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Upekkha asked:” 1) If sobhana cetasika cools down the mind, then can punnabhisankhara be considered as stressful?”
No. Punnabhisankhara are not stressful. They help reduce stress, as I mentioned.
– The suffering associated with kaya sankhara involve “bodily work.”
– It is that “physical work” that makes even punna kamma stressful.For example, when you help an elderly person to cross the street, that takes some effort. Of course, sobhana cetasika that arise in the mind makes that less stressful.
The key point is that “sabbe sankhara anicca”, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” etc can be clearly seen as one proceeds to higher levels on the Path.
First one needs to realize the dangers of APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA and the need to engage in PUNNA ABHI SANKHARA.
– Then, as one starts to comprehend Tilakkhana, SOME of those APUNNA ABHI SANKHARA will automatically become KUSALA KAMMA.
– At that stage, one would be able to start seeing the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of ALL SANKHARA.I think it is good to try to clarify the following in a bit more detail.
Upekkha wrote: “Sabbe sankhara dukkha=all sankhara ARE suffering.
So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”Yes. I clearly stated in previous replies that all sankhara are suffering.
This suffering comes in two ways.
– There is suffering (at least striving) while doing the deed. That is the sankhara stage.
– For apunnabhisankhara, the stronger suffering is in the future, as a kamma vipaka, per Paticca Samuppada.So, those who are suffering in the apayas NOW, are suffering due to the PREVIOUS sankhara. The current suffering in the apayas is due to vipaka.
We can take three examples to clarify.
1. Suppose X kills another person by stabbing.
– That killing ORIGINATED due to kaya sankhara that arose in X’s mind. Those thoughts then were translated to the action of killing (kaya kamma) that REQUIRED an effort. Furthermore, those thoughts also were not good thoughts and made X’s mind very agitated, which is also a part of the suffering at the moment of doing the bad deed.
– However, much worse suffering comes in a future rebirth in an apaya DUE TO that bad kamma. That future rebirth results from the uppatti PS process.2. Now let us take an example of X doing a good deed (say building a hospital) with punnabhisankhara, but without comprehension of Tilakkhana.
– That effort of building the hospital and related planning etc is the “suffering” at that moment. Some of that “suffering” will be counter-balanced by the “good state of mind.”
– But the kamma vipaka that come in the future could lead to a birth in a Deva realm.
– Yet, that return is “temporary.” After “getting paid” for the good deed, X will be back to where he was on the rebirth process.3. On the other hand, if X was a Sotapanna (and built that hospital with some comprehension of Tilakkhana), that will help X to advance to the next stage of Nibbana. Then there is progress towards ending future suffering.
In ALL three cases, there was suffering (striving) at the time of doing the deeds (i.e., at the time of GENERATING sankhara.)
– That is what is meant by “sabbe sankhara dukkha”
– After Parinibbana, no more “sankhara” and no more suffering.
– By the way, that is the other part, “sabbe sankhara anicca.” All “good and bad sankhara” come to an end with Parinibbana.Yes. You are right, y not. I was thinking about Sakadagami removing all desires for human birth. I just revised my above reply to be consistent.
Anyway, I cannot understand what you are trying to ask about a Sakadagami. Just send me an email detailing fully what you are asking. Please do not post here until I understand your question.
y not wrote: “-3. with both at once: ”
That is not possible.
– Comprehension of Tilakkha at the level of a Sakadagami will lose ANY and ALL cravings for a human existence.y not: Now I am totally lost. What SANNA are you talking about?
Is this regarding my post of January 7, 2020 at 4:50 pm?
Please quote the whole paragraph that I wrote (that is not clear) and re-phrase the question as if it is a new question. Do not refer to any back and forth above. Let us start afresh. Take time and formulate the question.
y not: I just revised the “could” to “can” in #2 that you referred to.
I did not mean any uncertainty there.
– That was an unintentional error on my part.By the way, when you ask a question, try to focus on the issue. If you just quoted what I wrote and asked for clarification, that is all you had to do. When you write a whole paragraph, the point can get lost.
– Make it a habit to quote from what I write (just the relevant part.) Then it is easier for me to see what the issue is.Upekkha: “So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?”
This does not make sense. Vipaka are not sankhara.
