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“How can a dhamma even be below this level when a suddhashtaka is the base unit and cannot be divided?”
Dhammā are rupa that are not detectable with the five physical senses. They are rupa detected with the mana indriya. See, #9 of “What are Dhammā? – A Deeper Analysis.”
Also see, “Our Two Worlds: Material and Immaterial.”
Dhammā are, “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“. I need to find a reference for this particualr verse. If anyone has the reference, please post. I am providing a related reference below.
The following reference is in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. Āyatanavibhaṅga
“Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.The need for interaction with other humans is inherent in a human. It is like “kama guna” that I discussed in the post “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).”
The need for social interactions starts to diminish as one attains higher and higher magga phala starting as a Sotapanna Anugami. An Ariya (Noble Person) is one who starts seeing that things in this world (including the need for “social life”) have no value.
– At that point, one just tends to interact with similar minded people who are also on the Noble Path. Such interactions are different from social interactions like “get together and have a good time.”The need for attention is critically important in the early years, as a baby. That is when we develop our character with the influence of especially the parents.
It seems to me Wta, that you seem to have a good family, even though you did not get along with your Dad. Otherwise, you would not be coming to this website and the forum.
– My advice regarding your Dad is to try to be respectful to him and not do anything to aggravate him. It could just be that your personalities (which are part of “gati“; see below) are different. We MUST respect our parents no matter how bad they are. It is very hard to get a human body (you may not know much about gandhabba yet), and we have a human body thanks to our parents.
– Having conflicts with those who are close leads to an agitated state of mind. That is especially true regarding a parent.
– Staying away is better than having arguments. But it is best if you can slowly improve bonds with the parents and family. Take the initiative to be respectful to the parents, even if it is hard.My other suggestion is to continue learning Dhamma. Listen to those desana that Johnny and Christian suggested if you find them useful. If you have a temple closeby go there and participate in the activities there. Not all temples are the same. But that is much better than getting together with bad friends, having bad social interactions. Participating in the forum and discussing Dhamma concepts with like-minded people is another. When you are on the path, Dhamma will direct you in the right direction, and you will start connecting with like-minded people.
– Many people, especially young people, fall into the trap of trying to make friends just to overcome loneliness. Many start associating with bad people and develop bad habits.The joy of Dhamma is unlike another. One comprehending Dhamma will never be lonely.
You may want to read the following section when you have time (just pick topics of interest):
Moral Living and FundamentalsThese are some initial thoughts. If you have specific issues we can discuss.
P.S. I mentioned “gati” (pronounced “gathi”) above. Those are one’s character/habits; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)” and the posts referred to in there.
Welcome to the forum, Wta!
I am having a really busy day today. I just saw your post. I may not be able to respond to your questions today.
If anyone has suggestions, please feel free to respond. I am sure Wta would appreciate any suggestions.Thanks, Tobias. You asked, “Just to make it clear, I understand asava as defilements deep down in a being. Those asava become anusaya when the asava start to surface as gati. Is that right?”
– Yes. We can also say that hidden asava can be triggered by a strong arammana and they come to the surface as anusaya.
– If one cultivates gati that are compatible with those asava, then those asava will get stronger.I had terms wrong in the post, The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories).
I have revised both posts to make things a bit more clear. Please let me know if I missed something.
As you quoted, I wrote, “being brain dead is virtually equivalent to being dead…”
I did not say “equivalent’, I said, “virtually equivalent”.
– Yes. As long as the gandhabba has not left the body permanently, one has not died.
– But with the brain not functioning, one cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or think. That is what is I meant by saying “virtually equivalent” to being dead. It is “as if” one is dead.Thank you for sharing your experience, Iolonyo.
Each person walks on the Path in one’s own way. There are three things to remember:
1. Nibbana (cooling down of the mind) is dependent on getting rid of greed and anger. That takes time and is dependent on getting rid of one’s bad gati (habits/character qualities) and cultivating good gati (the opposites). That itself involves taking control of one’s actions and conscious thoughts gradually. See, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas).”
