Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra

Welcome! Forums Questions About Puredhamma Posts Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra

Tagged: ,

Viewing 9 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #23087
      Tobias G
      Participant

      This rewritten post makes a point clear. In the past I was thinking about this again and again and I also discussed it somewhere here in the forum. Even punna abhisankhara are done with the akusala-mula PS, because avijja is there for a worldling. Thank you,Lal!

      One question came up: punna abhisankhara are good deeds, but the PS is akusala (defilements are not removed but added). Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha. Is moha cetasika involved when someone does punna deeds?

    • #23100
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias’s questions:

      “but the PS is akusala (defilements are not removed but added).”

      There is a kusala-mula PS that removes defilements. That is the way to Nibbana:”Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada

      “Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha. Is moha cetasika involved when someone does punna deeds?. Is moha cetasika involved when someone does punna deeds?”

      Yes. Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha.

      When one does punna kamma, it is the avijja cetasika that is involved. However, if one has comprehended Tilakkhana FULLY (i.e., if one is an Arahant), it becomes a punna kiriya, without kammic consequences.

      Difference between moha and avijja discussed at: “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā“.

    • #23253
      Tobias G
      Participant

      #6 says:
      “…If we then start moving body parts to respond, then those are initiated by kāya kammā…”

      It should be “…initiated by kaya sankhara”, right?

      #7 says:
      “7. Thus it is important to note that kāya sankhāra are also thoughts. They are responsible for body movements, i.e., kāya kammā….”

      Do those kaya sankhara trigger kaya vinnati rupa?

      Mano sankhara alone are not abhisankhara, right? Mano sankhara can lead to abhisankhara via “more thinking” in form of vaci and kaya sankhara. Thus the kamma is not strong or complete with only mano sankhara. Mano sankhara are the initial reaction (sanna, vedana) on a sense input (also to a kamma nimitta in case of cuti-patisandhi). “More thinking” means more cetasika are involved, like dosa, moha, lobha …

    • #23255
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. You are correct in all. Thanks!

      “Do those kaya sankhara trigger kaya vinnati rupa?” Yes.

      I have revised the post in incorporate those: “Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra“.

      “Mano sankhara alone are not abhisankhara, right? Mano sankhara can lead to abhisankhara via “more thinking” in form of vaci and kaya sankhara. Thus the kamma is not strong or complete with only mano sankhara. Mano sankhara are the initial reaction (sanna, vedana) on a sense input (also to a kamma nimitta in case of cuti-patisandhi). “More thinking” means more cetasika are involved, like dosa, moha, lobha …”

      Yes. Correct! Mano sankhara cannot lead to rebirths. But both vaci and kaya (abhi)sankhara can.

    • #23256
      Tobias G
      Participant

      A question comes up regarding this verse: “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro

      You say that all these are abhisankhara. If so, then cittasankhara = manosankhara = abhisankhara?

    • #23257
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Good point.

      However, all sankhara are anicca: “Sabbe sankhāra aniccā“.

      Even though citta sankhara (same as mano sankhara) cannot lead to rebirth, they are still anicca. Even an Arahant would generate all three types of sankhara to live in this world until the death of the physical body. All sankhara are stopped only at Parinibbana.
      – Such sankhara without kammic energy are called kiriya (just actions) too.

    • #25713
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Hi Lal,
      on May 14 you wrote:
      “Yes. Moha is a cetasika. Avijja is not moha, but a reduced form of moha.

      When one does punna kamma, it is the avijja cetasika that is involved (unless one has comprehended Tilakkhana, in which case it becomes a punna kiriya, without kammic consequences).”

      Avijja is not a cetasika, moha is. Anyway, how can one do punna kamma with avijja, when this good act involves sobhana cetasika? Are the citta vithi mixed: sobhana/asobhana citta vithi?

    • #25715
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hi Tobias,

      What I had written (the latter part of what you quoted) was not fully correct. I just revised that as follows:
      When one does punna kamma, it is the avijja cetasika that is involved. However, if one has comprehended Tilakkhana FULLY (i.e., if one is an Arahant), it becomes a punna kiriya, without kammic consequences.

      Now, to the question that you raised:
      “Avijja is not a cetasika, moha is. Anyway, how can one do punna kamma with avijja, when this good act involves sobhana cetasika? Are the citta vithi mixed: sobhana/asobhana citta vithi?”

      Yes. This is a key point that is a bit hard to grasp.
      – As long as one does not FULLY understand the Four Noble Truths (or Tilakkhana), one is unable to FULLY REALIZE the unfruitful-ness AND danger in remaining in the rebirth process. So, any “good deed” (punna kamma) that one does, has at least a subtle expectation for a “good return”.

      – That “expectation for a good return” reduces as one advance to higher stages of magga phala.
      – For example, an Anagami does not have any expectations associated with kama loka. But still wants to live and still likes to hear/discuss Dhamma, for example.
      – All future expectations for anything in this world go away only at the Arahant stage. Then any “good deed” WILL NOT have any kammic consequences. It just becomes a “good action” or punna kiriya.

      This is explained in the “Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikāya 57) – Kammakkhaya
      – See #12 specifically.

      I will get to this point slowly in the new series, “Origin of Life
      – That series is a systematic way to look at the whole process.
      – In particular, the sub-section: “Worldview of the Buddha

      Anyway, please feel to ask questions. This is a key issue.

    • #25716
      sybe07
      Spectator

      Maybe it can be put this way too?

      In most deeds, also good ones, there is an ego-centric motive or perspective.
      For example, one likes to work in a hospital or with disabled persons because that also gives a good feeling. Ofcourse this is not bad, but is it really pure? What, if this good feeling did not arise or gradually weakens? Does one change jobs?

      Any ego-centric view or attitude must be deluded/corrupted because of asmi mana.

      If one does something good for the purpose of being born in heavens, that is surely ego-centric.

      It is very obvious to me that this kind of strategic behaviour, is not really pure.
      A pure mind will feel it is a corruption to think, speak, act and life so strategic and self-centered.

      Therefor i also do not belief that one will ever escape samsara if one becomes a more and more strategic person. What do you think?

    • #25717
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Siebe wrote: “In most deeds, also good ones, there is an ego-centric motive or perspective.”

      Yes. That is the avijja anusaya remaining in ANY person below the Arahant stage.

      “Any ego-centric view or attitude must be deluded/corrupted because of asmi mana.”

      Yes. That is what is meant by the above. Only an Arahant does not have asmi mana.

      “Therefor i also do not belief that one will ever escape samsara if one becomes a more and more strategic person. What do you think?”

      I am not sure what you mean by that, Siebe.
      Who is a “strategic person”?

Viewing 9 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.