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Tobias wrote: “Please see #9: “…Translated: ‘And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity? …”
I just revised that as follows to make clear that it is the “identification of one or more of the five aggregates as one-self that is sakkāya ditthi” (which is different from the saññā of a “me” or “māna” that is removed at the Arahant stage):
“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity with the five aggregates (sakkāya diṭṭhi)?”This issue is related to the three types of vipallasa; see my comment above on June 22, 2019 at 1:47 pm. To quote from there:
“However, there are 3 types of “muddled views/perceptions/thoughts” called VIPALLASA (pronounced “vipallaasa”) about this world of 31 realms.
– Those are ditthi vipallasa, sannna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa”.Getting rid of ditthi vipallasa of nicca,sukha, atta, subha happens at the Sotapanna stage with the removal of sakkāya diṭṭhi.
– However, removal of “me” happens only at the Arahant stage with the removal of saññā of a “me” or “māna“.
– In other words, a Sotapanna knows that it is not correct to take any of the five aggregates to be “me”, but he/she still has that perception (saññā) and it arises automatically (citta). This saññā vipallas and citta vipallasa are removed by contemplating on the anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha nature.1 user thanked author for this post.
Akmal wrote: “I wanted to ask, are occult practices mentioned in the tipitaka?”
There are no “occult practices” per se mentioned in the Tipitaka.
However, the word “occult” means “paranormal phenomena”, meaning phenomena that cannot be understood by modern science; see, the Wikipedia article, “Occult”.
In the days of the Buddha, not only the followers of the Buddha, but also other yogis were able to engage in such actions as flying through the air (with the physical body) or even visiting deva and brahma realms with the “manomaya kaya” (which is the same as gandhabba).
Such feats were achieved not by practicing “black magic” or mysterious procedures, but by cleansing one’s mind.
– Non-Buddhist yogis did that by abstaining from immoral actions, speech, and thoughts, and also by suppressing the desire for sense pleasures.
– Buddha’s disciples did those things by rooting out not only abstaining from immoral actions, speech, and thoughts, but also by eliminating sense desires by comprehending the dangers of sense pleasures.Therefore, we need to think about issues like this relating to mind phenomena depending on the context.
In another example, “astral travel” can be done by cleansing one’s mind as discussed above. Furthermore, those who has cultivated such capabilities in their recent previous lives can develop such capabilities without much effort. The same with anariya jhana; those who had cultivated them in previous recent lives can “get them back” easily.
– However, there people who are selling “their techniques” by promising to teach how to do astral travel. Those are hoaxes.
– Therefore, one needs to be careful in addressing these issues.
I do not have much time to address other issues, but these are my initial thoughts.Hello Upekkha,
Sorry to hear about your problems.
I do not think it is the Mara (or more precisely Mara Devaputta), is the one who is making these problems. As I have discussed several times (see the links below), Mara Devapuatta is a deva of the highest deva realm. He wants people to do good deeds and be born as devas like him. However, he does not like people following Buddha Dhamma, because the Buddha has taught that one should pursue Nibbbana, and not strive to be born a deva.
There are “really bad beings” who try to confuse people and get them into trouble. Since you have had some problems in the past, you may have become a target. It is good that you are continuing those good practices, and with time I believe you be able to overcome these influences.
From your description it is not quite clear whether this “voice” wants you to do bad things or just stop following Buddha Dhamma.
Also, I do not think past discussions at this forum would have anything to do with your situation.
Following links may provide some more information:
“What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?“.
“Attitude towards kamaloka devas“, which was discussion at this forum some time back.
I understand the desire (and anxiousness that goes with it) of learning about Tilakkhana. Of course, it is the goal of each and every Buddhist.
Learning Buddha Dhamma (and especially Tilakkhana) is more like learning science/math than learning a natural arts subject like history or geography.
In the latter case, one can just memorize specific events in the past or specific geographic information. Once one memorizes that bit of information, there is nothing more to learn there.
In contrast, in math/science, one needs to understand concepts. Much more than memorization, one needs to be able to grasp key ides and then build on them. For example, one could memorize the standard multiplication table, and would then be able to answer questions on those exact multiplications that appear on the table: Thus, one would be able to answer that 3 times 5 is 15.
– However, if one is asked how much is 3 times 16, one cannot provide the answer unless one intuitively understands how to multiply such larger numbers.
– Thus, a teacher would have to first teach how such larger numbers can be multiplied using a certain technique. That technique CANNOT BE memorized. One just needs to understands the concept of multiplication of larger number.
– Furthermore, one can keep extending one’s capabilities to higher and deeper levels. There is no “end point”!Having a basic knowledge that dasa akusala are bad is like memorizing the multiplication table.
– Learning about anicca, dukkha, anatta nature is like learning how to do multiplication of any two random larger numbers.Just like multiplication of two random large numbers cannot be done just by memorizing the multiplication table, one cannot understand anicca, dukkha, anatta nature just by READING on what they are. The key ideas must be contemplated with examples from one’s own life.