2. Getting rid of wrong views and learning Dhamma accelerates that process.
3. As one makes progress, one should be able to see changes in one’s gati over time (and the associated “cooling down”). That is the only “measure” we have on making progress. This progress may be not apparent for a while, but once it starts, it will accelerate.You seem to be making progress.
A few comments on some of your statements:
“Cultivated more of sukkha, discard immediately all dukkha”.
– You probably mean cultivate the causes and conditions for sukha and discard the causes and conditions for dukkha.” I am essentially trying to ease my suffering and if experiencing “cooling down” as an alternative will do it, I will do it. I would like to use and teach this model but only after living it amd experiencing real effects for a long time.”
– Excellent! But note that some strong kamma vipaka (bringing suffering) cannot be stopped, even though maybe reduced. The main goal is to stop such future vipaka by not making NEW causes and conditions. For example, when one gets a headache that could be due to excessive drinking, and thus can be stopped by stopping that bad habit. But if one gets cancer, that is due to a strong past kamma, and one can only follow medical procedures to get rid of cancer.“how can we “STOP” the ongoing karmas/actions effectively?”
– I hope you can see the answer to this question in the my statement above. The only way to stop past kamma vipaka is to live a moral life, so as not to make CONDITIONS for such vipaka to materialize. Some can be avoided and others may not be avoidable.
– The hard part of the practice is to bear those bad vipaka and be determined not to do new bad kamma.
– See “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”” how can we KNOW the obvious sukkha/dukkha effect of a particular action?”
– If an action is based on greed or anger that is guaranteed to bring dukkha in the future, if not in this life in future lives. See, “How to Taste Nibbāna.”
– If an action is based on non-greed, compassion, kindness, etc, those are bound to bring sukha or happiness in the future.
– Learning Dhamma makes one truly understand that. That is how one gets rid of wrong views and learn how certain actions lead to corresponding results. That is Paticca Samuppada that you mentioned at the end.Welcome to the forum, Austin. Thank you for sharing your experiences on the forum.
Austin has been writing to me for a little while. I am impressed with his devotion at such a young stage.
I do not know those other “gurus” and techniques mentioned in his comment. I encouraged Austin to share his experience so that he may get some feedback from those who may be familiar with those techniques.
Vedananupassana in Satipatthana involves both those, Akmal.
1. While doing Vedananupassana one is supposed to contemplate how both types of vedana ARISE.
– In particular, one needs to contemplate on how samphassa-ja-vedana arise, and that those are the ones that are going to bring FUTURE vipaka vedana.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be avoided and one should contemplate on that and avoid them.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be reduced only by changing one’s gati (or anusaya).
– Most people do not realize that one can acquire “bad gati” by just engaging in “bad conscious thoughts” or bad vaci sankhara based on samphassa-ja-vedana. See, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra.” Of course, bad kaya sankhara MUST BE avoided too. But vaci sankhara come before kaya sankhara (upon the arising of samphassa-ja-vedana), and that is why focusing on vaci sankhara is important.
– For example, an alcoholic sees an accessible bottle of alcohol, he gets a nice warm feeling (samphassa-ja-vedana). First, he thinks about having a drink and then, of course, proceeds (with kaya sankhara) to have a drink. So, it must be stopped with the first idea of having a drink (vaci sankhara).2. Vipaka vedana are the RESULTS of past deeds or past kamma. One may be able to avoid some by acting wisely, but many are UNAVOIDABLE.
– So, one should really investigate how future vipaka vedana can be STOPPED by being mindful and avoiding bad deeds (kaya sankhara) AND bad conscious thoughts and speech (vaci sankhara).3. By engaging in Vedananupassana, one can reduce bad gati (and thereby anusaya), AND cultivate good gati. That helps cultivate samadhi and panna (wisdom). Getting to samadhi means “cooling down the mind” and a “cooled, calmed” mind can grasp deep Dhamma easier and thereby cultivate panna (wisdom).
– Those results are common to the other three types of Satipatthana too.4. I am glad that Johnny, y not, and Akmal all thought of the significance of these factors. I hope that we can “connect more dots” and get a better overall picture with the remaining posts in the “Origin of Life” series.
