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Tobias’s questions:
“but the PS is akusala (defilements are not removed but added).”
There is a kusala-mula PS that removes defilements. That is the way to Nibbana:”Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada”
“Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha. Is moha cetasika involved when someone does punna deeds?. Is moha cetasika involved when someone does punna deeds?”
Yes. Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha.
When one does punna kamma, it is the avijja cetasika that is involved. However, if one has comprehended Tilakkhana FULLY (i.e., if one is an Arahant), it becomes a punna kiriya, without kammic consequences.
Difference between moha and avijja discussed at: “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā“.
Siebe’s comments:
“In my opinion, there cannot be a refuge for a living being if Nibbana is one thing and ‘a living being’ would be something completely different.”
One’s opinion does not matter. If you have evidence from the Tipitaka, please present the evidence.
“The Buddha does not teach we are these fleeting processes. It is the other way around.”
There are so many suttas say they are fleeting processes. We cannot make up what we like.
Please do not make your opinions to be facts. This is a forum on Buddha Dhamma, not a forum on philosophy.
Siebe wrote: “You ask: Can you explain what else is there in a human being or any other living being?
It is the unconditioned element, Nibbana. Nibbana is always present,…”There are four ultimate realities (paramatthathō):
Thoughts (citta)
Thought qualities or mental factors (cētasika)
Matter (rūpa)
NibbānaThe first three belong to “this world”. Five aggregates encompass those.
Nibbana does not belong belong to “this world”.Therefore, Nibbana cannot be a part of any living being. Even an Arahant gets to “full Nibbana” or Parinibbana only after the death of the physical body.
Christian wrote: “Thank you Lal for an explanation but then I have a question on the basis of that – how one judge then a schism in the Sangha or if one is making such schism when leads to Apayas?”
If one commits Sangha Bheda (schism in the Sangha), Nature will take care of it. Since it is an anantariya kamma, it will bring vipaka at the end of the current life and be instantly born in an apaya.
– No one else need to make a judgement.This is very clear from the account of Devadatta. The Buddha did not take any action against him. Devadatta even remained a bhikkhu until his death.
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Siebe wrote: “I do not really understand this Lal. If a human being, if we, are nothing more than an ever changing composition of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana (which i do not belief)..”
Can you explain what else is there in a human being or any other living being?
All living beings, except beings in the asañña realm (who have only the rupa aggregate), have those five “kāya” or aggregates, and nothing else.
It is easy to see this point by just looking at the rupa aggregate. When a human is reborn a brahma, that brahma will have a very fine body, very different from the human body. If reborn as an animal, it will be the body of that animal. So, there is nothing to be proud about one’s own physical body, and it will not last long either (100 years is negligible in the sansaric time scale).
– (Of course, one’s own body is only a tiny part of the rupa aggregate, it is called ajjhatta kāya).This is the key to understand what is meant by Sakkāya Ditthi.
Siebe:
What I explained is what is in SN 22.1:
“4. Sakkaya comes from “sath” + “kaya”, where “sath” means “good” and “kaya” means “aggregates”. So, sakkaya ditthi is the wrong perception that the five aggregates of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana are good and beneficial”.Sakkaya ditthi is the attachment to the five aggregates based on the conviction that those rupa, vedana, etc are good for oneself. While that may be true in the short run, it is not true in the rebirth process where one could be born an animal or worse.
– This is why it is not possible to grasp Buddha Dhamma without taking a long-term view. If one does not believe in the rebirth process (and that one COULD be born an animal or worse), it is impossible to grasp Tilakkhana and get rid of Sakkaya Ditthi.
– When one loses Sakkaya Ditthi, one’s mind becomes free of a large fraction of defiled thoughts. That is the first stage of “cooling down”.However, as I said elsewhere, different people comprehend things differently at one’s own level of understanding.
Christian wrote: “One can teach Dhamma or spread Dhamma without being Sotapanna but there is high risk involved that person will be lacking too much understanding and experience to show people the way of practice.”
Here are some things to think about:
1. If only people with magga phala were teaching Dhamma, Buddha Sasana would have long been disappeared.
– Today, only a tiny fraction of even the bhikkhus have magga phala. Even less had been there only 50 years ago and likely for many hundreds of years up to now. However, Buddha Sasana has been maintained by mainly the bhikkhus who faithfully transmitted the Pali Tipitaka over 2500 years: “Preservation of the Buddha Dhamma“.2. There have always been people (including bhikkhus) who had not comprehended Dhamma. Even at the time of the Buddha this was the case. Devadatta was a prime example.
