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Tobias wrote: “That is clear, Lal. What I mean is this: #3 says that ALL wrong views are removed with removal of sakkaya ditthi. But this is not the case. The Sotapanna still has wrong views e.g. about kama raga..”.
This is an important point that requires another post to discuss in detail. However, I have discussed it in a discourse about Tilakkhana; see below.
1. A Sotapanna has removed sakkya ditthi and thus ALL wrong VIEWS.
2. However, there are 3 types of “muddled views/perceptions/thoughts” called VIPALLASA (pronounced “vipallaasa”) about this world of 31 realms.
– Those are ditthi vipallasa, sannna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa.3. A Sotapanna has removed all 3 types of vipallasa about anicca and anatta nature.
– He/she has also removed ditthi vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature (in this analysis, asubha is also included in addition to Tilakkhana).
– Therefore, he/she has removed all types of DITTHI vipallasa.4. An Anagami has removed sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature. Kama raga and patigha are removed only when one removes sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature.
5. Only an Arahant has removed all three vipallasa about anicca, dukkha, anatta, and asubha nature.
This was discussed briefly in #12 of the post, “Ditthi, Saññā, and Sankhāra – How They Relate“.
It is discussed in more detail at: Discourse 3 – Distorted Perceptions or Saññā Vipallāsa; see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Tobias wrote: “I would say, with the removal of sakkaya ditthi one removes the 10 types of micca ditthi…”
You may want to think about the following.
There are two eightfold paths, see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the post referred to therein.
– Also see, “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“.In brief:
– There are two eightfold paths.
– First, one needs to follow the mundane eightfold path and get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi.
– The deeper wrong views of nicca, sukha, atta can be removed and one can then comprehend the real nature of this world of 31 realms (only after one gets rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi); see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
– When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna and starts on the Noble Eightfold Path.June 22, 2019: Just published a relevant post: “Sakkāya Ditthi – Getting Rid of Deeper Wrong Views“.
Thank you, AxelSnaxel, for opening this topic.
I have presented some information in the following posts:
“Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years”
“Abnormal Births Due to Gandhabba Transformations”
“Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)”
“Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipiṭaka”
There could be more relevant posts. I just remember those offhand.
– It would be nice if someone reading the forum has had any such experiences (OBE, NDE, etc) and can provide an account of that experience.
@Christian: I am just curious. Which points of AxelSnaxel above do you not believe?This is a good question. It has been asked in different forms, and the following discussion at this forum last year provides some explanations:
“Can an arahant or sotapanna become a Buddha?”
We can discuss more if you or anyone else has more questions.
That is the logical conclusion, Tobias.
However, I am not 100% certain about that applying to devas. Devas have very fine bodies compared to humans, but those are “much more dense” than bodies of brahmas. Devas can utilize all five physical senses (but of course, we cannot directly compare their experiences to ours).
– We do know that human Arahants do live “in this world” until the death of the physical body and attain Parinibbana (full Nibbana or total dissociation from “this world of 31 realms”) only when the physical body dies and the gandhabba separates from it.
– But I do not recall “direct accounts” in the Tipitaka about devas or brahmas attaining Parinibbana upon attaining the Arahanthood. However, since the “body” of a brahma is just a few suddhashtaka just like a human gandhabba coming out of a dead human body, it is very likely that a brahma attains Parinibbana upon attaining the Arahanthood.
– On the other hand, I also have not seen any accounts about “Arahant devas or brahmas” in the Tipitaka either.“Things” or “events” in this world arise due to six root causes (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha).
– Lobha, dosa, moha lead to rebirths in the apayas (four lowest realms).
– Alobha, adosa, amoha lead to rebirths in human and higher realms.
– All those perpetuate sansaric journey (rebirth process), and thus binds one to suffering filled “this world of 31 realms”.Those are the causes. When those causes are removed nothing in this can arise, and one attains Nibbana.
There are no causes for Nibbana. That is why it is called asankata.
– Nibbana RESULTS when all six causes are removed by cultivating panna, i.e., by comprehending the true nature of this world.Cultivation of panna is not a cause. It is the Path to Nibbaba (via removing all six root causes).
Regarding Rishi’s comments: I may have left out some important facts about those “first humans” on this Earth. This sutta requires many posts to discuss various aspects.
1. Those “first humans” are called “brahma kayika” because their bodies were very fine. But they had the ability travel through air, see long distances, hear things far away, etc (basically like brahmas).
2. So, it is not possible to compare them to single-cell organisms. They had more capabilities than present-day humans.
3. Things started going “downhill” when old “bad gati” started to come back in those early humans. With them came more and more hardships.
4. After long times (probably hundreds of millions of years), they lost “free food” and had to grow food, for example.
5. Furthermore, their desire for sexual relationships also cam back, and that is when the bodies got denser and sex organs started to appear. That probably took a few billions of years, but that is just a guess. No precise times are given in the sutta. Always says, “after long times”.
6. Also, those with “very bad gati” started being born as animals gradually, again “after long times”. Same for beings in the other lower realms. They were all humans at the beginning.
