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Sybe wrote: “anicca – in the end, we can maintain nothing the way we like – is not difficult to see or understand but it is very difficult to live with, to really accept, to have peace in the heart with it.”
That is an important point.
– It is easy to “express in words” what is anicca.
– However, UNDERSTANDING is different.
– If one really understood what is meant by anicca, one would “drop everything and work towards stopping the rebirth process.”One analogy that I can give pertains to smokers or drug addicts.
– They have read enough things about how bad those activities are.
– But they have not COMPREHENDED the consequences of such activities.I had a friend who smoked and he and I had many discussions where I tried to persuade him to stop smoking. He was well-educated and knew all about the dangers of smoking. But he thought somehow he would be able to bypass such bad consequences.
– Later on, he had several surgeries to remove parts of his lungs. In the end, most of his lungs were gone and he was on oxygen. Then he died a miserable death.Another example from the Tipitaka is where Ven. Ananda told the Buddha that Paticca Samuppada was easy to understand. But the Buddha admonished that Ven. Ananda was nowhere close to such an understanding. Of course, later on Ven Ananda attained the Arahanthood after comprehending it better.
By the way, Paticca Samuppada and Tilakkhana are inter-related.
– The Buddha said that “one who understands Paticca Samuppada understands Buddha Dhamma.”
– Therefore, it is a good idea to make sure one understands Paticca Samuppada.
– In essence, Paticca Samuppada explains how one makes one’s own future rebirths in different realms.
– This is why I am doing a systematic series of posts on that: “Paticca Samuppāda – Not ‘Self’ or ‘No-Self’“Upekkha: Yes to both questions.
This is why some people are able to make progress faster than others. They have “cultivated the path” more in previous lives.
However, there is an important point to remember, and that is a key difference between a “soul” in some religions and an “ever-changing self” in Buddha Dhamma.
Consider the case of a person who makes some progress on the path in a given life.
– Since he/she has made progress (even if not attained a magga phala), it is likely that he/she will be born into a family with moral values in the next life. Then that progress will continue.
– However, if one is unfortunate (due to some specific kamma) to be born into a “bad family” in the next life, that environment can stop and even reverse some of the progress made in the previous life.Of course, if one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugami, then one’s progress WILL NOT be reversed.
That is why we need to make our best effort in this life. Furthermore, it is essential to stay away from bad friends, associates and to associate with “moral people.”
– There is no “unchanging self.”
– One can be moral one day and become immoral due to bad associations at any time.Yes. It is not easy to see “anicca Nature.” It takes a real effort, necessary background knowledge, moral conduct, and many other factors.
– Again, I am not talking about Sybe or anyone else in particular. This is a general statement that I have made in many posts.This is why the Buddha had doubts about how many people can understand his Dhamma “that has never been known to the world.”
Whether one may grasp the Tilakkhana in this life or not, following even the mundane eightfold path will not go to waste. It is those who have cultivated the mundane path (where the 10 types of miccha ditthi are removed) that are able to comprehend Tilakkhana in this life and start on the Noble Eightfold Path. See, “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?“
I think the issue could be the following. I do not know anyone’s mind, so I cannot say Sybe’s case falls under this category.
One must follow the Path in a systematic way. There are two Eightfold paths.
– One must have completed the first mundane path and removed the ten types of miccha ditthi before starting on the Noble Eightfold Path. That means one should have the “right mindset” to be able to comprehend anicca, dukkha, anatta.
– If one has any of those ten “wrong views”, one’s mind is not capable of grasping Tilakkhana.
– For example, if one does not believe in kamma/kamma vipaka, then the whole basis of Tilakkhana falls apart. Such a mind would not accept anicca Nature to be correct.This is explained in many posts. See, for example, “Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna Stage.”
Again, I am not saying that Sybe’s case falls under this category.
Another possibility is one may not have been able to make the “connection.” I suggest the video which I posted yesterday under a different topic.
“Good Discourse on Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta”Please post any comments on that video under that topic.
This is a good topic to discuss.
Both PBR and Tien are stating their views as “they abide by them.”
