[Lal]

Thanks, SengKiat for the quotes.

However, that section of the sutta is not about an Arahant. It will be good if Siebe can point to the exact location of the verse within the sutta.

[Lal]

@Siebe Re: DN28§7

I cannot locate the location in the sutta where this phrase is at. Could you (1) either post the Pali version of the verse or (2) post the link to the English version so that I can find where it is in the Sutta?

[Lal]

This is a bit complex issue. I am still trying to figure out how to get all the relevant factors into a single post.

By the way, Johnny_Lim and Akvan have pointed out the important of the five niyamas. However, the traditional interpretation of the five niyamas is not correct.

I have discussed this a bit at: “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”

I hope to finish the post within a few days.

[Lal]

I am thinking about closing out this topic. It was a good discussion and contains a lot of useful information. If there are no more questions, I will close it in a week a so.

Of course, it will remain on the forum list, so that anyone can come back and read. Also, if at any time, another relevant point on this topic is needed to be discussed, I can re-open the discussion. Please send me the question directly to [email protected].

Thank you, Siebe, for staring this discussion. Thanks and much merits to all who participated.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “..do you believe it is possible that one can deliberately come back to ‘this world, the 31 realms of samsara, while one is totally freed from samsara, to help other beings?”

This is a totally absurd idea in Mahāyāna Buddhism: That past Buddhas can come back to this world.

Once liberated from this world of 31 realms there is no coming back. At Parinibbana, nama and rupa are totally separated (nama rupa paricceda), and that is not a reversible process.

From the discussion that we have had on this topic, it is very clear that it is the defiled vinnana that is responsible for keeping one in this world. A Buddha (or an Arahant) will NEVER re-generate a defiled vinnana in order to REMAIN in this world.

It is only because we have a defiled vinnana that we are so reluctant (and even afraid) to be liberated from this suffering-filled world. This is especially because we are not aware of the unimaginable suffering that awaits in the apayas. Even in this world, how many people commit suicide because they just cannot bear the suffering (mental or physical), including some famous people with all the money in the world?

One can get a vague idea of the suffering in the lower realms in the apayas, by looking at the animal suffering. How many fish die of unimaginable suffering once hauled in to boats when caught in nets. They could be there for hours, writhing in pain, before dying. When a wolf pack attacks a deer, for example, they don’t kill and eat; they eat the flesh while the animal is still alive. Poeple tend to enjoy National Geographic videos where a tiger chases a deer and eats it alive. Most people are not aware that they themselves could be subjected to similar situations in future births.

[Lal]

Good question, Siebe.

These verses have been totally and utterly incorrectly translated in many places: on the internet, in discussion boards, in books, etc. I have not seen a correct translation in print anywhere.

This question was asked by a bhikkhu, and the Buddha re-phrased his question as follows (Kevaṭṭa Sutta; DN 11):

“Kattha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati;
Kattha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Kattha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhatī’ti“.

Translated: “where would patavi, apo, jejo, vayo, not take hold? Where would anything made of them – whether spread out or condensed together, whether small or large, whether good (subha) or bad (asubha) – would not take hold? Where would nama and rupa be totally uprooted?”

Buddha’s answer was:
“Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ.
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati;
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.

Translated: “viññāna is unseen, infinite, and leads to the rebirth process for all”. (This is explained in: Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavanga).
The rest of the verse is:
“With the vinnana stopped from arising, patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, and anything spread out or condensed, small or large, good or bad, and also nama and rupa will be totally uprooted (do not get a chance to take hold)”.

In other words, when vinnana is stopped from arising (at the death of an Arahant), nama and rupa (pancakkhandha), which includes patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, and other rupa made of them, will not take hold anywhere in the 31 realms.

Vinnana is discussed in detail in: “Viññāna Aggregate“.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “are you refering to MN102§7 (from Bodhi’s translation):
“That any recluse or brahmin could say: “Apart from material form, apart from feeling, apart from perception,apart from formations, I shall describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and re-appearance, its growth,increase, and maturation” – that is impossible”.