7. Therefore, any animal, peta, asura, hell being today was a human in the beginning. Thus any single cell organism living today has gone through a “downward path”.
8. But of course, it is very likely that we had been in those lower realms too before moving up to born human again. Scientists estimate the age of the Earth to be about 4.5 billion years. That is a very long time! We are likely to have had births in most of the 31 realms many times over, especially in the lowest four realms.
These are things to think about carefully.
Yes. That is correct.
The post you referred to is a good one: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti”
Hello Lang,
Yes. Nibbana is a difficult to understand for many. The reason for that is that one needs to have knowledge/belief in rebirth and the wider world view of 31 realms in order to understand Nibbana.
Contrary to what most people believe, repeated rebirth in this world of 31 realms has much more suffering than any short periods of happiness, in the long run.For most of us in the human realm happiness seems to be more frequent than any suffering. There is even more happiness in deva and brahma realms.
However, living being spend much more time in the four lowest realms compared to time they gte to spend in human and higher realms. This may be hard to believe, but the Buddha said that it is indeed the case; see, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“.
– That is because most beings do immoral things to enjoy life, and anyone who has not attained a magga phala CAN BE tempted to immoral things if the temptation is high enough.Now, Nibbana and “this world of 31 realms” are totally detached. The Buddha said that Nibbana exists, but it cannot be described by the terminology of “this world”. Furthermore, and most importantly, there is no a trace of suffering in Nibbana.
When one attains Parinibbana, one will be totally removed from this suffering-filled world and one will be in Nibbana. More details at, “Nibbana“.
This is a bit easier to understand in terms of the four ultimate entities: rupa, citta, cetasika, and Nibbana.
– The first three belong to “this world” and Nibbana is totally detached from “this world”. In other words, Nibbana and “this world’ are mutually exclusive. One can be either in “this world” or in Nibbana.
– So, it is true that citta, cetasika, and rupa do not exist in Nibbana.But other than the fact that there is no suffering in Nibbana, we do not know what would be the “experience of Nibbana”. Only those who can get to Nirodha Samapatti can “experience” Nibbana while in this world (only up to 7 days).
– Even though beings in the asanna realm do not experience citta vithi as you mentioned, they “come back to this world” when their lifetime expires. Thus even though suffering stops for the duration of that lifetime, their suffering does not end.On the other hand, when one merges with Nibbana (at Parinibbana), there is no coming to “this world” that is filled with suffering. Suffering is stopped permanently.
Thanks for posting this sutta, y not.
It is an important short sutta that actually explains what sakkāya ditthi is.The following is my translation of the sutta. The Pali version is “Catutthaabhabbaṭṭhāna Sutta (AN 6.95)“.
“A Sotapanna (or one with higher magga phala) accomplished in view (diṭṭhisampanno puggalo) is unable (abhabbo) to fall back on the idea that pleasure and pain are made by oneself (sayaṃkataṃ), or that they’re made by another (paraṃkataṃ), or that they’re made by both (sayaṃkatañca paraṃkatañca). Nor can they fall back on the idea that pleasure and pain arise by chance, not made by oneself, by another, or by both (asayaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ, aparaṅkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ, asayaṅkārañca aparaṅkārañca adhiccasamuppannaṃ).
Why is that? It is because a person accomplished in view has clearly seen that phenomena arise due to causes and conditions (according to Paticca Samuppāda). Those are the six things that a Sotapanna (or one with higher magga phala) accomplished in view will not fall back to”.This is exactly what we have been discussing in the most recent posts and the one I will be posting in a few days about Sakkāya Ditthi:
1. There is no “attā” or a “soul” or an “ātma” doing those things.
2. Those kamma vipāka (pleasure or pain ) materialize due to two things:
– Causes were created in the past based on the “gati” of the lifestream AT THAT TIME.
– And those vipāka materialized when suitable CONDITIONS were present (at a later time).
– That process is described by Paticca Samuppāda.
3. This is why understanding “gati” is so important. One may have had “bad gati” in the past and those can bring “bad vipāka” now EVEN IF one has “good gati” now.
This is why even the Buddha had to bear bad kamma vipāka. Even though he had “no gati left”, he had to endure the results of past kamma done when he had “bad gati”.If one can clearly understand this, one has removed or at least getting close to removing sakkāya ditthi.
Recent relevant posts:
Anattā in Anattalakkahana Sutta – No Soul or an ĀtmaYamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering
Idappaccayatā Paticca Samuppāda and “uppatti Paticca Samuppada” in that section.
Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra
This will become even more clear (hopefully) with the upcoming post on sakkāya ditthi.
y not has written to me and saying that he was unable to post the following comment here. I am sorry about that and do not know why that is. If anyone else is having problems posting, please let me know: [email protected].
Here is the comment by y not:
95. Things that can’t be done (4) Catutthaabhabbaṭṭhānasutta: “Things That Can’t Be Done (4th) AN 6.95)”
A person accomplished in view can’t fall back on the idea that pleasure and pain are made by oneself, or that they’re made by another, or that they’re made by both. Nor can they fall back on the idea that pleasure and pain arise by chance, not made by oneself, by another, or by both.
