the website, viññāṇa is a key concept to understand:
“Viññāna Aggregate”Here is the sutta: Sampasādanīya Sutta (DN 28): In the sutta, after citing various Noble characteristics of the Buddha and Arahants, Ven. Sariputta basically reviews various aspects of the Dhamma, and the particular section that Siebe refers to is the “1.5. Dassanasamāpatti
desanā” or attaining the first stage of Samma Ditthi (dassana or vision). Therefore, Walshe is wrong is saying that this refers to Arahants.Here is the Pali version of the section quoted by Siebe and given above by SengKiat: “Puna caparaṃ, bhante, idhekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya … pe … tathārūpaṃ cetosamādhiṃ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṃ uddhaṃ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṃ pūraṃ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati: ‘atthi imasmiṃ kāye kesā lomā … pe … lasikā muttan’ti. Atikkamma ca purisassa chavi¬maṃ¬salo¬hi¬taṃ aṭṭhiṃ paccavekkhati. Purisassa ca viññāṇasotaṃ pajānāti, ubhayato abbocchinnaṃ idha loke appa¬tiṭṭhi¬tañca paraloke appa¬tiṭṭhi¬tañca. Ayaṃ catutthā ¬dassa¬na¬samā¬patti. Eta¬dā-nuttari¬yaṃ, bhante, ¬dassa¬na¬samā¬pattīsu“.
Basically, this section talks about how a person can see that 32 parts of the body are just composed of satara maha bhuta, and thus have no life in them by themselves, and are subjected to decay and death. One can comprehend this easily with the role of the gandhabba. It is the gandhabba that gives “life” to body parts; when it leaves, the body is lifeless.
In the third verse, it says, the third vision is attained when one realizes that the vinnana is what keeps the life either in this world or in the netherworld (paralowa as gandhabba). It does not mention gandhabba, but that is the idea.
In the fourth verse, the fourth vision is to realize that when vinnana ceases to exist, there is no footing either in this world or in paralowa.
Anyway, it is not possible to translate a verse without realizing the scope of the sutta. Above is just the key idea. This clearly shows that one cannot translate a sutta word-by-word.
By the way, section 1.3 of the sutta is “1.3 Gabbhavakkanti Desana” or about gandhabba descending to a womb. Gabba is a womb and vakkanti (or okkanti) is entering.
Vince said: “Yes I posted something, then edited it and tried to post it again. I figured it might show up eventually, but oh well.”
Once submitted, a given comment can be revised only within an hour. That could be the reason why the comment got deleted, but I am not sure. In principle, the system should not allow a revision after an hour.
Vince wrote: “Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that any Ariya will still have minor wrong views about what is and isn’t good to do until they reach the Arahant level, because until that point Samma Ditthi is still incomplete?”
Yes. As Tobias G also elaborated, Samma Ditthi (or panna) is completed at the Arahant stage. There is no amoha cetasika. As Samma Ditthi grows, the moha asobhana cetasika weakens and the panna sobhana cetasika grows.