Yes. Thank you for saving my time looking for a reference sutta. Here is the Pali verse from that sutta (Pañ­catta­ya Sutta, Majjhima Nikāya 102):

“aham aññatra rūpā, aññatra vedanāya, aññatra saññāya, aññatra saṅkhārehi, viññāṇassa āgatiṃ vā gatiṃ vā cutiṃ vā upapattiṃ vā vuddhiṃ vā virūḷhiṃ vā vepullaṃ vā paññapessāmī’ti—netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati..”.

There are several suttas with the same or similar phrase.

Siebe said: “..just to be sure…when an arhant dies does the mind survive death, even when there is no rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms? Is there in some way a continuing existence? Or does at the moment of parinibbana nothing continue?”

We can get an answer by looking at a fundamental concept in Abhidhamma:

There are three fundamental entities (paramatta dhamma) in our world of 31 realms: Citta, cetasika, rupa.

Then there is Nibbana, the fourth paramatta dhamma, and Nibbana does not belong to this world.

So, what happens at the Parinibbana (death) of an Arahant is that all three fundamental entities associated with the world of 31 realms cease to exist, and Nibbana is attained. Mind becomes free of rupa and is instantaneously released from the 31 realms.

We do not know what exists in Nibbana, because citta, cetasika, rupa,(and thus our types of feelings, perceptions, etc) do not exist in Nibbana.

But as the Buddha clearly stated, there a “tad ayatana” or a “perfect place” called Nibbana, and it is eternal, and “blissful” (Nibbanic bliss). Again, that Nibbanic bliss cannot be explained with our terminology. It is definitely outside the 31 realms. So, nothing continues IN THIS WORLD. That is all the Buddha has said about Nibbana (as far as I understand), and thus that is all I can say.

[Lal]

Siebe quotes me from a post at the website: ““The suffering stops permanently. The mind become PERMANENTLY pure and be detached permanently from any type of physical body, dense or fine”.

Yes. That is correct.

The key point is that for any living being in this world, ALL five aggregates MUST be there at given time (except for the asanna realm and when an Arahant is in Nirodha Samapatti).

The Buddha specifically said that there can be no “migration” of the vinnana to a new bhava unless accompanied by the rupakkhandha. I will find the sutta reference and place here when I find it.

Upon Parinibbana, the vinnanakkhandha is terminated; it cannot grasp a new bhava. Thus, there is no rebirth anywhere in the 31 realms.

This is what is embodied in the Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana: Kamma Viññāna and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana

This is a key point. Thank you, Siebe, for pointing it out.

For a living being in the Asanna realms, there are no nama khandhas (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana), and the life in the physical body maintained by kammic energy (just like in nirodha samapatti). When the kammic energy is terminated, a vinnana for a new bhava is grasped for that Asanna being.

[Lal]

In his reply to Johhny_Lim, Siebe said:” Do you really belief extinction is a noble goal?”

This is a common fear that many people have, including prominent “secular Buddhists” like Stephen Batchelor and Ven. Analayo. And that is why one should not even contemplate on attaining the Arahanthood. The danger is that when one has these “mundane ideas” about Nibbana and keep generating sankhara about their “pet theories” those are actually akusala thoguths, since they are generated with micca ditthi.

One should always start at the base level, and this is why I recommend those with doubts about laws of kamma, Nibbana, rebirth, etc to start at the first sections of the “Living Dhamma” section.

In case you don’t read those posts, the base level is where one sees the “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala (including micca ditthi). Then one’s mind gets “purified enough” to comprehend the anicca nature and begins to understand the possible unimaginable suffering in the apayas, and thus become a Sotapanna Anugami. As one makes an effort, one will get to the Sotapanna stage.