– I have written many posts on anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). It is not necessary to understand each and every one of them. There are many different ways that one can comprehend Tilakkhana. Some may understand some aspects and others may understand other aspects. I myself keep learning about new aspects and then I write about that aspect.
– In that regard, discussions at the forum are very valuable. I wrote the past several posts after I contemplated and looked into deeper aspects of Tilakkhana, based on the topic, “what does ending of sakkaya ditthi really mean?“.Tilakkhana are fully understood only at the Arahant stage.
– Until then we just need to do our best to further our understanding. So, don’t be discouraged if you do not understand all aspects (i.e., each and every post).
– But each and every post will get you think in new direction or to further elaborate on a given aspect.
– Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if a certain aspect is not clear. It is also possible that I myself have not fully understood that particular aspect. As I said, Tilakkhana are fully understood only at the Arahant stage.Tobias wrote: “Vedana can be of 5 types: sukha, dukha, somanassa, domanassa, upekkha. Sukha, dukha and upekkha aris from kamma vipaka. But somanassa and domanassa vedana are mind made and fully removed at the Arahant stage. How are these 5 types connected to the universal vedana cetasika?”
Yes. Those are the five types of vedana and sukha, dukha and upekkha arise from kamma vipaka.
As the chart provided by Seng Kiat clearly illustrates, somannasa and domanassa vedana are fully mind-made.
– Those two are stopped from arising after the Arahant stage even in the present life.All five types are associated with the vedana cetasika.
However, the point in the post referred to by Tobias is that the first Noble Truth on suffering is not the physical suffering (dukha) itself.
– In particular, people tend to believe that one could get rid of physical suffering experienced IN THIS LIFE can be removed by attaining Nibbana. That is not correct.
– Only the somanassa and domanassa are removed at Arahanthood (that experienced in this life itself).
– However, any and ALL suffering (including physical suffering) are removed after the Aarahant attins Parinibbana, i.e., after the death of Arahant’s physical body.So, the First Noble Truth (Dukkha Sacca or “Truth ABOUT Suffering”) is about ALL future suffering. More precisely, it is about what kinds of sufferings are associated about the ALL future lives, including those horrific sufferings experienced in the apayas, not just the mild types experienced in the human realm.
Then the Second Noble Truth (Dukkha Samudaya or “san” + “udaya”) is about how that expanded suffering arises, i.e., the root causes (lobha, dosa, moha or “san”). Of course, this is described by Paticca Samuppada.
– This is a bit more deeper, since one needs to see how one gets “attracted” to “san” only because one does not comprehend the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world. Instead one perceives the nature to be of nicca, sukha, atta.Third (Dukkha nirodha) shows how that suffering can be stopped from arising (“nir” + “udā”, where “udā” is “arising”), by getting rid of those three root causes: lobha, dosa, moha or “san”.
– That of course requires the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.Fourth (Dukkha Nirodha Gāmini Patipadā) is the way to removal of “san”, i.e., the Noble Eightfold Path.
The difference between suffering itself and the First Noble Truth are also discussed in the post, “Is Suffering the Same as the First Noble Truth on Suffering?“.
Hello diogorobert,
It is not possible to write in a few posts all the details. So, it is possible that one may get a wrong impression by reading a post. For example, it is not correct to say that,
“1. Walk the mundane eightfold path: get rid of ten dasa akusala”. The post that quoted does not say that a Sotapanna will not commit any of dasa akusala.– One must make a resolve to remove all dasa akusala. However, a Sotapanna has not removed all of them. Only an Arahant can totally abstain from dasa akusala.
– The hardest of the dasa akusala to remove is miccha ditthi. This is done in many steps, and completed only at the Arahant stage. First, one removes the ten types of miccha ditthi via the mundane eightfold path. Then one removes sakkaya ditthi at the Sotapanna stage. But the wrong views/perceptions of nicca, sukha, atta nature are removed and the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature fully understood only at the Arahant stage.
– I have not discussed nicca, sukha, atta as opposites of anicca, dukkha, anatta in a regular post (I believe). But It is discussed in more detail at: Discourse 3 – Distorted Perceptions or Saññā Vipallāsa; see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.Your other points are correct.
However, I do not see why those are not consistent with the latest post, “Sakkāya Ditthi – Getting Rid of Deeper Wrong Views“.
Can you be more specific as to where the inconsistencies are? May be you can refer to certain bullet numbers in the post and point out why they are not consistent with any other post at the website.
Hello Lair (Lvalio),
diogorobert was just correcting a spelling mistake in his post (he spelled Sotapanna as “Sottapanna” by mistake).
By the way, one can correct such mistakes in the original post itself (by editing it). However, any revisions MUST BE done within an hour of the original posting. Otherwise, the post may get DELETED by the software that manages the forum!
Tobias wrote: “That is clear, Lal. What I mean is this: #3 says that ALL wrong views are removed with removal of sakkaya ditthi. But this is not the case. The Sotapanna still has wrong views e.g. about kama raga..”.
This is an important point that requires another post to discuss in detail. However, I have discussed it in a discourse about Tilakkhana; see below.
