[sybe07]

It is said that a sotapanna has glimpsed Nibbana. Untill now i have not seen this been said in the sutta’s but i suppose it is true.

This “Glimpsing Nibbana”, what does that exactly mean?

Does one experience for a short time the cessation of all sense-impression? Does one experience nirodha samapatti? Does one experience some kind of voidness?

Does one maybe experience/see this for the first time: “There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.” (Udana 8.1)

Does sotapanna stage really refer to a breaktrough in direct experience/seeing of Nibbana or is it more a vision/view that arises, or a combination?

Siebe

[Tien]

Hi sybe07,

I have this experience that I don’t know what it is, maybe relate to Nibbana or maybe it just a problem with my physical health, it occur to me infrequently:
For a very brief moment, all of my “senses-impression” (including mana indriya) disappear completely, like an inner power outage, or an inner collapse, it’s all black, no self-talking, no feelings, no everything, it’s very hard to explain by words, it not mere black but there is something to it and I can’t know what inside of it because I wouldn’t know anyway (there is no senses operate while this state happens). And it was very brief that I can’t even taste what it’s like. But quickly, the senses automatically coming back, like they want to grasp on life and bring life back, and they switch on again, I don’t quite remember that the senses switch on one-by-one or all-at-once.

This state often occur to me when I lying down, deeply relax, sometime it just randomly happen out of nowhere, but mostly while I’m lying down. I had experienced this state back when I was a little child and not known about true Buddha Dhamma. It happens less and less as I grow up.

In 2018, I found the true Dhamma, so I wouldn’t miss a chance and immediately practice it, my persona changed dramatically, as I experienced the benefits of Buddha Dhamma, I also gain unbreakable faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and in this year I was experienced this senses absence phenomenal like 1 or 2 times.

EDIT: I personally never put a high importance on my abnormal experiences, it may just simply relate to my health problems, environment or something else, hard to discern.
So, gaining wisdom and practice the Path is the most important.

About the requisites for the Sotapanna stage, there is a whole Samyutta session dedicated to explain in detail about the Sotapanna, please read Sotapatti Samyutta (SN55). And on PureDhamma.net there is many posts that explained in details about Sotapanna stage and related issues.

[Christian]

“For a very brief moment, all of my “senses-impression” (including mana indriya) disappear completely” = Not Nibbana

“For a very brief moment, all of my “senses-impression” (including mana indriya) disappear completely” = Not Nibbana, very wrong experience.

[sybe07]

AN9.47 describes the topic of a directly visible Nibbana, i saw.

The sutta explains that Nibbana is seen in a provisional sense (according translation Bodhi) while one is abiding in jhana, in all of them. And Nibbana is directly seen in a non-provisional sense when asava’s end completely, for example, after experiencing sannavedayitanirodha.

I think this support the idea that ‘directly seeing Nibbana’ refers to experiencing the cooling down of the mind due to the temporary or definitive cessation of defilements.

But sometimes it seems Nibbana is something completely different as in Udana 8.1, a sphere where there is no this word or other world, where the big elements cannot establish themselves etc.

This is find confusing.

Siebe

[Lal]

Tien wrote: ” it’s all black, no self-talking, no feelings, no everything, it’s very hard to explain by words, it not mere black but there is something to it and I can’t know what inside of it because I wouldn’t know anyway (there is no senses operate while this state happens.”

Do you really “see the blackness during that whole time” or does it just flashes black and then you are out until you “come back”?
– In other words, does it remain black during the “out time”?

[Tien]

Lal wrote:
“Do you really “see the blackness during that whole time” or does it just flashes black and then you are out until you “come back”?
– In other words, does it remain black during the “out time”?”

I can’t say exactly, initially it can be describe as collapse into a darkness void or turn off a light bulb, then all senses and its consciousnesses cease so I can’t tell what’s happened or how long it happens, after a brief moment (as it seems) I regain consciousnesses, I can clearly feel that they (the consciousnesses) automatically grasp on life and bring it back because the experience feels like I’m going to extinct, like they re-climb a vertical cliff, despite I want to stay or not.

[Lal]

Being conscious means generating thoughts (citta).

We lose consciousness (i.e., do not generate thoughts) under the following conditions:
– Deep sleep
– While being unconscious either due to a traumatic injury or under anesthesia.

In addition, an Arahant can DELIBERATELY get into nirodha samapatti for up to 7 days, where again no thoughts are generated.
– In order to get into nirodha samapatti, one must go through the four rupavacara jhana first, and then successively go to higher arupavacara jhana up to the highest, the “neva sanna na sanna” state. From there, an Arahant can make a determination on how long to stay in nirodha samapatti and get into it. (other yogis may be bale to get to the “neva sanna na sanna” state, but CANNOT get in to nirodha samapatti).
– Just like while being unconscious in the above mentioned “mundane situations”, the physical body of an Arahant in nirodha samapatti is kept alive by kammic energy.

Attaining Nibbana (or the Arahanthood) does not mean losing thoughts. One just will not generate any DEFILED thoughts; this is also called saupadisesa Nibbana.
– That is called “vinnana nirodha”, where vinnana is a defiled mindset, where defiled thoughts may be generated.
– However, when the physical body of an Arahant dies, another birth in the 31 realms does not happen. Thus thoughts (citta) cease to exist PERMANENTLY and the Arahant merges with the Nibbana dhatu (element) or attains anupadisesa Nibbana.
– Two types are Nibbana were discussed here: “Reply To: Nibbana, not of this world?“.

I think that summarizes all possibilities for “ceasing consciousness”.

[sybe07]

@Tien,
I cannot comment on your experience Tien because of lack of knowledge but thanks for sharing. When i read such things i find it a quality that one does not fear what happens. This lack of fear is not self-evident.

thanks and wish you the best,
Siebe

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