Even at the stage, one should not think about Nibbana being “extinction” and worry about that. The next step is to be released from the kama loka. That itself is a difficult one, since we are so enamored by the perceived sense pleasures. One really needs to see the suffering hidden in those sense pleasures AND also see the benefits of niramisa sukha that arises when one starts to slowly give up sense pleasures. Those who have developed even anariya jhanas should have a good idea why that niramisa sukha (or jhanic pleasures) are much better than sense pleasures.

It is only at the Anagami stage that one should seriously think about the Arahanthood, or “extinction”. Only when one gets to this stage that one can beginning to see the benefits of completely getting out of this world of 31 realms.

By the way Siebe, you seem not to read the links that I recommend. When someone has strong ditthis (views), one only SEES what one wants to see, and do not even want to sincerely try to read and understand what others suggest. There is nothing I can do about that.

I do not want anyone to take my word; I only would like one to read what I suggest and see whether it makes sense, for their sake. I will write these replies (when I have time) as long as I believe that they will at least help some people. I know there are a lot of people with this “fear of extinction”. They really should not focus on Nibbana, because it is a waste of time. It is wiser to follow the Path gradually, step-by-step.

It is like, when one starts a thousand-mile journey on foot, one should not think about the enormity of that task, and get discouraged. The task is accomplished by taking one step at a time.

Siebe also said: “I also cannot understand that Lal sees it as nobel goal to extinguish like a flame.”.

These are the words of the Buddha, not mine. Didn’t he say that “My Dhamma is not like any other that the world has seen (pubbe ananussutaesu dhammesu..?”.

One cannot take comfort in one’s theory by incorrectly translating Buddha’s words; that is just micca ditthi, and actually blocking one’s own Path.

But how can one figure out whether I am translating the suttas correctly? That can be done by looking for any inconsistencies within those several hundred posts at the website. I have illustrated this for other people’s wrong translations. I discuss this in the newest post: “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“.

If it is any consolation, the Buddha also stated that there is an actual “ayatana” called Nibbana. It is just that it cannot be expressed in terms of words we have in this world; see, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World“.
That “tad ayatana” or the “perfect place” is reached only by completely removing the dasa samyojana that bind us to this world of 31 realms: Three are removed at the Sotapanna stage, two removed at the Anagami stage, and the last five removed at the Arahant stage. That is why it is a step-by-step process.

[Lal]

Siebe said: “I also do not understand, when parinibbana is not the end of a being, why is the Buddha not clear about this in the sutta’s?”

I know that you have read a lot of suttas. So. it is surprising that you have not grasped the critical aspects of them. You seem to tend to read suttas and try to ignore the important parts of them OR may be the translations are very bad.

For example, in the Jata Sutta (SN 7.6), it says: “..Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati” which means that nama rupa are removed without trace for one upon Parinibbana. Nama rupa are the combination of the five aggregates. When they are removed cittas cease to exist.

In the Ratana Sutta (Snp 2.1): “Nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ
padīpo” which means “An Arahant goes out like a lamp goes out”.

I don’t remember the name of another sutta, where the Buddha asks Vaccagotta what happens to a fire when it is extinguished: “Does it go to the North or South? Can you say where it is gone?”. It just does not exist any more.

There are many suttas that discuss Nibbana along those lines.

It is a good idea to read relevant posts at the site before asking questions. Then one can point to a given bullet # and question if it is not not clear. Nibbana is discussed at various levels (simple to deep) at:
Nibbana

By the way, Johnny_Lim has done a good job above in trying to express the main idea. But Nibbana is a deep concept. The last post in the above link discusses how the Buddha said Nibbana exists, but not in this world.

[Lal]

The sutta says exactly what I said. There is no contradiction.

I think Siebe has a confusion about one’s intention (which according that person may be good) and how that intention (if based on micca ditthi or a wrong view) can have bad outcomes (vipaka).

