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Thanks, Siebe and y not.
Very useful information. Much merits to you both.
I have added the links to y not’s post. It is a good idea to read the English translation.
Lang asked, “Is this gandhabba the same word used in a different context? Or is it just mistranslated into “musician”.”
It is definitely not correct to say a gandhabba is a musician.
But as Seng Kiat points out, such descriptions are in dictionaries and in other texts.
As we have discussed, there can be human and animal gandhabbas. Both kinds have subtle “bodies” (more like “energy bodies”), that can get a bit denser by taking in the aroma (smells) of various kinds. Even then we cannot see them.
There are also some (lower level) devas called gandhabbas. In fact, there is a Tipitaka account of such a “deva gandhabba” who was a musician. I don’t remember the name of the sutta, but one time the King of the devas (Sakka) came to see the Buddha, accompanied by a deva gandhabba who was a musician (in deva loka). He played some kind of a musical instrument to get Buddha’s attention in that case.
– That could be how that definition got into the dictionary!I just entered, “suddhatthaka” and it gave one reference.
Thanks, Seng Kiat.
The link did not work for me. However, the link under the other topic did work. So, it could be just me.
But in case others run into the same issue, here is Seng Kiat’s link that did work for me:
Tipitaka SearchHere are the results for “hadayavatthu”
This seems to be a great tool.
Much merits to Seng Kiat!A reference is probably in one of the three original commentaries included in the Tipitaka. I will add that when I have time to look for it.
But “hadaya” means “heart”. “Hadaya vatthu” is the seat of mind that is located (on the gandhabba or the mental body) overlapping the physical heart.
– There is communication between the brain and hadaya vatthu (and the physical heart too). As Lvalio’s post says, modern science is beginning to realize that connection, even though they have no idea about hadaya vatthu.Good question.
I used the wrong word “memory” implying “nama gotta.” It is retained in “temporary bhavanga” or a “temporary state of mind.” I have added #5 there to address that issue as follows. Let me know if it needs further explanation:
5. In the last two Tadārammana (T) cittā, the mind takes in the “flavor” or the “essence” of the sense object and then falls back to the bhavanga state at the termination of the pancadvāra citta vithi. Only the very strong (mahantārammana) citta vithi have them, and such strong impressions are “retained in one’s memory” for a period of time (i.e., one will not forget immediately.)
Until one loses that “temporary memory” it becomes one’s “temporary bhavanga.” For example, when one hears about the death of a parent, one will become sad and that “sad state of mind” will be there for days.
That is explained in detail in the post, “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavanga.”
Of course, ALL happenings are recorded as nāma gotta. Even unimportant events are recorded. The ability to recall events and what detail depends on one’s capabilities. Sometimes, such limited capabilities become possible due to “puñña iddhi” for even average humans. See, “Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM).”Lvalio wrote: “None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!”
That is not right. My post that you referenced does not say anything like that. If I have given that impression, I need to correct it. Please quote or refer to the bullet # where I wrote that or implied that.
To attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to see the fruitlessness of craving for worldly things. That is the anicca nature.
However, at that stage one has not yet lost the sanna (perception) that worldly cravings are not fruitful. Thus one cannot help “enjoying the worldly pleasures.”
That is sort of like a smoker who can see that smoking is bad for one’s health. That is like a Sotapanna.
– However, the smoker has not given up smoking yet. He still likes to smoke out of the old habit.That is not a perfect analogy in the following sense.
– A Sotapanna WILL lose the cravings for sensory pleasures within a limited time. Sotapanna’s understanding is NOT reversible.
– A smoker may go back to being a smoker unless he has the WILL POWER to gradually cut down smoking.
– Sotapanna’s PERMANENT understanding WILL INEVITABLY make him/her cut down on cravings for sensory pleasures gradually.P.S. I realized that I forgot to state the relevant point.
– A Sotapanna CANNOT get that understanding without learning the true nature of this world from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (Noble Person). Because it is a Dhamma that only a Buddha can discover. A normal human CANNOT figure that out by himself/herself, no matter how intelligent he/she is. That is the key point.Lvalio asked me to post the following comment. Apparently he had a problem in posting it. He thinks it is a problem at his end. Anyway, the following is the comment.
None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!
Just understand (understand) the true Dhamma (saddhamma) is sufficient.
And how is it necessary that the master, teacher be an Ariya and not only a good person, or a virtuous person, or etc.
But he who teaches the true Dhamma can only be an Ariya (at least one Sotapanna). And how could he teach the real Dhamma if he wasn’t?
Sometimes the person who read and understood the dhammā a little, starts to think about it and suddenly she sees the first noble truth
Only that, seeing the first noble truth is enough to accomplish Sotapanna, because Lord Buddha said that he who sees the 1st immediately sees the other three, because they are the logical consequences of the 1st
“Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination.”“But it is all necessary for maintaining life in a human body. That is how devas must look upon human bodies, much like we look upon pigs – careful to keep a distance, more so due to the much finer sensitivity of their senses.”