Why is that? It is because a person accomplished in view ‘has clearly seen causes and the phenomena that arise from causes.’ These are the six things that can’t be done.”
Chayimāni, bhikkhave, abhabbaṭṭhānāni. Katamāni cha? Abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ, abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo paraṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ, abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo sayaṃkatañca paraṃkatañca sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ, abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo asayaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ, abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo aparaṅkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ, abhabbo diṭṭhisampanno puggalo asayaṅkārañca aparaṅkārañca adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paccāgantuṃ. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathā hissa, bhikkhave, diṭṭhisampannassa puggalassa hetu ca sudiṭṭho hetusamuppannā ca dhammā. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, cha abhabbaṭṭhānānī”ti.
Ekādasamaṃ.
Sītivaggo navamo.
Sītibhāvaṃ āvaraṇaṃ,
voropitā sussūsati;
Appahāya pahīnābhabbo,The wording here is different from DN 33, AND this sutta is talking about Satopannas (Ditthisampanno). If he has ‘clearly seen causes and the phenomena that arise from causes’ who else created the causes but he (‘he’ in the conventional sense) for as such the ‘he’ who created those causes in the past was other than the one who now ‘sees the phenomena that arise from those causes’, and in another way, the same one. In the sense that, we know that this life is a result of a past kamma, but, other than through abhinna powers, we know nothing of the cause, we cannot recollect it. All we do know is that effects arise from causes.
Perhaps this sutta may provide someone a hint or two in clarifying DN 33 ??
So, keeping to the sutta and applying it also to DN 33:For a new existence, intention (DN 33) and for the experiencing of pleasure and pain (AN 6.95)
Did I create the cause? -No
Did someone else create the cause? -No
Did both I and someone else create the cause? -No
Did no one create the cause (by pure chance)? – NoAm I somewhere?
In order to make it more clear, I will translate the whole verse containing that fragment:
“Katamesu catūsu? Idhānanda, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Tassa kāye kāyānupassino viharato kāyārammaṇo vā uppajjati kāyasmiṃ pariḷāho, cetaso vā līnattaṃ, bahiddhā vā cittaṃ vikkhipati. Tenānanda, bhikkhunā kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahitabbaṃ. Tassa kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahato pāmojjaṃ jāyati. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati. Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati. Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedayati. Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. So iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘yassa khvāhaṃ atthāya cittaṃ paṇidahiṃ, so me attho abhinipphanno. Handa dāni paṭisaṃharāmī’ti. So paṭisaṃharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti. ‘Avitakkomhi avicāro, ajjhattaṃ satimā sukhamasmī’ti pajānāti“.
Translated:
“What four? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu having removed covetousness and displeasure (abhijjhādomanassaṃ) regard to the world, dwells contemplating the body and its actions (kāye kāyānupassī) with comprehension and mindfulness. If there arises in him any distracting thoughts or sluggishness of the mind, he should focus his mind on an inspiring sign (pasādanīye nimitta). Then joy will arise in him which will intensify to rapture. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences bodily sukha, which leads to samādhi. He reflects thus: ‘I have fully accomplished the goal of attaining citta pasāda by focusing on fruitful actions/thoughts. Let me now withdraw from that inspiring sign (focus or nimitta). So he withdraws the mind from that nimitta and does not maintain that focus (vitakka) or examine it in detail (vicāra) anymore. He understands: ‘Without even focusing or examining such a good nimitta, internally concentrated (ajjhattam satimā), I realize that I am happy“.The point is that once he gets to samādhi, there is no need to focus on a nimitta to keep experiencing the joy in the mind and sukha in the body.
1. First, “reincarnation” is a bad translation for “attabhāvapaṭilābha”.
– Reincarnation implies an “everlasting entity” taking different forms in different births.
As we discussed in the post, “Anattā in Anattalakkahana Sutta – No Soul or an Ātma”, “atta” has a mundane meaning and a transcendental (lokuttara) meaning.2. In the mundane sense, “attabhāva” can imply a certain birth or existence, say as a human, a deva, or an animal. Even when a human is reborn he can be said to have “another attabhava”.
– However, as we saw in that post, in reality there is “attā” like a “soul” being reborn (this is again why reincarnation is a bad translation).
3. Therefore, one needs to be careful in determining in what sense the term “attabhāva” is used in a particular instance.
– In the sutta that y not referred to (“Saṅgīti Sutta (DN 33)“), Ven. Sariputta just listed those four types of “attabhāva”, likely to be in the lokuttara sense; he did not elaborate on the four categories. I don’t have time to look into that right now. May be others can comment on that.
– English translation at the same website: “The Recital (DN 33)“.4. The Buddha provided explanations for both mundane and lokuttara versions in the “Poṭṭhapāda Sutta (DN 9)“.
– English translation there: “To Poṭṭhapada (DN 9)“. I have not read that, so I am not sure how good the translation is.