When a suicide bomber blows up tens of people, his intention could be good from his point of view, because he BELIEVES that it will lead to good results for him and his family (that is what they say).

But it does matter what he (or anyone else) believes or intends. What matters is whether that is view is a wrong view in terms of Nature’s laws (which, according to the Buddha, are embodied in dasa akusala, of which micca ditthi is one).
Killing people is itself a strong immoral act. On top of that he has another strong kamma based on his wrong view that killing other people can lead to good results. So, an action like that has bad kammic consequences due to two factors.

Most of Siebe’s comments in that post and the subsequent post above have this incorrect understanding. For example, Siebe said: “Are the thoughts of a materialist per se immoral because he has a wrong view?”
Of course they are immoral thoughts. It is the same thing. Just because they sincerely believe that a life ends with the death of the physical body, that belief is a STRONG micca ditthi. That seems like a harsh statement. But that is true. Rebirth and laws of kamma (rooted in dasa akusala) are foundations of Buddha Dhamma. These are not philosophical issues to be debated on. One either believes them or not. But there are many logical arguments provided by the Buddha for a rational person to see the truth in them. I have explained the importance of getting rid of micca ditthi in many web posts and in several topics in the discussion forum.

This is not different from common law applied in courts. There could be a person X who believes it is moral to steal from the rich and give to poor. But stealing is a crime and he will be punished for that crime. Nature works the same way. Just being ignorant of nature’s laws is not an excuse. One cannot say, one did not know that killing animals for sport is immoral; he/she will be paying for such immoral acts.

Now, anyone is free to believe whatever he/she wants. I am just stating facts according to the Tipitaka. Even the Buddha could not persuade people with strong micca ditthi. So, I am not going to say anymore on this subject. This is a very clear-cut case.

[Lal]

Siebe said, “I do not know for sure if the Budddha taught …”that one cannot and does not need to repay all one’s kammic (sansarik) debt to attain nibbana”.
See for example this lines:
“Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated“.” (END OF QUOTE)
I see that my copy and paste did not come out well. But I have given the referennce link.

Here is the Pali version of the above verse from a sutta (Paṭha­ma Ssañce­tani­ka Sutta, AN 10.217) that Siebe quoted:
“Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi¬saṃ¬ve¬ditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi. Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi¬saṃ¬ve¬ditvā duk¬khas¬san¬takiri¬yaṃ vadāmi.”

The translation given by Siebe is NOT CORRECT. One has to be careful with translations as I keep saying. There is nowhere in the verse that says anything about TERMINATION OF KAMMA. Buddha says there, “ I do not say (na aham) that completed and accumulated kamma done via sancetana (defiled intentions) will not bring (appatisamveditva) vipaka and suffering in this life, paralowa, or in other (future) lives.”

In other words, as long as there are past kamma (unpaid), there is suffering to be had. But it DOES NOT say one has to get rid of all kamma to attain Nibbana. Even though an Arahant (like Angulimala) may have a lot of unpaid kamma left, he would not be reborn with a physical body to bring about those kamma vipaka. This is a VERY IMPORTANT point to understand.

Furthermore, this sutta also confirms what I said about dasa akusala being at the root of all bad kamma vipaka. That part of the sutta translation is correct (after the first several verses). Here is the English version of the sutta, that everyone should read:”217. Volitional (1)“.

Siebe said: “Regarding the suffering the Budddha talks about. He also talks about ending the bodily suffering. Maybe not in this live but in future lives by not grasping a new body again and ending the proces of rebirth.”
That is correct. There is absolutely no suffering upon Paribbana (death of an Arahant) because he/she in not reborn anywhere in the 31 realms of this world. But it is also important to understand that there is no MENTAL suffering (samphassa ja vedana) for a living Arahant; just bodily pains due to past kamma.

By the way, I am planning to write a post on why Kamma is the root cause for bodily suffering. The other seven types mentioned in those three suttas that Siebe mentioned in this discussion, are not ROOT CAUSES, but really effects of past kamma that act as causes. It could take some time, since I am busy with many other things.