Hello Aniduan,
The following could be his youtube channel:
Path to NibbhanaIf not, let me know. I can check with him and find the right one.
y not, answers to your questions (as I understand) could be in the following explanation.
1. Once one becomes an Ariya by comprehending Tilakkhana to SOME EXTENT, one would not do any apunnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– That is the base level of comprehending anicca nature, which convinces that mind of the dangers of such apayagami sankhara.2. Then the next level is a bit deeper. That convinces one of the dangers in the attachment to sensual pleasures.
– Attachment to sensual pleasures is lost in two stages of Sakadagami and Anagami.
– Then one would do punnabhisankhara that can lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms ONLY with a higher level of comprehension of Tilakkhana.3. The final stage is Arahanthood.
– At that point, one would have seen the futility of rupavacara and arupavacara jhana (i.e., the futility of such “jhanic pleasures” or the temporary existences that result from them.)
– Thus, an Arahant would do any punnabhisankhara or anenjabhisankhara only with FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana.4. Finally, either akusala-mula OR kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) would not be applicable to any actions by an Arahant.
– There is no avijja left to initiate akusala-mula PS starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– There are no akusala to be removed via the kusala-mula PS starting with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– Whatever sankhara by an Arahant involve only kammically neutral deeds (walking, eating, etc) and also punnabhisankhara/anenjabhisankhara (good deeds and cultivation of Ariya jhana) with the FULL COMPREHENSION of Tilakkhana. Those latter are called punna kriya, not punna kamma.If it is still not clear, you may want to go back and read my previous comments.
– They explain the same in different ways.Of course, you can re-phrase any un-answered questions.
– This is a good conversation to have in order to clarify these critical points.1. Not all sankhara lead to dukkha.
– The Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada” that leads to Nibbana starts with “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara“.
– So, there are sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. In fact, those above lead to stop suffering.
– Specifically, those “good sankhara” are “punnabhisankhara done with comprehension of Tilakkhana.”2. Of course, suffering arises due to many types of sankhara. Those are apunnabhisankhara, anenjabhi sankhara, and punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana).
– Apunnabhisankhara lead to rebirths in the apayas.
– Anenjabhi sankhara (arupavacara jhana) lead to rebirths in arupavacara Brahma realms.
– Punnabhisankhara (done without comprehension of Tilakkhana) lead to rebirths in “other good realms” (human, deva realms, and rupavacara brahma realms.) Good, moral deeds lead to rebirths in the human and deva realms. Rupavacara jhana lead to rebirths in the rupavacara brahma realms.
– The last two (Anenjabhi sankhara and Punnabhisankhara) also DO NOT lead to the end of suffering.Upekkha wrote:In this site sankhara has been defined as THOUGHTS, even kaya sankhara. For example vaci sankhara is not the speech itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to speech. Kaya sankhara is not the bodily action itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to the bodily action.
So in “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha”, the “sankhara” does not include speech itself or bodily action itself? It just means thoughts? As in “all THOUGHTS are anicca” or “all THOUGHTS are suffering?”
It is not only at this site that sankhara are thoughts. Sankhara are thoughts, period.
– Many people just do not KNOW what sankhara are!
– Just saying “mental formations” does not give the idea, even though it is not incorrect. It just does not have an impact.
– We need to realize that what we think, speak, and do, ALL depend on our MINDS.If someone says “sankhara are not thoughts” ask him/her to explain what sankhara are.
Yes. All sankhara are thoughts. It does not mean we have to think for a long time to do something. It just means any speech or action requires a thought that arises in the mind.
Some thoughts arise spontaneously due to our gati!
– But one can ALWAYS stop any speech or action even if it starts due to gati. Just try it!
– That is the basis of Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
– When we practice Anapanasati/Satipatthana, our gati will change. That is the idea!I am glad that you have thought through this.
The verse that you quoted DOES NOT say that “sabbe sankhara LEAD TO dukkha.”
It just says, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” OR “All sankhara are suffering.”So, “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara” are the types of sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. But one still has to strive to attain Nibbana. There is an EFFORT involved.
1. Those Paticca Samuppada (PS) cycles that lead to suffering ALWAYS start with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– Those sankhara that lead to suffering are defined in the Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga: “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro“.
Translated: “What is avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra, kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, cittasaṅkhāra“.
