Udayavaya (Udayabbaya) Ñāna – Introduction

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    • #21798
      firewns
      Participant

      In the post “Udayavaya (Udayabbaya) Ñāna – Introduction“, it is written under #14:

      To summarize, the each of the five aggregates arise with the aid of five factors:
      Rupa: avijjā, tanhā, kamma, āhāra, nibbatti lakkhana.
      Vedana: avijjā, tanhā, kamma, phassa, nibbatti lakkhana.
      Sanna: avijjā, tanhā, kamma, phassa, nibbatti lakkhana.
      Sankhara: avijjā, tanhā, kamma, phassa, nibbatti lakkhana.
      Vinnana: avijjā, tanhā, kamma, nāma rūpa, nibbatti lakkhana.

      If that is so, can we say that tanha paccaya vedana? Or tanha paccaya sankhara? Or phassa paccaya sankhara? Yet this may violate the rule about the aññamañña paccayā being inoperative at the salayatana paccaya phassa step. Could the word ‘paccaya’ even be rightfully used here to refer to such instances? Or could the above instances take place not in 1 but in at least 2 PS cycles, one spinning off from another at the jati stage?

      A special case might be tanha paccaya vinnana. Since the vinnana could be a kamma beeja that is grasped at the bhava stage, so it may actually not violate the rule about the aññamañña paccayā being inoperative at the salayatana paccaya phassa step.

      Could tanha paccaya rupa refer to tanha indirectly leading to rupa being formed at the bhava or jati stage?

      Thank you very much in advance for your responses.

    • #21802
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You may want to read the post: “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna

    • #22278
      firewns
      Participant

      Lal,

      I understand that tanha may not necessarily lead to upadana if the being is aware of what is going on and decides not to engage in vaci sankhara about the object of one’s tanha. However, suppose that the being is either unaware of, or chooses not to obstruct tanha, so that it smoothly leads to upadana without much hindrance.

      In such a case, do my questions above still hold true? I.e. Tanha paccaya vinnana and tanha paccaya rupa (assuming upadana is there in both cases)?

      I have also read somewhere that vinnana can occur three times in one PS cycle: as vinnana, or as one of the sub-factors of phassa (e.g. when cakkhu vinnana arises due to phassa between vanna rupa and cakkhu indriya), or as upadana (I am not very sure how to explain this connection though). Unfortunately I cannot locate the commentary anymore, so maybe we can ignore it if it arouses more questions than answers.

    • #22281
      Lal
      Keymaster

      firewns wrote: “However, suppose that the being is either unaware of, or chooses not to obstruct tanha, so that it smoothly leads to upadana without much hindrance”.

      Yes. That is why it is not possible to stop the rebirth process if one is not exposed to correct Buddha Dhamma.

      On other questions:
      “Tanha paccaya vinnana” does take place.

      “tanha paccaya rupa” happens only indirectly. For example, one’s next birth (and the accompanying body) arises due to a built-up vinnana. This is a deeper aspect.

      I suggest reading the following to understand what is really meant by vinnana. This is something most people do not understand. Vinnana is all about “future expectations”:
      I recommend reading the posts 3 through 6 in the following section:
      Essential Buddhism

      and then read:
      Viññāna – What It Really Means

      It is worthwhile to spend the time and understand vinnana.

    • #22292
      firewns
      Participant

      I see, Lal. Thank you for your help and explanation.

      I see vinnana as occurring at least three times within a single PS cycle.

      The first time is of course as vinnana, or more exactly kamma vinnana, which is a mano vinnana.

      The second time it appears as a sub-factor of phassa, for example cakkhu vinnana arises when there is phassa between vanna rupa (rupa rupa) and the cakkhu indriya. This vinnana is a vipaka vinnana, and may be cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, ghana vinnana, jivha vinnana, kaya vinnana or mano vinnana.

      If beings get attached to the vipaka vinnana via tanha, another kamma vinnana may result as upadana sets in. This kamma vinnana is part of the vinnanakkhandha, which makes up part of the pancupadanakkhandha of the being. This kamma vinnana either is or may result in the formation of a kamma bija in the kamma bhava, which can then bring future vipaka vinnana when jati sets in.

      Is this correct? I would also like to point out that under this ‘Questions about Puredhamma Posts’ section, I have started another query about one type of micca ditthi–thinking that making offerings to devas and other beings have no benefits (Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)). You may have missed it since both queries fall under the same section.

      Thank you very much in advance for your kind responses.

    • #22293
      Lal
      Keymaster

      firewns wrote: “I see vinnana as occurring at least three times within a single PS cycle.”

      You are quite right. You have thought about this carefully! Paticca Samuppada can be analyzed in great detail.

      You may also want to read the post: “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna“.

      Also think about how different types of bhava (and jati) arise due to one’s own sankhara (which of course lead to corresponding vinnana). That understanding is very important.
      Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control

      P.S. In fact, this is one way to get rid of Sakkaya Ditthi and to attain the Sotapanna stage.
      – There is no “soul” or “attā” or have an “ātma”, but only a form of living being (satvā) arising due to (abhi)sankhara. When one truly comprehends that, one would have removed Sakkaya Ditthi.
      – Apunna abhisankhara lead to a satvā in the apayas.
      – Punna abhisankhara lead to a satvā in the “realms of human, deva, and rupavacara brahma”.
      – Anenja abhisankhara lead to a satvā in the “realms of arupavacara brahma”.
      – When one cultivates the Noble Path, one’s panna will grow and would be optimum at the Arahant stage. Then one one would not do any more abhisankhara. Of course, an Arahant would still do sankhara until the death of the physical body.

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