1. A Sotapanna has removed sakkya ditthi and thus ALL wrong VIEWS.
2. However, there are 3 types of “muddled views/perceptions/thoughts” called VIPALLASA (pronounced “vipallaasa”) about this world of 31 realms.
– Those are ditthi vipallasa, sannna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa.3. A Sotapanna has removed all 3 types of vipallasa about anicca and anatta nature.
– He/she has also removed ditthi vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature (in this analysis, asubha is also included in addition to Tilakkhana).
– Therefore, he/she has removed all types of DITTHI vipallasa.4. An Anagami has removed sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature. Kama raga and patigha are removed only when one removes sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature.
5. Only an Arahant has removed all three vipallasa about anicca, dukkha, anatta, and asubha nature.
This was discussed briefly in #12 of the post, “Ditthi, Saññā, and Sankhāra – How They Relate“.
It is discussed in more detail at: Discourse 3 – Distorted Perceptions or Saññā Vipallāsa; see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
Tobias wrote: “I would say, with the removal of sakkaya ditthi one removes the 10 types of micca ditthi…”
You may want to think about the following.
There are two eightfold paths, see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the post referred to therein.
– Also see, “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“.In brief:
– There are two eightfold paths.
– First, one needs to follow the mundane eightfold path and get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi.
– The deeper wrong views of nicca, sukha, atta can be removed and one can then comprehend the real nature of this world of 31 realms (only after one gets rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi); see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
– When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna and starts on the Noble Eightfold Path.June 22, 2019: Just published a relevant post: “Sakkāya Ditthi – Getting Rid of Deeper Wrong Views“.
Thank you, AxelSnaxel, for opening this topic.
I have presented some information in the following posts:
“Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years”
“Abnormal Births Due to Gandhabba Transformations”
“Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)”
“Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipiṭaka”
There could be more relevant posts. I just remember those offhand.
– It would be nice if someone reading the forum has had any such experiences (OBE, NDE, etc) and can provide an account of that experience.
@Christian: I am just curious. Which points of AxelSnaxel above do you not believe?This is a good question. It has been asked in different forms, and the following discussion at this forum last year provides some explanations:
“Can an arahant or sotapanna become a Buddha?”
We can discuss more if you or anyone else has more questions.
That is the logical conclusion, Tobias.
However, I am not 100% certain about that applying to devas. Devas have very fine bodies compared to humans, but those are “much more dense” than bodies of brahmas. Devas can utilize all five physical senses (but of course, we cannot directly compare their experiences to ours).
– We do know that human Arahants do live “in this world” until the death of the physical body and attain Parinibbana (full Nibbana or total dissociation from “this world of 31 realms”) only when the physical body dies and the gandhabba separates from it.
– But I do not recall “direct accounts” in the Tipitaka about devas or brahmas attaining Parinibbana upon attaining the Arahanthood. However, since the “body” of a brahma is just a few suddhashtaka just like a human gandhabba coming out of a dead human body, it is very likely that a brahma attains Parinibbana upon attaining the Arahanthood.
– On the other hand, I also have not seen any accounts about “Arahant devas or brahmas” in the Tipitaka either.“Things” or “events” in this world arise due to six root causes (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha).
– Lobha, dosa, moha lead to rebirths in the apayas (four lowest realms).
– Alobha, adosa, amoha lead to rebirths in human and higher realms.
– All those perpetuate sansaric journey (rebirth process), and thus binds one to suffering filled “this world of 31 realms”.Those are the causes. When those causes are removed nothing in this can arise, and one attains Nibbana.
There are no causes for Nibbana. That is why it is called asankata.
– Nibbana RESULTS when all six causes are removed by cultivating panna, i.e., by comprehending the true nature of this world.Cultivation of panna is not a cause. It is the Path to Nibbaba (via removing all six root causes).
Regarding Rishi’s comments: I may have left out some important facts about those “first humans” on this Earth. This sutta requires many posts to discuss various aspects.
1. Those “first humans” are called “brahma kayika” because their bodies were very fine. But they had the ability travel through air, see long distances, hear things far away, etc (basically like brahmas).
2. So, it is not possible to compare them to single-cell organisms. They had more capabilities than present-day humans.
3. Things started going “downhill” when old “bad gati” started to come back in those early humans. With them came more and more hardships.
4. After long times (probably hundreds of millions of years), they lost “free food” and had to grow food, for example.
5. Furthermore, their desire for sexual relationships also cam back, and that is when the bodies got denser and sex organs started to appear. That probably took a few billions of years, but that is just a guess. No precise times are given in the sutta. Always says, “after long times”.
6. Also, those with “very bad gati” started being born as animals gradually, again “after long times”. Same for beings in the other lower realms. They were all humans at the beginning.
7. Therefore, any animal, peta, asura, hell being today was a human in the beginning. Thus any single cell organism living today has gone through a “downward path”.
8. But of course, it is very likely that we had been in those lower realms too before moving up to born human again. Scientists estimate the age of the Earth to be about 4.5 billion years. That is a very long time! We are likely to have had births in most of the 31 realms many times over, especially in the lowest four realms.
These are things to think about carefully.
Yes. That is correct.
The post you referred to is a good one: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti”