Lastly, I just saw the most recent comment by Akvan and agree with it. Akavan said: “However, I need to find a sutta reference to kamma being the root / primary cause. If anyone does come across something please let me know.”
There are many suttas: Kamma vibhanga suttas (2), Kamma Nidana sutta, Kamma suttas, etc. Probably Siebe can provide a long list.

[Lal]

1. There is no doubt that breath meditation can calm the mind. What it does is to keep the mind focused on a neutral object: in this case the breath, but in kasina meditations it is the kasina object like a colored disk. Since those thoughts are devoid of greed and hate, if the focus is kept for extended times, the mind does calm down.

This technique had been perfected by ancient yogis and they had achieved even supernormal powers. But the problem is that it does not do anything to get rid of the avijja or ignorance about the true nature of this world or even to get rid of one’s bad gathi (habits and character qualities). Therefore, if a strong sense input comes, old bad gathi will be re-surfaced and that samadhi WILL BE broken. There are many stories about such yogis losing those supernormal powers by the sight of a sensual object.

I know it is hard to discard the ability to be able to get to a calm state of mind with breath mediation. But in the end it is no better than getting “high” with drugs or alcohol. It is a temporary solution to a deeper problem of suffering associated with the rebirth process. That is what Tobias was trying to explain with the statement, “The technique involves no contemplation and comprehension of the Tilakkhana which the Buddha revealed to the world. The question is how one can attain Nibbana without comprehension of the Tilakkhana?”.
Also, see the post: “A Buddhist or a Bhauddhaya?”

2. Another point is that it is good idea to first figure out what is meant by key words like sankhara.
Chigstarrr said: “For example when a gross and unpleasant sensation arises, one has two choices: 1) To react with aversion, which in fact has the effect of intensifying the sensation or 2) To remain equanimous. That is to simply observe the sensation without valuing or devaluing it. This allows the sankaras to rise to the surface and be dissipated.”

Sankhara are thoughts. They come and go. If the thoughts are on the breath, then there is less opportunity for greed or hateful thoughts to arise, and that is what makes the mind to calm down. The statement, “This allows the sankaras to rise to the surface and be dissipated.”, does not make any sense for explaining what happens. That is just a catch phrase.

But bad thoughts (apunnabhisankhara) are really bad vaci sankhara done by one’s conscious thoughts. They are a form of kamma and can bring bad kamma vipaka in the future. So, the permanent solution for the problem involves the mind to get rid of wrong views, habits, and to stay away from immoral deeds (dasa akusala). One aspect of this is discussed in “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra”

3.The real vipassana is about analyzing why such greedy or hateful thoughts arise, see their bad consequences and to get rid of them. Just by getting the mind off of such thoughts by focusing on breath is not a real solution. If bad consequences of hateful thoughts, for example, sink in the mind, then such thoughts will gradually cease to arise. That is the more permanent solution. This is what is explained in the “Maha Satipatthana Sutta”.

4. So, if one’s goal is to achieve temporary “a peace of mind”, then such meditation retreats will serve that purpose. But if one really needs to understand the key message of the Buddha, one first needs to understand what that is. This is explained in the post: “A Buddhist or a Bhauddhaya?” and in, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” among others.

[Lal]

Do good kamma (good actions by the body, speech, and mind) lead to good results? The answer is YES.

Bhikkhu Bodhi’s above translation in the post by Siebe above is 100% accurate.

This is why I emphasize the basics. At the very foundation of Buddha Dhamma is dasa akusala. That is the yard stick to be used to determine between good and bad or moral and immoral.

How is a kamma determined to be good or bad?

If a kamma involves any of the dasa akusala, then it is a bad or immoral kamma, and it will bring bad results.

There are three bad kamma done by the body, four by speech, and three by the mind. The most important one people tend to forget: micca ditthi.
If a kamma is done with micca ditthi, that is a bad or immoral kamma, and WILL bring in bad results.