– Even when Devadatta tried to kill the Buddha, the Buddha did not expel Devadatta from the order of the bhikkhus. Devadatta remained a bhikkhu until death.
– There are many other examples, where bhikkhus were teaching the “wrong Dhamma”. There was Sati bhikkhu who could not understand what is meant by viññāna in the Maha Tanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38). Another was Yamaka bhikkhu in “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85). Once the Buddha could not stop two fractions of bhikkhus who were arguing and decided to leave them and go to Palileyya forest.
-In none of these cases, the Buddha never asked any of those bhikkhus to give up the robes or to stop engaging in their activities, which included delivering discourses. But of course, he explained to them the correct Dhamma.3. In that latter case, Visaka came to the Buddha and asked how to treat those bhikkhus who were “misbehaving and teaching the wrong Dhamma”. Buddha said that people should listen to all and need to figure out who is teaching the correct Dhamma.
4. There have been long stretches where there have been only a few with magga phala. But Buddha Sasana was maintained. Mainly because the faithful propagation of the Pali Tipitaka.
Regardless of how one explains Dhamma, the text in the Tipitaka remains the same. That is the most important factor.5. Dhamma that may have veen hidden for long times can be revived by a few or even one person who is a “jati Sotapanna” (like Waharaka Thero).
– Therefore, the most critical is to preserve the Pali Tipitaka. Even if wrong Dhamma is delivered in many cases, there is built-in safety in the Pali Tipitaka. Without that continuity through long periods, where the Dhamma was explained incorrectly, Buddha Sasana would not have persevered.Of course, it is a good thing that there are more bhikkhus and lay people who are teaching correct Dhamma these days.
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Tien wrote: “Out of compassion for them that I revealed the wisdom of the Buddha. But it was really a mistake that I try to introduce Dhamma to people without first attained to the Dhamma myself.”
One does not need to attain the Arahantship or even the Sotapanna stage, before one can try to explain Dhamma to others (to the extent that one comprehends it). That is what most of us are doing.
But my position is that I try to avoid “debating” with those who try to make arguments against Buddha Dhamma just for the sake of debating. I will try to explain to the best of my ability and if they do not seem to be able to grasp the key ideas, I just stop responding.
– The Buddha said that trying to teach Dhamma to those who are obviously resisting, is like begging a woman after she has already said “no”.
– Buddha Dhamma is precious and does not need to be “forced upon”. Each person can make his/her own decisions based on the facts presented.Different people have different capabilities, ditthis, etc. We all have had taken such stubborn positions in the past and that is why we are also still in the rebirth process and are still subject to suffering.
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The 20 factors on the wholesome side are the removal of the 10 types of miccha ditthi and getting to the 10 factors in the Noble Path: Sammā Ditthi, Sammā Sankappa, Sammā Vācā, Sammā Kammanta, Sammā Ājiva, Sammā Vāyāma, Sammā Sati, Sammā Samādhi, Sammā Ñāna, and Sammā Vimutti.
– Note here that one needs to complete two more factors (Sammā Ñāna, and Sammā Vimutti) beyond the eightfold path factors to become an Arahant.When one has one or more miccha ditthi, one is on the wrong path. Those are the first 10 factors on the unwholesome side.
When one has many of those miccha ditthi, one will be going down the wrong path, and will end up with unwholesome 10 factors that are opposite of the 10 factors for an Arahant: micchā Ditthi, micchā Sankappa, micchā Vācā, micchā Kammanta, micchā Ājiva, micchā Vāyāma, micchā Sati, micchā Samādhi, micchā Ñāna, and micchā Vimutti.So, those are 20 factors to the unwholesome side.
Even though those last 10 factors are not explicitly stated in the Maha Cattarisaka sutta, they are implicated there. Those are explicitly stated in several suttas including “Sādhu Sutta (AN 10.134)” and “Micchatta Sutta (an 10.103)“.
I may need to re-write the post on Maha Cattarisaka sutta to make this more clear.
I realized that I had not answered this part of Siebe’s question: “.. what does ending of sakkaya ditthi personally mean for you in daily life?”
When one gets rid of sakkaya ditthi, one understand deep inside that there is nothing in this world that is worth killing, stealing, lying, etc, i.e., harming other living beings, especially humans.
