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The keyword in this sutta is “upaya.” It is closely related to the word “upādāna.” As I mentioned in the new post today, “upa” means “keeping close.”
– The word upaya means “having upādāna for the worldly things.”
– See, “Tanhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paticca Samuppāda”The first phrase itself is highly condensed. “Upayo, bhikkhave, avimutto, anupayo vimutto“.
– Therefore, it means: “Bhikkhus, one who is attached (to this world or the aggregates) is not liberated; one who is not attached (who has removed tanhā) is liberated.Then the sutta states that separately for the four aggregates: rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.
Next verse: Because one is attached to rūpa, one craves for rūpa, and one highly-values rūpa, the (kamma)viññāṇa grows and gets established.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.Then the next verse says: “Bhikkhus, without such attachment and craving for rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra it is not possible for viññāṇa to grow, get established, and to bring rebirth.
“Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned craving for rūpa, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishment of (kamma)viññāṇa.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.Final verse: “When that (kamma)viññāṇa is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, one is liberated. By being liberated, his mind is steady. By being steady, he is content. By being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is rebirth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this existence.’”
I am reproducing the whole sutta translation that Siebe has referred to below. I am doing this to illustrate the fact that it does not serve any purpose to translate some deep suttas word-by-word. Can anyone understand what is meant by the following translation? Please feel free to state what you think the following translation means. I am working on the new post and may not be able to comment for a day or two.
53. Involvement
At Sāvatthī.
“Mendicants, if you’re involved, you’re not free. If you’re not involved, you’re free.
As long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with form, supported by form, founded on form. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.
Or consciousness would remain involved with feeling …
Or consciousness would remain involved with perception …
Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.
Mendicants, suppose you say: ‘Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible.
If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.
If a mendicant has given up greed for the feeling element …
perception element …
choices element …
consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness. Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.
Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
AxelSnaxel was unable to post the following comment in reply to TripleGemStudent’s above. He has asked me to post it. His comment is below:
“Yes, that is exactly what it is. It’s great and we regularly have English dhamma talks there. It’s been immensely helpful on my path.
We even have a small group for monthly Skype sermons with Amadassana Thero himself.
Hope to see you there
https://discord.gg/A7gAS8x”Siebe asked, “So, my question is in fact; where in PS do asava arise?”
Asava is closely associated with gati. “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)”
When an attractive (or repulsive) arammana (thought object) is encountered, one starts thinking about how to enjoy it more (or how to get rid of it) PURELY based on that vedana (like/dislike).
– Those thoughts are sankhara. One may think about doing akusala kamma to enjoy that arammana more. That is when one starts acting with avijja, “avijja paccaya sankhara.”On the other hand, if one did not have such deeply-embedded cravings (defilements), then one would not do such akusala kamma.
– That is the same as saying not having “bad gati.”One gets rid of such asava or gati by learning Buddha Dhamma, and realizng the bad conseuqences of doing akusala kamma.
Another point to note is that one does not arbitrarily start doing akusala kamma with “avijja paccaya sankhara”
– An attractive (or repulsive) arammana must be there to “trigger those asava or gati“.
– Therefore, the whole process of “acting with avijja” (or “generating sankhara with avijja“) really starts at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in PS.
– That is what I discussed in the last post or two in recent posts. See, #6, #7 in the recent post, “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)”
– I will discuss this more in the upcoming posts.Christian wrote: “Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to Anariya jhanas” – from post Ariya jhanas – power of human mind.
Now I started to doubting it. In the suttas even Buddha (before dying) goes into jhanas so if for Buddha does are not permanent so how it can be for Anagami and Arahant?”
I think this could be a misunderstanding of what is meant by “permanent.”
– When I say “Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to anariya jhanas”, I do not mean an Ariya would be permanently in a jhanic state.
– It means when one cultivates an Ariya jhana one will be able to get into that jhana anytime one wishes. That ability does not go away even in future lives.
– One would be an Anagami if one can get to the first Ariya jhana, because one would have REMOVED kama raga. An Anagami would not be in a jhanic state at all times. Rather he/she would be able to get to that jhana any time he/she wishes.
– When an Angami dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm. That is a “permanent jhanic state”.On the other hand, people who cultivate anariya jhana can lose the ability to get into that jhana even during this lifetime. As I have mentioned before, Devadatta was a good example. He had cultivated highest anariya jhanas AND supernormal (iddhi) powers too. But he lost all that and was reborn in an apaya.
Did I address your question or did you mean something else?
sumbodhi asked: “Is it a way to recognize what’s chanted are words said by the Buddha?”
I think it is used to close out a statement made by anyone. I could be wrong. I guess we need to look at its occurrences in the Tipitaka to see whether that holds.
TripleGemStudent: “Just wondering what’s this “Christians Discord server?”
Christian is a person who posted some videos in the link that I provided above.
Thank you, Axel.
I have heard very good things about Abhaya Theros retreats. Christian has posted some videos on testimonials from retreat attendees from the past retreats at, “Personal Experiences.”
I have met Abhaya Thero a couple of times in my visits to Sri Lanka in 2014 and 2016. Even though I did not get to meet Waharaka Thero (due to his illnesses), I was able to meet Abhaya Thero and Sudithadeera Thero. They provided me with many recorded discourses of Waharaka Thero and were very helpful. They have, of course, made those discourses available at “සදහම් දේශනා” (in Sinhala)
– When I first met Abhaya Thero in 2014 he was not yet ordained. He was an engineer. So, he has a good background in science as well.