– In fact, I think one needs to decide, based on one’s own situation, whether a statement that one is about to make is a “musāvāda” or not.
– Sometimes, a “lie’ is not a “musāvāda.’In ALL CASES, what really matters is one’s INTENTION. The following example can illustrate the point.
10. During the Nazi terror in Germany, many Germans “lied” to the Nazis that they were not hiding Jews in their houses; of course the intention was to save human lives and thus it was the right thing to do. They acquired good kamma for protecting lives.
We need to realize that “lying” — as meant in as “musāvāda” in the five precepts — really means the “intention” involved: “Musā” means “wrong or incompatible with morals” and “vāda means “speech”; see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“.
Therefore, even though they were literally lying, their intention was not a “musāvāda“, but actually a “good deed”.The above is #10 in the post, “Right Speech – How to Avoid Accumulating Kamma.”
lodonyo wrote: “Buddhas followers didnt earn money though…? Earning money in general seems to go against the very idea of ”giving without expecting anything in return”.
No. That is a misconception.
It is only bhikkhus who are not supposed to earn money (they are taken care of by the lay disciples.)A layperson has to make money to buy food, clothes, medicine, etc. AND to sustain the family (if married.)
Upekkha asked:”What about idle chatter in sankappa when it is to yourself in your thoughts? Is idle talk immoral in sankappa too?”
Yes. As I have explained in the following post, both conscious thinking and speech are vaci sankhara.
“Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra”The IMPORTANT thing to remember is that we do kamma with THOUGHTS.
– It is the javana power in THOUGHTS that have kammic power. Our speech and actions have origins in our thoughts. In other words, we think first and speak or take action next. But we may not realize that.
– I discussed this at a bit deeper level in the recent post, “Dhammā, Kamma, Saṅkhāra, Mind – Critical Connections“Sybe07 has tried to post the following comment and was unable to. I am sorry about this persisting issue. Hopefully, the forum software team will be able to fix this issue soon. It seems to be an intermittent problem, since Sybe07 was able to post his original question above.
Sybe07’s comment:
Thanks Lal,
In SN35.245 en SN47.12 sati is compared to a gatekeeper who is wise and competent. I think this also says a lot.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.245/en/bodhiYes. Sati is another misinterpreted Pali word.
Sati means keeping the mind on a particular arammana. That can be good or bad.
– Miccha sati is keeping the mind on a defiled arammana, say, stealing something, sexual misconduct, etc.
– Samma sati is keeping the mind on moral thought objects. That can have a wide range from, say, thinking about giving to focusing on a deep Dhamma concept.Samadhi is a related word that also has been misinterpreted.
– Miccha sati leads to miccha samadhi. Thus, one ‘s mind will focus on a misdeed or a wrong view.
– Samma sati leads to samma samadhi. Here, one’s mind will be focused on a moral deed or a concept.Sybe wrote: “Thinking about this the thought of conscience came to mind.
A conscientious person is also concerned with keeping the mind clean, undefiled with immoral thoughts, speech and actions. He/she has a strong sense of moral shame and dread (two treasures).”That is right. What you describe is samma sati.
I have revised the English translation that you provided. Hopefully, that will convey the meanings of the “seven treasures” better.
Upekkha asked: “By “Whoever, man or woman”, is this also referring to anariyas?”
Yes. Of course. It applies to ANYONE who is cultivating/accumulating these treasures.
– As one keeps building up on these treasures, one could become an Ariya.
– That process ends only at the Arahant stage.The following is my version of the whole sutta.
– Feel free to ask questions.“Bhikkhus, there are these seven treasures. Which seven? The treasure of Saddhā (faith), the treasure of sīla (moral conduct), the treasure of hiri (shame of wrongdoings), the treasure of ottappa (fear of wrongdoings), the treasure of suta (listening), the treasure of cāga (giving/generosity), and the treasure of paññā (wisdom).
“And what is the treasure of faith? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has faith in Buddha’s Awakening: ‘Indeed, the Buddha is worthy and rightly self-awakened, perfect in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, knower of this world, unexcelled as a teacher for humans and heavenly beings (Devas and Brahmas), fully-awakened, blessed.’ This is called the treasure of faith.
