[Lal]

Upekkha wrote:In this site sankhara has been defined as THOUGHTS, even kaya sankhara. For example vaci sankhara is not the speech itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to speech. Kaya sankhara is not the bodily action itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to the bodily action.

So in “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha”, the “sankhara” does not include speech itself or bodily action itself? It just means thoughts? As in “all THOUGHTS are anicca” or “all THOUGHTS are suffering?”

It is not only at this site that sankhara are thoughts. Sankhara are thoughts, period.
– Many people just do not KNOW what sankhara are!
– Just saying “mental formations” does not give the idea, even though it is not incorrect. It just does not have an impact.
– We need to realize that what we think, speak, and do, ALL depend on our MINDS.

If someone says “sankhara are not thoughts” ask him/her to explain what sankhara are.

Yes. All sankhara are thoughts. It does not mean we have to think for a long time to do something. It just means any speech or action requires a thought that arises in the mind.

Some thoughts arise spontaneously due to our gati!
– But one can ALWAYS stop any speech or action even if it starts due to gati. Just try it!
– That is the basis of Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
– When we practice Anapanasati/Satipatthana, our gati will change. That is the idea!

[Lal]

I am glad that you have thought through this.

The verse that you quoted DOES NOT say that “sabbe sankhara LEAD TO dukkha.”
It just says, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” OR “All sankhara are suffering.”

So, “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara” are the types of sankhara that DO NOT lead to suffering. But one still has to strive to attain Nibbana. There is an EFFORT involved.

1. Those Paticca Samuppada (PS) cycles that lead to suffering ALWAYS start with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– Those sankhara that lead to suffering are defined in the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda ­Vibhaṅga: “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro“.
Translated: “What is avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, apuññā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, āneñjā­bhi­saṅ­khāra, kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, cittasaṅkhāra“.
– See #14 in the post: “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)”

2. Those PS cycles that lead to the end of suffering start with “akusala-mula paccaya sankhara.”
– These types of sankhara DO NOT belong to the above kinds.
– See, “Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada”

As I explained in my previous comment above, the difference between punnabhisankhara that LEAD TO rebirth (in good realms) and those that LEAD TO Nibbana is one’s comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta (or the Four Noble Truths or Paticca Samuppada.)
– Punnabhisankhara become “kusala-mula sankhara” with the comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta.

All posts on Paticca Samuppada at: “Paticca Samuppāda“

[Lal]

You are close, Sybe.

*kama asava can lead to existence in kama realms (four apayas, human, and six deva realms).
– When one does immoral actions to enjoy sensory pleasures, that lead to births in the apayas.
– kama asava goes away at the Anagami stage.

*bhava asava can lead to any existence. It is the desire to exist in a certain bhava or to attain a certain status. This goes away only at the Arahant stage.

*ditthi asava arises due to various wrong views. One can be born in the apayas due to wrong views.
– It goes away when one gets to Samma Ditthi, i.e., when one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami.

* avijja asava is due to the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (or Paticca Samuppada or Tilakkhana)
– It is removed in stages and is completely removed only at the Arahant stage.

[Lal]

See my posts on January 3rd and 4th, 2020 under the topic “Good Discourse on Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.”

[Lal]

Good comments/questions, Upekkha.

You wrote: “1) Am I correct in the analysis of how punnabisankhara and apunnabhisankhara lead to dukkha? Apunnabhisankhara leads to bad kamma which leads to bad kamma vipaka which causes dukkha/suffering. Punnabhisankhara leads to good kamma which leads to good kamma vipaka, but this good kamma vipaka will not last forever and has to end which will cause dukkha/suffering.”
– That is right.

You wrote: “2) I think I may have understood how apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara leads to suffering. But I can’t understand how neutral sankhara leads to dukkha. Neutral sankhara like drinking water or walking leads to neutral kamma with no future consequences, nothing good nor bad.”
– You are again correct that it is not easy to see how dukkha can arise from “neutral actions” that you mentioned. The key is to realize that one needs to first remove sufferings that are clearly seen at one’s stage on the Path.
– We need to look at this way. Anyone can clearly see the suffering that most animals go through. If one has faith in the Buddha, one will also believe that even worse suffering exists in other three apayas. Such rebirths occur due to apunnabhisankhara. They must be first stopped.
– As we can also see, there is suffering even in the human realm. A birth in the human realm is due to punnabhisankhara. As you mentioned, births in any realm end with death and suffering. So, suffering exists in ALL realms even if higher realms have relatively more “pleasures.” Thus the next step is to see the anicca nature and to see the fruitlessness of even punnabhisankhara.
– Anyone below the Anagami stage should really not worry about those “neutral sankhara.” There is the suffering associated with eating, drinking, and even breathing! All those take an effort, even though we do not think about it.
– One has to make a living to eat and drink. So, that is somewhat easier to see. But even breathing takes an effort. This can be seen when one gets to the fourth jhana samapatti and the breathing stops. That relief is seen at that time. This is why it is said that an Arahant looks forward to Parinibbana (death of the physical body.)