To answer y not’s question: This is the reason that I am writing the new series on the “Origin of Life.”
Our experiences are just a series of events.
– Our experiences are the results of past kamma. We need to remember that kamma can be good, bad, or neutral. Thus vipaka are also good, bad, and neutral.
– Therefore, our experiences are just the results of past causes.
– There is no need for the concept of a “self.”However, we cannot say that there is “no-self” either since each person responds differently to sensory inputs. That is because each person has different temporary gati. So, this is related to Johnny’s question in the previous comment.
– Therefore, even though there is no “self” like a “soul”, there is a “self” who, based on those experiences starts doing NEW kamma (to enjoy more pleasurable experiences or to avoid unpleasurable ones.)
– Of course, those will bring vipaka in the future, and that is why the rebirth process continues.Instead of debating whether there is a “self” or “no-self”, we can explain everything in terms of Paticca Samuppada. It may take a few more posts in this series to get there.
y not has sent me the following comment to publish. Apparently, he ran into a problem getting it published at the forum. If anyone else has that problem, please let me know ([email protected]).
y not’s comment:
The Great Discourse on Causation
4. Regarding a SelfThe whole section (as well as the whole sutta, for that matter) is worth reading and reflecting upon. With regard to Vedana, the highlight comes just past the half-way point:
“So those who say ‘feeling is my self’ regard as self that which is evidently impermanent, a mixture of pleasure and pain, and liable to rise and fall.”
(Iti so diṭṭheva dhamme aniccasukhadukkhavokiṇṇaṃ uppādavayadhammaṃ attānaṃ samanupassamāno samanupassati, yo so evamāha: ‘vedanā me attā’ti)Here ‘vedanā me attā’ti’ is translated ‘feeling is my self’ in the sense of asmi mana’, I take it: ‘I’ cannot be other than these feelings; and not in the sense ‘these feelings are anatta’. Is that how it is?
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard feeling as self.”
(Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ).
Again, the same question here.“Now, as to those who say:
‘Feeling is definitely not my self. My self does not experience feeling.’ You should say this to them
“But reverend, where there is nothing felt at all, would the thought “I am” occur there?’”
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which does not experience feeling.” *
(‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, appaṭisaṃvedano me attā’ti, so evamassa vacanīyo:
‘yattha panāvuso, sabbaso vedayitaṃ natthi api nu kho, tattha “ayamahamasmī”ti siyā’”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”)*This verse needs some clarification. It appears to say: that which does NOT experience feeling is anatta.(??)
So, does it follow that which experiences feeling be atta? That cannot be so either, as per the next verse:“Now, as to those who say:
Feeling is definitely not my self. But it’s not that my self does not experience feeling. My self feels, for my self is liable to feel.’
You should say this to them,
‘Suppose feelings were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over
When there’s no feeling at all, with the cessation of feeling, would the thought “I AM THIS” occur there?’” (my capitals)
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which is liable to feel.”
(na heva kho me vedanā ATTA, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me ATTA, ATTA me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me ATTA’ti.
So evamassa vacanīyo—
vedanā ca hi, āvuso, sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesā nirujjheyyuṃ.
Sabbaso vedanāya asati vedanānirodhā api nu kho tattha ‘ayamahamasmī’ti siyā”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me attā, attā me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me attā’ti samanupassituṃ…then follows the hurdle to surmount:
“Not regarding anything in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.(So evaṃ na samanupassanto na ca kiñci loke upādiyati)
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.(anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati)It is clear that vedana are of anatta nature, but in what sense is ‘atta’ intended here? For a person thinks:
‘if I am not my feelings, what else can I be (made of), what else is it worthwhile being made of’? ‘(vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ)’The hurdle is this: for all but Anagamis and Arahants, it is impossible to conceive of a state of being where sukkha can be (made of) anything else but somanassa vedana. One knows that this is not so in actual fact (for one sees that vedana are anicca), yet one still cannot help perceiving it otherwise. Or, it can be said, the ditthi about dukkha is correct but not the sanna: one still hopes for an existence where to experience those pleasant feelings, even taking occasional unpleasant feelings and the risk of upheaval due to unexpected change (viparinama dukkha) in the bargain, taking even the inevitability of the end of that existence, death, in the bargain.