“And what is the treasure of moral conduct? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants (alcohol and drugs). This, bhikkhus, is called the treasure of moral conduct.
“And what is the treasure of shame of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple feels the shame of bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of shame of wrongdoings.
“And what is the treasure of fear of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels fear of wrongdoings such as bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of fear of wrongdoings.
“And what is the treasure of listening? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has heard Buddha Dhamma (correct teachings), has retained what he/she has heard, has stored in memory what he/she has heard. Those teachings are perfect in the beginning, perfect in the middle, perfect in the end, that—in their meaning and expression—proclaim a virtuous life that is entirely complete and pure. This is called the treasure of listening.
“And what is the treasure of giving/generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in generosity, responsive to requests, delighting in giving. This is called the treasure of giving/generosity.
“And what is the treasure of wisdom? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has cultivated wisdom by learning true Dhamma and is following the path to end suffering. This is called the treasure of wisdom.”
These bhikkhus are the seven treasures.
The treasure of faith,
the treasure of moral conduct,
the treasures of shame and fear of wrongdoings,
the treasures of listening, generosity,
& wisdom as the seventh treasure.
Whoever, man or woman, has these treasures
is said not to be poor, has not lived in vain.Hi Johnny,
‘Sankhara paccaya vinnana’ is not the same as ‘upadana paccaya bhava.’
What happens is that in the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, one gets “trapped” in that particular arammana, in your example, an attractive woman.
– Then one would start generating lustful thoughts (vaci sankhara) about the woman and may turn and take another look (involving kaya sankhara.)
– Those sankhara are generated due to avijja via “avijja paccaya sankhara.” Then it creates or feeds the “lustful vinnana” via “sankhara paccaya vinnana.” That then goes through the rest of the PS steps including revisiting the “tanha paccaya upadana” step. The next step there is “upadana paccaya bhava” and thus he is in a “temporary lustful bhava.” Then he may be “born” in that lustful state and may take further actions, such as going and talking to her.
– Paticca Samuppada steps are not necessarily linear as I discussed in the past few posts.Cubibobi and Sybe07: “He also made it clear in one of his books:
Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond
On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:
“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana..”I have highlighted what is wrong with the statement.
The Buddha approved Ariya jhana and rejected anariya jhana.
– Ariya jhana can be attained ONLY (but not all) those who have attained magga phala.
– Those who “enjoy” anariya jhana may have the wrong perception that those states are something to do with magga phala. As I have pointed out, jhanic states are the mental states in brahma realms. Those brahmas (unless they have magga phala) can be reborn in the apayas.I took a look at the Gopakamoggallāna Sutta (MN 108).
– It says, “Na ca kho, brāhmaṇa, so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ vaṇṇesi, napi so bhagavā sabbaṃ jhānaṃ na vaṇṇesīti.”
– That means, “The Blessed One, brahmin, did not praise every type of jhana, nor did he condemn every type of jhana”.Then it is explained what kind of jhana the Buddha approved and praised.
– As I keep saying, we need to be very careful with this kind of translations.Johnny: “Aren’t the subsequent looking events no longer purely a vipāka viññāṇa?”
Yes. Those subsequent “looking events” are done with INTENTION (thus involve vaci sankhara to think about the mind-pleasing figure and to turn the head with kaya sankhara), and are DONE WITH kamma vinnana. In other words, they involve “sankhara paccaya vinnana.”
Even though those subsequent “lookings” involve cakkhu vinnana, they are INITIATED by mano vinnana.
That is a good question. We need to be thinking along those lines.
I agree with Lang (and I have stated this many times with Tipitaka references) that jhana are not necessary to attain magga phala.
The two discourses of Ajahn Brahm that I listened to did not mention jhana. So, I was unaware of his position on that.
– I also did not agree fully with a few of the things mentioned in the two discourses that I listened to.
– However, he was better than many others. Some, in particular, do not associate Nibbana with ending the rebirth process. Ajahn Brahm emphasized this important point. He detailed the kind of suffering that one goes through in the rebirth process, and why one must end the rebirth process to end samsaric suffering.We can get something out of discourses by some.