You wrote: “3) Same as above, I can’t understand how doing kusala kamma or doing Anapana could lead to suffering.”

– The key to realizing here is that punnabhisankhara are not the same as kusala kamma. Punnabhisankhara are punna kamma and lead to rebirths in “good realms.” Rebirth process is stopped with kusala kamma. So, real kusala kamma and correct Anapanasati (with the comprehension of anicca nature) lead to the stopping of the rebirth process (via four stages of magga phala).
– Of course, one MUST do kusala kamma and/or punna kamma (both come under “good deeds”). The first goal is to stay away from the apayas. In fact, before the Sotapanna (at least the Sotapanna Anugami) stage, most kusala kamma one does are only punna kamma.
– That is a bit of a deep point. When one does a punna kamma one may have at least a subtle expectation of a “good return” for that action. Punna kamma are the “good actions” done before grasping Tilakkhana. The same actions automatically become kusala kamma when one can “see” the unfruitfulness of rebirths in any realm (i.e., anicca nature).
– Some punna kamma AUTOMATICALLY becomes a kusala kamma when one gets to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Then as one makes progress, more and more types of punna kamma will become kusala kamma.

See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma“

[Lal]

Sybe wrote: “anicca – in the end, we can maintain nothing the way we like – is not difficult to see or understand but it is very difficult to live with, to really accept, to have peace in the heart with it.”

That is an important point.
– It is easy to “express in words” what is anicca.
– However, UNDERSTANDING is different.
– If one really understood what is meant by anicca, one would “drop everything and work towards stopping the rebirth process.”

One analogy that I can give pertains to smokers or drug addicts.
– They have read enough things about how bad those activities are.
– But they have not COMPREHENDED the consequences of such activities.

I had a friend who smoked and he and I had many discussions where I tried to persuade him to stop smoking. He was well-educated and knew all about the dangers of smoking. But he thought somehow he would be able to bypass such bad consequences.
– Later on, he had several surgeries to remove parts of his lungs. In the end, most of his lungs were gone and he was on oxygen. Then he died a miserable death.

Another example from the Tipitaka is where Ven. Ananda told the Buddha that Paticca Samuppada was easy to understand. But the Buddha admonished that Ven. Ananda was nowhere close to such an understanding. Of course, later on Ven Ananda attained the Arahanthood after comprehending it better.

By the way, Paticca Samuppada and Tilakkhana are inter-related.
– The Buddha said that “one who understands Paticca Samuppada understands Buddha Dhamma.”
– Therefore, it is a good idea to make sure one understands Paticca Samuppada.
– In essence, Paticca Samuppada explains how one makes one’s own future rebirths in different realms.
– This is why I am doing a systematic series of posts on that: “Paticca Samuppāda – Not ‘Self’ or ‘No-Self’“

[Lal]

Upekkha: Yes to both questions.

This is why some people are able to make progress faster than others. They have “cultivated the path” more in previous lives.

However, there is an important point to remember, and that is a key difference between a “soul” in some religions and an “ever-changing self” in Buddha Dhamma.

Consider the case of a person who makes some progress on the path in a given life.
– Since he/she has made progress (even if not attained a magga phala), it is likely that he/she will be born into a family with moral values in the next life. Then that progress will continue.
– However, if one is unfortunate (due to some specific kamma) to be born into a “bad family” in the next life, that environment can stop and even reverse some of the progress made in the previous life.

Of course, if one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugami, then one’s progress WILL NOT be reversed.

That is why we need to make our best effort in this life. Furthermore, it is essential to stay away from bad friends, associates and to associate with “moral people.”
– There is no “unchanging self.”
– One can be moral one day and become immoral due to bad associations at any time.

[Lal]

Yes. It is not easy to see “anicca Nature.” It takes a real effort, necessary background knowledge, moral conduct, and many other factors.
– Again, I am not talking about Sybe or anyone else in particular. This is a general statement that I have made in many posts.

This is why the Buddha had doubts about how many people can understand his Dhamma “that has never been known to the world.”