The opposites of the 10 types of micca ditthi are the “correct views” and WILL bring in good results within this world, i.e., good births in higher realms, health, wealth, beauty, etc.

There are two levels of mica ditthi. First one needs to remove the ten types of micca ditthi.
Then one can start on the Noble Eightfold Path AFTER learning about the deeper level of micca ditthi. That is to realize that it is a wrong view to believe that things in this world can bring long-term happiness. This second level of wrong views are dispelled when one comprehends Tilakkhana, the Three Characteristics of this world: anicca, dukkha, anatta.

The strongest immoral deeds are done by the 10 types of micca ditthi. They inevitably lead to suffering and can lead to rebirth in the apayas.

One can attain Nibbana only by getting rid of the second level of micca ditthi, i.e, only by comprehending Tilakkhana. Thus ultimate and permanent happiness can be attained only by getting rid of second level of micca ditthi.

Both types of micca ditthi are discussed in the post:
Micca Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sotapanna Stage

[Lal]

@Siebe regarding the working of kamma in the airline crash over Ukraine: This is related to the annantara samanantara paccaya (don’t be discouraged by the tittle):
Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya

The conditions became suitable for a strong kamma beeja (for each person accrued at possibly different times) to ripen at that time. The key is to realize that we all have billions and even trillions of kamma beeja piled up over our deep past; so, it is possible that there could be many people subjected to the same incident such as that plane crash. We also see that sometimes there are miraculous survivals.

Let me make some general comments that could be helpful (I am spending a lot of time on this issue, because I think it is an important topic for all; grasping basic concepts is critical in following Buddha Dhamma).

First, an important thing to realize is that the three types of kamma are done by Mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara:
Sankhāra – What It Really Means

Then, there are two ways to look at this problem of kamma and kamma vipaka.
1.One can try to analyze and figure out how vipaka arise with kamma (by the mind, speech, and bodily actions; but they all originate in the mind). But one may not able to figure out the finer details.
2. One can take Buddha’s word that bad vipaka arise due to bad (immoral) kamma, and good vipaka arise due to good kamma. This basically means one lives one’s life avoiding dasa akusala and cultivating kusala.

The Buddha also said that kamma is one of five things that a normal human cannot fully comprehend. Instead one should try to get the basic ideas involved. More deeper analyses involve paticca samuppada (cause and effect) and patthana dhamma (conditions for causes to bring in effects). You can search for relevant posts using the “Search” box.

The best approach is to do both 1 and 2, but 2 must have the priority. This is because with 2, one can start feeling the benefits of a moral life (calmness of mind) and that also helps understand concepts in 1. This is discussed starting from basic levels in the Bhavana (Meditation) and Living Dhamma sections.

Furthermore, one can read the posts under this forum topic from the beginning and that should help too.

Finally, even though kamma is not deterministic, one can get trapped in kamma/kamma vipaka cycle (as we all have been so far), as long as we do not comprehend the real nature of this world (avijja). The only way to get out of this cycle is to attain Nibbana by comprehending Buddha Dhamma (by following the Noble Eightfold Path).

This vicious cycle of “vipāka” leading to “kammā” leading to more “vipāka” is the process that binds us to the sansara of endless rebirths, or perpetuate our “world” of suffering.
The Buddha described this as, “kammā vipākā vaddanti, vipākō kamma sambhavō, tasmā punabbhavō hōti, evan lokō pavattati“.

That means, “kammā lead to vipāka, vipāka in turn lead to kammā and thus to rebirth (punabbhavō), and that is how the world (existence) is maintained”.
There “sambhava” is “san” + “bhava“, or “adding more existences”. Also, “lōka” is world, and “pavatta” means “maintain”. See:
How Are Paticca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?

As I said above, without doing both 1 and 2 above, it is not possible to make progress.

[Author]

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