OK y not. I see that you had the right idea.
I think most of the points y not is making, are correct.
“…seeing that this box we are in is but a processing mechanism that converts liquids and solids to urine and faeces; the aromas and flavours we so relish turn into detestable waste.”
– That is true.But the next sentence, “Yet we cannot do otherwise, because we are impelled by thirst and hunger.” could be written in a different way.
– There is nothing wrong with eating and drinking (even tasty foods). In fact, we have to eat and drink to maintain our lives. And there is no point is forcibly eating foods that are not tasty.
– The only thing we need to do is to consume any food WITHOUT craving. That loss of craving comes naturally as one realizes the futility of enjoying those “pleasures”. Such cravings keep one bound to the kama loka.What he says next is true too: “Moreover, it is beset by disease, aches, and pains, ending in old age and death. Such is the existence we have to bear;”
– That should be an incentive to make effort without delay to attain Nibbana, at least the first stages of Nibbana.Yes, y not. You need to see the difference between “rupa” and rupakkhandha. Same for other four khandhas (with the exception of part of vinnanakkhandha; see below.)
See, “Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha.”
The vinnanakkhandha is a bit different. All other khandha just go to “memory records” or “nama gotta” as they go to the past.
– Kamma vinnana are (only associated with mano vinnana) have energies. They are basically kamma bija.
– The other five types of vinnana (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya) come to the mind momentarily and then recorded as past events. Same for “vipaka mano vinnana”.
– See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”Also, even in kamma vinnana. it is not just one. There can be numerous kamma vinnana (kamma bija) waiting to bring kamma vipaka (including many possible future existences.) Those kamma vinnana that can bring future existences are also called “patisandhi vinnana.”
– One needs to spend time, contemplating and grasping the ideas.Also note that we cannot recall all our memories, especially from past lives. Some children can just recall the immediate previous life.
– But by cultivating abhinna powers one can recall many past lives. The Buddha could recall as many as he wished.Dhammā can be analyzed at various levels and in various ways. The above quote is one way to express it.
Dhammā includes kamma bija, which are in vinnanakkhandha (our future hopes and expectations; of course, expectations do not materialize “as expected”). Those are energies. Kamma vipaka materialize due to them.
Dhammā includes memories, which do not have any energy. The other three khandhas are included in memories. They are also called nama gotta.
Finally, Nibbana (asankhata dhatu) is also grasped with the mind. “Mananca paticca dhammeca..”
“How can a dhamma even be below this level when a suddhashtaka is the base unit and cannot be divided?”
Dhammā are rupa that are not detectable with the five physical senses. They are rupa detected with the mana indriya. See, #9 of “What are Dhammā? – A Deeper Analysis.”
Also see, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”
Dhammā are, “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“. I need to find a reference for this particualr verse. If anyone has the reference, please post. I am providing a related reference below.
The following reference is in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. Āyatanavibhaṅga
“Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.The need for interaction with other humans is inherent in a human. It is like “kama guna” that I discussed in the post “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).”
The need for social interactions starts to diminish as one attains higher and higher magga phala starting as a Sotapanna Anugami. An Ariya (Noble Person) is one who starts seeing that things in this world (including the need for “social life”) have no value.
– At that point, one just tends to interact with similar minded people who are also on the Noble Path. Such interactions are different from social interactions like “get together and have a good time.”The need for attention is critically important in the early years, as a baby. That is when we develop our character with the influence of especially the parents.
It seems to me Wta, that you seem to have a good family, even though you did not get along with your Dad. Otherwise, you would not be coming to this website and the forum.
– My advice regarding your Dad is to try to be respectful to him and not do anything to aggravate him. It could just be that your personalities (which are part of “gati“; see below) are different. We MUST respect our parents no matter how bad they are. It is very hard to get a human body (you may not know much about gandhabba yet), and we have a human body thanks to our parents.
– Having conflicts with those who are close leads to an agitated state of mind. That is especially true regarding a parent.
– Staying away is better than having arguments. But it is best if you can slowly improve bonds with the parents and family. Take the initiative to be respectful to the parents, even if it is hard.My other suggestion is to continue learning Dhamma. Listen to those desana that Johnny and Christian suggested if you find them useful. If you have a temple closeby go there and participate in the activities there. Not all temples are the same. But that is much better than getting together with bad friends, having bad social interactions. Participating in the forum and discussing Dhamma concepts with like-minded people is another. When you are on the path, Dhamma will direct you in the right direction, and you will start connecting with like-minded people.
– Many people, especially young people, fall into the trap of trying to make friends just to overcome loneliness. Many start associating with bad people and develop bad habits.The joy of Dhamma is unlike another. One comprehending Dhamma will never be lonely.
You may want to read the following section when you have time (just pick topics of interest):
Moral Living and FundamentalsThese are some initial thoughts. If you have specific issues we can discuss.
P.S. I mentioned “gati” (pronounced “gathi”) above. Those are one’s character/habits; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)” and the posts referred to in there.