– Such actions (dasa akusala) are going to bring much more harm than any temporary sense gratification.The key is that one will AUTOMATICALLY respond to day-to-day situations with that mindset WITHOUT having to think about it. That saññā will be permanently ingrained to one’s mind (and that will hold through future lives); see, “Saññā – What It Really Means“.
– That change of mindset comes about by contemplating on the basic key factors that I discussed in my previous post above.Here are a few key points to think about.
1. Sakkaya ditthi is one of three samyojana that need to broken to attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana.
2. Samyojana are “bonds” that binds one to the rebirth process (also called sansara or samsara).
When all ten samyojana are broken, one will be free of all attachments (bonds) to the rebirth process, and will never be born anywhere in the 31 realms of this world, none of which is suffering-free.
– There is absolutely no suffering in Parinibbana (after the death of an Arahant).3. Sakkaya ditthi is really about the first comprehension of the sufferings and the dangers in the rebirth process. We tend to think in terms of human births, and tend to disregard other realms.
– But most humans are reborn in the four lower realms including the animal realm. That is the danger to be understood in order to break sakkaya ditthi, a bond to the rebirth process.4. Sakkaya comes from “sath” + “kaya”, where “sath” means “good.” Now, “kaya” can mean two things: one’s physical body or one’s actions.
Sakkāya ditthi encompasses mainly two views: (i) “I am my body,” and I need to keep it beautiful above all. (ii) I can achieve happiness by diligently pursuing (good) things in this world.
– More details at, “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?”So, these are the key points that one needs to contemplate on, if one wants to overcome sakkaya ditthi and to attain the Sotapanna stage.
October 6, 2019: Ihave replaced original #4 and #5 with just #4 above.
After looking into this, I realized that answer to Siebe’s question is not to be found in a sutta.
He asked: “Does anyone know a sutta reference that shows the 5 heinous crimes lead directly to birth in hell after death?’
and,
“I am more specifically searching for a sutta which clearly states that those listed heinous crimes after death immediately lead to rebirth in hell.”Those five types of strong kamma are called ānatariya kamma (that invariably bring vipāka at the death the current physical body, i.e., will not be carried to future lives).
The five five types of ānatariya kamma are defined in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka, not in the Sutta Piṭaka. They are listed under Pañcakamātikā as: “Tattha katamāni pañca kammāni ānantarikāni? Mātā jīvitā voropitā hoti, pitā jīvitā voropito hoti, arahanto jīvitā voropito hoti, duṭṭhena cittena tathāgatassa lohitaṃ uppāditaṃ hoti, saṃgho bhinno hoti—imāni pañca kammāni ānantarikāni. (9)”.
See, “Khuddakavatthu Vibhaṅga“.
I will write a post in the future on this, but the word “anantariya” comes from “na” + “an” + “antara”, or “without delay”.
While other kamma vipaka may be realized in future lives, vipaka of anantara kamma will occur in this life of more commonly at the end of this life.There are “good anantariya kamma” too. For example, if one cultivates jhana, one will be born in a brahma realm at the death of the current physical body.
Here is the complete sutta that Christian quoted:
“Parikuppa Sutta (AN 5.129)“: “Pañcime, bhikkhave, āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā. Katame pañca? Mātā jīvitā voropitā hoti, pitā jīvitā voropito hoti, arahaṃ jīvitā voropito hoti, tathāgatassa duṭṭhena cittena lohitaṃ uppāditaṃ hoti, saṃgho bhinno hoti. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca āpāyikā nerayikā parikuppā atekicchā”ti.”I think the translation of the first sentence should be: “There are these five actions that maximally disturbs the mind via attachment to eight things and will lead to birth in an apāya or niraya”.
– But it does not specifically say that one would be born in the apayas immediately following the death of the current physical body.The key words are parikuppā (completely disturbed mind) and atekicchā (strong attachment to eight asaddhamma or “bad things”).
– It is not possible to do such an action without a fully perturbed mind (parikuppā).
– Atekicchā is explained in the “Devadattavipatti Sutta, AN 8.7“.P.S. I revised the above comment regarding the word atekicchā after doing some more research; see my comment below.
Per original request by firewns, just published a post:
“Do Buddhists Pray and Engage in Idol Worshipping?“These four categories of persons are discussed in the posts: “Sutta – Introduction” and “Sutta Learning Sequence for the Present Day“.
However, the sutta that you quoted was not referenced and I just revised the two posts to add the reference.
Thanks, Christian!
