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Good point, Siebe.
The confusion arises because of the wrong translation of taṇhā as “craving.”
In SN 56.11, the Pali verse is: “Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ
—kāma taṇhā, bhava taṇhā, vibhava taṇhā.As you point out, the translation you quote is “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering:
it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. SN56.11″As I have pointed out in recent posts, taṇhā is “getting attached” to something. One could get attached via anger too. One gets attached via greed (craving) or anger because of the ignorance of the Noble Truths. The first stage of understanding those truths is to get rid of sakkāya ditthi.
P.S. Yes. I am glad to see that Johnny has the right idea. I will write more about it in the next post.
OK, Christian.
The “very advanced testimonial” that you posted is interesting. I have seen many similar accounts. But the problem is, those experiences do not say anything about Nibbana. They are jhanic experiences.
Now if they are Ariya jhanas, then it has to do with Nibbana.
– It is very easy to determine (for oneself) whether they are Ariya jhanas. If one does not generate ANY kama raga (say even while watching an X-rated movie), then those are likely to be Ariya jhana.Even the first Ariya jhana REQUIRES ELIMINATION (not just suppression) of kama raga.
If you can post a video of someone saying that they have such jhanic experiences AND also do not have have any kama raga left, please do so. (But again, there are people who have declared themselves to be Arahants. So, I am not sure whether we can take anyone’s word. This is why declaring these accomplishments do not serve benefits to others.)
– Other than Ariya jhana, it is not a big deal to get into a jhana, even the arupa jhana (for those who had cultivated jhana in recent previous lives).
– However, I am not saying that getting to jhana is bad. I am just saying that getting to jhana is more like a habit from previous lives. It is easy for those who had cultivated jhanas in recent previous lives, to get into jhana.
– It is like someone who learned to ride a bike as a child. Even if that child did not get to ride a bike for many years, he could easily remember how to ride it later on as an adult. But it would be hard for an adult to learn to ride a bike if he had never ridden one.This is why I believe putting emphasis on jhanas is a bad idea. There could be people who even get to magga phala but cannot cultivate jhana. They could be discouraged because they may be under the impression that it is essential to cultivate jhana to attain magga phala.
We need to remember that Devadatta attained all those jhanas, and was also able to perform “miracles”, like appearing on the lap of Prince Ajasattu in the form of a baby (or a snake?.) But he ended up in the apayas.
I have explained this in many posts. The bottom line is that jhanas and magga phala are two different things. We should not confuse jhanic experiences having anything to do with magga phala.
– Furthermore, the Buddha himself practiced the highest jhana soon after he gave up the “householder life.” It took him six years to get to the Buddhahood.Good question.
Yes. Tanha (getting attached to an arammanna) happens instantaneously. That is what is discussed in the first half of the Chacakka Sutta.
One starts thinking about that arammana only after that in the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in Paticca Samuppada.
– Once one is attached, one starts thinking about it and those are vaci sankhara. The one may do bodily actions with kaya sankhara too. That is “avijja paccaya sankhara”, which then leads to ALL the remaining steps in Paticca Samuppada. That ends up in “jati paccaya jara, marana, etc..” or the “whole mass of suffering”.
– Therefore, “tanha paccaya upadana” is really the INITIATION of the Paticca Samuppada process.I will discuss that in detail in the next post.
Christian wrote: “I can not explain how Nibbana can be just Nibbana without consciousness etc. but this is how it is.”
What needs to be explained is how to get to Nibbana.
By the way, one cannot experience ultimate Nibbana (the status after Parinibbana) without getting to Nirodha Samapatti. Are you saying that you can get to Nirodha Samapatti?
Nibbana itself is very easy to DEFINE.
It is in many many suttas: “rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo— idaṃ vuccati nibbānan”ti.
– Removing greed, anger, and ignorance (about the Four Noble Truths) will get one to Nibbana.In order to get there, one needs to realize that there no real “experiencer.”