– However, it is completely useless to listen to some others.
– I try to listen to different bhikkhus (and laypeople) when I have time, just to get an idea of what is out there. Most of them, I don’t need to listen to more than once to realize that it is a waste of time.
– However, I think one may be able to get some insights by listening to discourses by a selected number of bhikkus/laypeople.
– It would be nice to get the opinions of others who have listened to Ajahn Brahm. We have discussed the teachings of Goenka in detail in the link that Lang provided above.Cubibobi (Lang) has not been able to post a comment. He emailed me the following comment. Thus there are still some issues with posting.
Hi all,
I just saw this forum which mentions two teachers I used to follow closely, so I’d like to share a few experiences.
With S. N. Goenka (known to us as Goenkaji), I took a few 10-day meditation courses and one 7-day course that taught the Satipatthana Sutta. In the forum about Goenka’s vipassana, I did my best to describe a 10-day course:
I’m not now practicing that way, but hearing a phrase like “burning/eradicating old sankharas� brings back memory, some of which unpleasant.
I suppose many who went through the courses can recall times of sitting through difficulties in the mind (from past sankharas coming up, manifesting as sensations on the body), mustering mental strength to get through emotional “storms”, because this was how purification took place, like letting pus out of a wound. I suppose this is what Invo meant by �dark night of the soul�.
I recall wondering at times: “How do we eradicate past sankharas since they are infinite, given that samsara has no beginning?”
With Ajahn Brahm, I had a great time listening to his numerous talks on YouTube: a gentle, laid-back, humorous teacher. His talks were gems, but a few of them gave me some discouragement, where he emphasized that jhana was prerequisite to liberation.
He also made it clear in one of his books:
Mindfulness, Bliss, And Beyond
On page 127, he made this point very clearly. The first paragraph on that page read:
“In the original Buddhist scriptures there is only one word for
�meditation� and that is jhana. According to the fully enlightened
Ven. Ananda in the Gopaka-Moggallana Sutta (MN 108,27) the only
kind of meditation that the Buddha recommended was jhana.Thus jhana
designates Buddhist meditation proper, where the meditator�s mind is
stilled of all thought, secluded from all five-sense activity, and is radiant
with otherworldly bliss. Put bluntly, if it isn�t jhana then it isn�t true
Buddhist meditation! Perhaps this is why the culminating factor of the
Buddha�s noble eightfold path, the one that defines right meditation, is
nothing less than the four jhanas.”I must admit I felt a bit discouraged since I had a “nagging feeling” that I would not get into jhana in this lifetime.
I continued searching and learning and “stumbled” into puredhamma.net (or perhaps when a student is desperate the teacher appears?)
It was eye-opening, and I felt great joy in learning true meanings of Pali words, such as anicca, dukkha, anatta, and the keyword “san”. Here, there is no getting “through mental storms” to get to the “beyond”; reading, and oftentimes rereading, a post, and contemplating it afterwards bring only joy, and more importantly, a kind of faith that sotapanna magga phala is possible.
I hope those with similar past experiences as mine find something beneficial here.
Best
P.S. Writing to here, I recall another book in the style of Goenka’s vipassana:
The Quiet Mind
https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Quiet-Mind.pdfAs you know, Goenkaji supposely taught vipassana in the style of Sayagi U Ba Khin. Sayagi U Ba Khin had other students besides SN Goenka, one of whom was John Coleman, the author of this book, which describes his spiritual search.
In chapter 17 of the book, he described his enlightenment experience. On page 171-172 he described the “wild dance of electrons” throughout his hand, how he experienced the “atomic theories” in his own body. Also on page 172, he alluded to the burning of old kammas through this intense experience.
In Goenka’s method, there’s mentioning of the stage of bhanga, where one experiences the dissolution throughout the physical body through rapidly changing sensations, and I figured that John Coleman was describing this stage, or even beyond.
Again, similar to reading Ajahn Brahm, I felt somewhat discouraged while reading this, due to the “nagging feeling” that I would not experience this stage.