I would be very grateful if Lal would provide the correct translations of ‘atta’ as the word occurs above, IF they be other than ‘atta’ in the sense of ‘beyond our control’ or ‘beyond our power to influence’, as well as anything that may have escaped my notice, for the full import of at least this section 4 of the sutta.
Gati are not a form of vipaka vedana. But certainly, gati can influence what kind of vipaka vedana can materialize (or prevented).
Gati are habits/character qualities.
Your reference to “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya” post is exactly right.
– Past kamma are waiting for the right conditions to bring vipaka.
– By acting wisely, one can avoid bad vipaka and also make it likely for good vipaka to happen.
– In the same way, if one is living foolishly, one can (without even knowing) setup conditions for bad past kamma to bring vipaka, and avoid receiving good kamma vipaka.If one is eating junk food and not exercising, those are bad habits. They can make one get sick often. And the opposite lifestyle will avoid getting sick, injured etc.
If one is an alcoholic/drug addict, those are bad gati and can help set up conditions to get sick, get into fights, lose one’s job, etc.
– If one cultivates gati to engage in meritorious deeds, one is setting up conditions for good vipaka to materialize.There are many ways to contemplate this.
– Of course, following the Noble Path is the guaranteed way to get rid of bad gati and to cultivate good gati.Yes. The translation could be better.
The gist of the sutta is the following:
It is not possible for average humans to judge the spiritual attainments of another person. Only a Buddha can do that.Especially a lower magga phala (like Sotapanna or Sakadagami) depends on just the UNDERSTANDING of the unfruitful nature of this world and the danger of craving for things in this world. They have removed “DITTHI vipallasa” or “confusion about WRONG VIEWS.”
– But even that person may not know that in a few cases.
– Only a Buddha can see whether one has that understanding.However, a Sotapanna or a Sakadagami has NOT removed the sanna for sensory pleasures (that is why they are reborn in kama loka). In other words, he/she may UNDERSTAND that those are not worth pursuing. But they just cannot help enjoying sensory pleasures. That means they have not removed the “SANNA vipallasa”. That means “confusion on PERCEPTIONS about wrong/unfruitful activities”.
– When one substantially removes this sanna vipallasa, one WILL know that one has attained the Anagami stage. That is because one will no longer have cravings for tasty food, sex, etc.
– Even then other people would not know.This is actually related to a question that you had asked before, I think, regarding the Sabbasava Sutta.
– Ditthi vipallasa is removed at the Sotapanna stage. Then sanna vipallasa decreases as one goes through higher stages and is completely removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, sanna vipallasa about sensory pleasures (kama raga) is removed at the Anagami stage. That is why it is self-evident to THAT person, not to others.Yes. It is a good desana. As I remember, it does provide references to suttas with the statement, “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti“.
– That includes the requirement of “listening to saddhamma or correct Buddha Dhamma“.A couple of such references are provided in the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” too.
In fact, many suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṃyutta SN (55)” of the Samyutta Nikāya discuss all four conditions required to attain the Sotapanna stage.
What I referred to in the reply to your first post on this topic above is the following:
– I am not aware of a TIpitaka REFERENCE that SPECIFICALLY says that Sotapanna PHALA CITTA is attained ONLY WHILE listening to an Ariya.
– See #3 of the post regarding this point. “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”If there is such a reference in the above desana of Ven. Abhaya, please get that reference from your friend and post it here. We all would appreciate that.
I hope you are having a productive time in Sri Lanka.
Thank you for the information, y not!
I was not aware of this information.
Some relevant information: This account is from “Milinda Panha“, which is a later addition to the Tipitaka.
– It is an account of a series of questions by a Greek King Milinda who ruled parts of India a few hundred years after the Buddha. The answers were provided by an Arahant named Nagasena.
– King Milinda was a Buddhist and had regular question and answer sessions with Ven. Nagasena.
– “Panha” means “questions”, so “Milinda Panha” means “Questions by Milinda”.
– The link provided by y not has English translations of those questions and answers.