1. Things happen due to past causes. Life is a series of events. One has control over SOME kamma vipaka, by paying attention and by avoiding conditions for them to appear. But some kamma vipaka cannot be avoided (strong ones) UNTIL one attains Parinibbana.
– When one has sakkāya diṭṭhi, one keeps accumulating causes (hetu or kamma bija) for future existences. Under highly-tempting conditions, one may even do apāyagāmi deeds. That possibility WILL BE there UNTIL one gets rid of sakkāya diṭṭhi.P.S. When quoting others, please say who said what.
P.P.S. To add to #1 above:
2. Taking control over those CONDITIONS is the key to stop making NEW CAUSES for future suffering. That is what is discussed in the Paticca Samuppada.
– Once the main result has arisen (like our present human body), it HAS TO run its course.
– But we can STOP such future existence from arising by comprehending Paticca Samuppada.
– This is why Paticca Samuppada is sometimes translated as “Conditional Arising” or “Dependent Origination.” Results can be STOPPED from appearing by either removing causes OR conditions. Thus even if kamma bija are there, they can be PREVENTED from “germinating” by removing the conditions for them to appear. For future existences, that is done by stopping the “tanha paccaya upadana” step.
– That cannot be done by sheer will-power. It comes through Samma Diṭṭhi, the correct world view (anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.)
– That is what we will be discussing in the upcoming posts.Cristian wrote: “f you ask me, this forum topic has come to appear more like a Mahāyāna inquiry into emptiness, nothingness, sunnyata: no experiencer? The same old questions about Nibbana come up. Who is it, apart from the pancakkhandhas, that experiences? The manomayakaya shorn of all that is positive and negative, with only what is neutral remaining”
Are you quoting someone else or are you saying that?
Yes. That is correct, Siebe.
Regarding the first part, the following explanation by Ven. Nagasena (to King Milinda) gives the idea too.
“The chariot simile” from Sutta Central.I only recently found that Sutta Central has the full English translation of “Milinda Panha”
– King Milinda was a Greek King who ruled part of India about 200 years after the Buddha. He was a Buddhist. He had frequent conversations with an Arahant, Ven. Nagasena. This Milinda Panha (Questions of Milinda) captures those questions by Milinda and answers by Ven. Nagasena.Of course, some Pali words are translated incorrectly. But one can get a good idea.
I have done some significant revisions to the post in question: “An Apparent “Self” Is Involved in Kamma Generation.”
Those interested should re-read the revised post.
One major change was to add #5 under a new heading, as follows:
Attā Translated as “Self” Is Not Correct
5. The Pāli word “attā” does not really mean “self” even though I used that translation above. That translation is quite common these days. We will go with that until we finish discussing Paticca Samuppāda. If I try to discuss the real meaning of attā right now, that could lead to confusion.
That is in fact why the Buddha refused to answer Vaccagotta’s question about whether or not there is an “attā.” See, “Ānanda Sutta (SN 44.10).”
Vacchagotta comes to the Buddha asked “kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthattā” ti?” OR “Master Gotama, is it correct to say that there is an “attā”?”.
Note that “atthattā” is “atthi attā” where “atthi” means “exists.” Vaccagotta meant in this case “attā” to be “self.” Thus, Vacchagotta meant: “Is it correct to say that a “self” exists?”
The Buddha remained silent, and Vacchagotta asked the question again in the negative form. The second time, he asked: “Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, natthattā” ti?” or, “Master Gotama, is it not correct to say that there is a “self”?”.
– Seeing that the Buddha is refusing to answer his question, Vacchagotta got up and left.Note that “natthattā” is made up of three words: “naatthi attā,” which negates “atthattā.”Just as these days, many people were confused about the Pali word “attā” and the Sanskrit word “ātma.” The latter meaning is closer to a “soul.”
I will discuss this sutta when I will come back to discuss “attā” in detail, after discussing Paticca Samuppāda.
Those two posts that I referred to above are very important. I hope everyone will take the time to read them carefully.
The first post explains that tanha is not craving: “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance.”