– See #14 in the post: “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)”2. Those PS cycles that lead to the end of suffering start with “akusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– These types of sankhara DO NOT belong to the above kinds.
– See, “Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada”As I explained in my previous comment above, the difference between punnabhisankhara that LEAD TO rebirth (in good realms) and those that LEAD TO Nibbana is one’s comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta (or the Four Noble Truths or Paticca Samuppada.)
– Punnabhisankhara become “kusala-mula sankhara” with the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta.All posts on Paticca Samuppada at: “Paticca Samuppāda“
You are close, Sybe.
*kama asava can lead to existence in kama realms (four apayas, human, and six deva realms).
– When one does immoral actions to enjoy sensory pleasures, that lead to births in the apayas.
– kama asava goes away at the Anagami stage.*bhava asava can lead to any existence. It is the desire to exist in a certain bhava or to attain a certain status. This goes away only at the Arahant stage.
*ditthi asava arises due to various wrong views. One can be born in the apayas due to wrong views.
– It goes away when one gets to Samma Ditthi, i.e., when one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami.* avijja asava is due to the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (or Paticca Samuppada or Tilakkhana)
– It is removed in stages and is completely removed only at the Arahant stage.See my posts on January 3rd and 4th, 2020 under the topic “Good Discourse on Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.”
Good comments/questions, Upekkha.
You wrote: “1) Am I correct in the analysis of how punnabisankhara and apunnabhisankhara lead to dukkha? Apunnabhisankhara leads to bad kamma which leads to bad kamma vipaka which causes dukkha/suffering. Punnabhisankhara leads to good kamma which leads to good kamma vipaka, but this good kamma vipaka will not last forever and has to end which will cause dukkha/suffering.”
– That is right.You wrote: “2) I think I may have understood how apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara leads to suffering. But I can’t understand how neutral sankhara leads to dukkha. Neutral sankhara like drinking water or walking leads to neutral kamma with no future consequences, nothing good nor bad.”
– You are again correct that it is not easy to see how dukkha can arise from “neutral actions” that you mentioned. The key is to realize that one needs to first remove sufferings that are clearly seen at one’s stage on the Path.
– We need to look at this way. Anyone can clearly see the suffering that most animals go through. If one has faith in the Buddha, one will also believe that even worse suffering exists in other three apayas. Such rebirths occur due to apunnabhisankhara. They must be first stopped.
– As we can also see, there is suffering even in the human realm. A birth in the human realm is due to punnabhisankhara. As you mentioned, births in any realm end with death and suffering. So, suffering exists in ALL realms even if higher realms have relatively more “pleasures.” Thus the next step is to see the anicca nature and to see the fruitlessness of even punnabhisankhara.
– Anyone below the Anagami stage should really not worry about those “neutral sankhara.” There is the suffering associated with eating, drinking, and even breathing! All those take an effort, even though we do not think about it.
– One has to make a living to eat and drink. So, that is somewhat easier to see. But even breathing takes an effort. This can be seen when one gets to the fourth jhana samapatti and the breathing stops. That relief is seen at that time. This is why it is said that an Arahant looks forward to Parinibbana (death of the physical body.)You wrote: “3) Same as above, I can’t understand how doing kusala kamma or doing Anapana could lead to suffering.”
– The key to realizing here is that punnabhisankhara are not the same as kusala kamma. Punnabhisankhara are punna kamma and lead to rebirths in “good realms.” Rebirth process is stopped with kusala kamma. So, real kusala kamma and correct Anapanasati (with the comprehension of anicca nature) lead to the stopping of the rebirth process (via four stages of magga phala).
– Of course, one MUST do kusala kamma and/or punna kamma (both come under “good deeds”). The first goal is to stay away from the apayas. In fact, before the Sotapanna (at least the Sotapanna Anugami) stage, most kusala kamma one does are only punna kamma.
– That is a bit of a deep point. When one does a punna kamma one may have at least a subtle expectation of a “good return” for that action. Punna kamma are the “good actions” done before grasping Tilakkhana. The same actions automatically become kusala kamma when one can “see” the unfruitfulness of rebirths in any realm (i.e., anicca nature).
– Some punna kamma AUTOMATICALLY becomes a kusala kamma when one gets to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Then as one makes progress, more and more types of punna kamma will become kusala kamma.