– He has a unique ability to get others to samadhi with his unique style. Those who had cultivated jhanas in recent previous lives are able to attain jhana in a short time (during a retreat).The only reservation I have about Abhaya Thero’s retreats is the emphasis on jhanas. It is, of course, a great thing to cultivate jhanas. But as I have discussed at length on this website, it is important to make note of the following two points.
1. It is not easy to distinguish between anariya and Ariya jhana. Only the person who experiences jhana would know whether kama raga are only suppressed (anariya jhana) or removed (Ariya jhana). As Waharaka Thero has also pointed out, one must remove kama raga to attain even the first Ariya jhana. I have a discourse from Waharaka Thero on that point in the post, “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro.”
– I have also discussed these issues in detail at, “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”2. Jhanas are not necessary to attain magga phala. Those who are not able to attain jhana in a retreat need not be discouraged. What is important is to grasp the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature. Abhaya Thero does a good job of explaining those concepts at the beginning of the retreats.
P.S. New post for this week is, “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)“
Johnny had submitted the following comment and it did not get published due to current issues with the forum software. They are still trying to fix the “bugs” in new software. The following is a comment from Johnny.
Hi wta,
This is the desana I was referring to. Story begins at 53:29.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZI2UU5jznY&list=PLGrCtt8wuHbOz67iBmmtrI2rGfj-uoYfQ&index=48&t=0s
Avijja (a + vijja) is without the “knowledge of the truth (vijja).
It is not realizing that NOTHING in this world is worthy of praise, and attachment to things in this world WILL lead to suffering.
– This vision (Samma Ditthi) is first glimpsed at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– The vision (Samma Ditthi) and the perception (sanna) that goes with it are fully completed only at the Arahant stage,Another way to look at this is the following>
– Moha is at one end, where one’s mind is totally covered. It is an asobhana cetasika.
– Panna (wisdom) is at the other end and is OPTIMIZED for an Arahant. Panna is a sobhana cetasika.
– Avijja is in the middle.Anyone who is not at least a Sotapanna Anugami COULD act with moha (and do an apayagami action) if an arammana is enticing enough.
– A Sotapanna Anugami or above will NEVER act with moha. But they may act with avijja to varying degrees.
– Only an Arahant will never even act with avijja, let alone moha.P.S. The forum issues are still there to varying degrees.
– The software for the forum was updated about a couple of weeks ago and that was when these problems started. They are still working to fix those issues.
– See, “Testing Forum Submissions”Sorry that I did not see this question. This question is very similar to the one you raised under the other topic today.
However, I can answer in a different way here. Both explanations are inter-consistent.
I mentioned this in the recent post, “Kamma, Saṅkhāra, and Abhisaṅkhāra“, see #12, which says:
12. Even though the first step in Paticca Samuppāda is simply, “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā,” it really refers to abhisaṅkhārā.
Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga, explains the term “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā” in akusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda (that leads to suffering) as follows: “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro“.
Translated: “What is avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra, kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, cittasaṅkhāra“. (here, citta saṅkhāra is the same as manō saṅkhāra).
Those are all abhisaṅkhāra, even though the verse is simplified as “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā“.
Two categories of saṅkhāra are mentioned there. One category refers to types of kamma accrued (Puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra.)So, the point is that Puññābhisaṅkhāra or puñña kamma are also done with avijjā!
– That is the avijjā anusaya left in ANYONE below the Arahant stage.An Arahant will do only puñña kiriya (i.e., moral deeeds without any abhisankhara)
Let me know if that is not clear.
Siebe wrote: “In most deeds, also good ones, there is an ego-centric motive or perspective.”
Yes. That is the avijja anusaya remaining in ANY person below the Arahant stage.
“Any ego-centric view or attitude must be deluded/corrupted because of asmi mana.”
Yes. That is what is meant by the above. Only an Arahant does not have asmi mana.
“Therefor i also do not belief that one will ever escape samsara if one becomes a more and more strategic person. What do you think?”
I am not sure what you mean by that, Siebe.
Who is a “strategic person”?Hi Tobias,
What I had written (the latter part of what you quoted) was not fully correct. I just revised that as follows:
When one does punna kamma, it is the avijja cetasika that is involved. However, if one has comprehended Tilakkhana FULLY (i.e., if one is an Arahant), it becomes a punna kiriya, without kammic consequences.Now, to the question that you raised:
“Avijja is not a cetasika, moha is. Anyway, how can one do punna kamma with avijja, when this good act involves sobhana cetasika? Are the citta vithi mixed: sobhana/asobhana citta vithi?”Yes. This is a key point that is a bit hard to grasp.
– As long as one does not FULLY understand the Four Noble Truths (or Tilakkhana), one is unable to FULLY REALIZE the unfruitful-ness AND danger in remaining in the rebirth process. So, any “good deed” (punna kamma) that one does, has at least a subtle expectation for a “good return”.– That “expectation for a good return” reduces as one advance to higher stages of magga phala.
– For example, an Anagami does not have any expectations associated with kama loka. But still wants to live and still likes to hear/discuss Dhamma, for example.
– All future expectations for anything in this world go away only at the Arahant stage. Then any “good deed” WILL NOT have any kammic consequences. It just becomes a “good action” or punna kiriya.This is explained in the “Kukkuravatika Sutta (Majjhima Nikāya 57) – Kammakkhaya”
– See #12 specifically.I will get to this point slowly in the new series, “Origin of Life”
– That series is a systematic way to look at the whole process.
– In particular, the sub-section: “Worldview of the Buddha”Anyway, please feel to ask questions. This is a key issue.