It is a common mistake to translate “tanhā” as “craving.” The translation that Johnny referred to translates tanhā as craving.
– Tanhā means “getting attached to” sensory input and that happens within a FRACTION OF A SECOND.
– That is a key message of the Chachakka Sutta that we have been discussing recently: “Worldview of the Buddha.”I have revised the second post mentioned above:
“Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna”These are important concepts to understand. But it requires spending time to think, not merely to read.
P.S. The key point is that “tanhā” happens instantly, the moment you see, hear,..something. Then one thinks, speaks, and takes actions based on “craving” for it. That second step happens over time. That is the “upādāna” step.
Johnny wrote: “It appears tenable that kamma is a natural byproduct of craving. I think that’s why the second noble truth is tanhā and never upādāna. Because by the time one performs kamma/sankhara/upādāna, it’s already too late.”
Tanha is not craving: Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance
Tanha is removed via stopping upadana by getting rid of avijja:
Difference Between Tanhā and UpādānaThese concepts require a lot of thinking. Please feel free to ask questions.
What Lang wrote is correct.
However, what needs to be really done is to realize the following:
1. To understand WHY there is no “self” or a “soul” involved in the initial sensory event.
2. That the response to those initial sensory events with the idea of a “self” leads to suffering in the long-term.
– We have not yet discussed how that suffering arises via Paticca Samuppada. (but some may be able to make that connection on their own).
– In any case, the next few posts will make that connection clear.Stated in another way, there will be suffering as long there one has the view that it is WORTHWHILE to take good sensory inputs as “mine” and TRY TO ENJOY THEM, especially by doing immoral deeds. An extreme case is where one kills or steals in order to get money and buy luxury items and live a “good life.”
– Same works the other way too. We tend to dislike other sensory events and MAY TRY to do IMMORAL THINGS in order to stop those. For example, as an extreme case, some people try to hurt or even kill their enemies.Tobias asked: “Why is anattā “not-self”?.”
I said it is the WRONG APPROACH to say that there is “no-self” OR there is a “self”.
– Please read the post carefully. I emphasized that point at the very end.
– We need to realize that suffering arises because of the idea of a “self.” One does immoral things BECAUSE of that.
– In a strict sense, it is correct to say that anattā implies “no-self.” But we cannot START there BECAUSE just saying that will not help. One will be just fooling “oneself.” We are under the perception of a “self.” We need to SEE the bad consequences of that perception by SEEING the dangers of that view.Basically one is “anattā” (with no refuge) AS LONG AS one has the wrong view of sakkaya ditthi.
– One starts becoming an “attā” (one with refuge) when one starts realizing the true nature (that there is no “experiencer.” Then one will be free of the apayas.
– However, the perception of a “self” goes away only at the Arahant stage, and at that time one will have the full refuge of NO SUFFERING AT ALL (after the Parinibbana.)I am glad that both of you thought about it. It is not possible to write all this in a post. When we go through the next few posts, this will hopefully become clear.
– This is why the Buddha said, “my Dhamma is difficult to understand.” That Dhamma cannot be UNDERSTOOD by repeating verses to oneself. One needs to “see-through” the true nature.
– The procedure of repeating verses (which most people call meditation) becomes useful after “SEEING” the true nature. Then, in order to remove the wrong perception and get to higher magga phala, such “formal meditations with repeating verses” will be more effective.
– That is why “bhavanaya pahatabba” comes at the end in the Sabbasava Sutta. First one needs to get to “dassanena pahatabba” or “removal by vision” or Samma Ditthi.
– Of course, one who has removed sakkaya ditthi needs to do those formal meditations. That will help remove the “wrong perceptions” (sanna vipallasa).An analogy is a smoker. A smoker first needs to “SEE” the bad consequences of smoking. But unless one keeps recalling that frequently, it may be hard to break the “old habit” completely (by removing the sanna).
– Of course, there is a difference at the Sotapanna stage. Even if one may be tempted to do “some immoral things” one WILL NEVER BE CAPABLE of doing apayagami deeds after removing sakkaya ditthi.P.S. Here is what I stated at the very end of the post:
17. In other words, the wrong views about a “self” (sakkāya diṭṭhi) go away at the Sōtapanna stage. But the perception of a “self” (asmi māna) goes away in stages and disappear only at the Arahant stage.
– Only an Arahant has no saññā vipallāsa and asmi māna.
– That is also why we CANNOT say that “there is no-self.” Until the attainment of Arahanthood, there is a perception of a “self.”
– It is a wrong approach to analyze sensory experiences based on a “self” or “no-self.” Instead, we can explain everything in terms of causes and effects or Paticca Samuppāda. We will discuss this in the future.Siebe wrote: “I do not argue the use of weakening defilements, and letting them go while they arise, but it seems that this cannot lead to their uprooting. On that point 1 would like some clarificaton. It seems that only te magga citta that experiences Nibbana can uproot defilements.”
You have already clarified.
You wrote, ” I do not argue the use of weakening defilements, and letting them go while they arise.”
It seems you agree that the weakening of defilements is NECESSARY in order to get rid of anusaya. That is a NECESSARY condition.
Once the defilements start fading, at some point, the “point of no return” is reached. That is the magga phala moment.
– One CANNOT get to that point without going through the “mind purification” process, which is just getting rid of the wrong view of sakkaya ditthi (for the Sotapanna stage).Are you saying otherwise? Please focus on the key point.
Siebe wrote: “It is said by some that defilements and also anusaya can only be eradicated by the magga-citta, for example this is said by Nina van Gorkom who writes a lot about Abhidhamma.”
The way that is written gives a wrong impression.
– It is true that anusaya is removed in stages at each stage of magga phala. But that does not happen automatically. It requires learning and practicing dhamma.
– Once one starts understanding the true nature, that understanding grows with time (as a Sotapanna Anugami). Then the wrong view of sakkaya ditthi is removed at the moment of attaining the Sotapanna magga/phala citta.
– Removing the wrong perceptions (saññā) requires more learning and practice and that is removed only at the Arahant stage.Lang asked: “For paṭighānusaya, if we flip the above around and say something like this, will it be true:
“When one experiences a dukha vēdāna, if one is irritated with it, pushes it away, and thinks and speaks harshly of it, tries to get away from it, then the underlying tendency for paṭighā (paṭighānusaya) gets stronger…”That is right and that parallels the statement in the post about rāgānusaya.
However, actually DOING THAT is the hard part. In some meditation retreats, they say, “feeling is just feeling. Just ignore it.” Even if one may be able to do that during the retreat, it will be HARD to do in real situations.
The key is to truly understand that there is no “experiencer.” That will really help to suppress the “mind-made” vedana or samphassa-jā-vēdanā.
– In #8 of the post I said, “To remove that strong diṭṭhi, we need to see the “true nature,” i.e., need to cultivate “yathābhuta ñāna.” I just added the following to that: “A big part of that is realizing that there is no “experiencer,” as we have discussed in detail using the movie analogy. See, “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy.”The key here is to UNDERSTAND why getting absorbed in either sukha or dukkha vedana is harmful. The mind needs to “SEE” that there is no actual “experiencer.”
– Either sukha or dukkha vedana (the real ones) come only through the physical body.
– All others are mind-made as we discussed.Even the “real” dukkha vedana are kamma vipaka. They WILL keep coming AS LONG AS we have physical bodies (i.e., we are in kama loka). And they are much worse in the four lower realms in kama loka (i.e., apayas).
– Therefore, the goal is to stop rebirth first in the apayas.The bottom line is that it is essential to stop generating “mind-made vedana” based on even real vedana generated with the physical body.
– But unless one really understands that there is no “experiencer” involved, it is not possible to stop births even in the apayas.
– That requires BOTH learning the true nature AND practice. But the understanding must be there first.
– We will discuss more in upcoming posts. But it is necessary to understand the “movie analogy” mentioned above.