Whether one may grasp the Tilakkhana in this life or not, following even the mundane eightfold path will not go to waste. It is those who have cultivated the mundane path (where the 10 types of miccha ditthi are removed) that are able to comprehend Tilakkhana in this life and start on the Noble Eightfold Path. See, “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?“

[Lal]

I think the issue could be the following. I do not know anyone’s mind, so I cannot say Sybe’s case falls under this category.

One must follow the Path in a systematic way. There are two Eightfold paths.
– One must have completed the first mundane path and removed the ten types of miccha ditthi before starting on the Noble Eightfold Path. That means one should have the “right mindset” to be able to comprehend anicca, dukkha, anatta.
– If one has any of those ten “wrong views”, one’s mind is not capable of grasping Tilakkhana.
– For example, if one does not believe in kamma/kamma vipaka, then the whole basis of Tilakkhana falls apart. Such a mind would not accept anicca Nature to be correct.

This is explained in many posts. See, for example, “Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna Stage.”

Again, I am not saying that Sybe’s case falls under this category.

Another possibility is one may not have been able to make the “connection.” I suggest the video which I posted yesterday under a different topic.
“Good Discourse on Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta”

Please post any comments on that video under that topic.

[Lal]

This is a good topic to discuss.

Both PBR and Tien are stating their views as “they abide by them.”
– In fact, I think one needs to decide, based on one’s own situation, whether a statement that one is about to make is a “musāvāda” or not.
– Sometimes, a “lie’ is not a “musāvāda.’

In ALL CASES, what really matters is one’s INTENTION. The following example can illustrate the point.

10. During the Nazi terror in Germany, many Germans “lied” to the Nazis that they were not hiding Jews in their houses; of course the intention was to save human lives and thus it was the right thing to do. They acquired good kamma for protecting lives.

We need to realize that “lying” — as meant in as “musāvāda” in the five precepts — really means the “intention” involved: “Musā” means “wrong or incompatible with morals” and “vāda means “speech”; see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“.
Therefore, even though they were literally lying, their intention was not a “musāvāda“, but actually a “good deed”.

The above is #10 in the post, “Right Speech – How to Avoid Accumulating Kamma.”

[Lal]

lodonyo wrote: “Buddhas followers didnt earn money though…? Earning money in general seems to go against the very idea of ”giving without expecting anything in return”.

No. That is a misconception.
It is only bhikkhus who are not supposed to earn money (they are taken care of by the lay disciples.)

A layperson has to make money to buy food, clothes, medicine, etc. AND to sustain the family (if married.)

[Lal]

Upekkha asked:”What about idle chatter in sankappa when it is to yourself in your thoughts? Is idle talk immoral in sankappa too?”

Yes. As I have explained in the following post, both conscious thinking and speech are vaci sankhara.
“Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra”

The IMPORTANT thing to remember is that we do kamma with THOUGHTS.
– It is the javana power in THOUGHTS that have kammic power. Our speech and actions have origins in our thoughts. In other words, we think first and speak or take action next. But we may not realize that.
– I discussed this at a bit deeper level in the recent post, “Dhammā, Kamma, Saṅkhāra, Mind – Critical Connections“

[Lal]

Sybe07 has tried to post the following comment and was unable to. I am sorry about this persisting issue. Hopefully, the forum software team will be able to fix this issue soon. It seems to be an intermittent problem, since Sybe07 was able to post his original question above.

Sybe07’s comment:

Thanks Lal,
In SN35.245 en SN47.12 sati is compared to a gatekeeper who is wise and competent. I think this also says a lot.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.245/en/bodhi

[Lal]

Yes. Sati is another misinterpreted Pali word.

Sati means keeping the mind on a particular arammana. That can be good or bad.
– Miccha sati is keeping the mind on a defiled arammana, say, stealing something, sexual misconduct, etc.
– Samma sati is keeping the mind on moral thought objects. That can have a wide range from, say, thinking about giving to focusing on a deep Dhamma concept.

Samadhi is a related word that also has been misinterpreted.
– Miccha sati leads to miccha samadhi. Thus, one ‘s mind will focus on a misdeed or a wrong view.
– Samma sati leads to samma samadhi. Here, one’s mind will be focused on a moral deed or a concept.

Sybe wrote: “Thinking about this the thought of conscience came to mind.
A conscientious person is also concerned with keeping the mind clean, undefiled with immoral thoughts, speech and actions. He/she has a strong sense of moral shame and dread (two treasures).”

That is right. What you describe is samma sati.

[Lal]

I have revised the English translation that you provided. Hopefully, that will convey the meanings of the “seven treasures” better.

Upekkha asked: “By “Whoever, man or woman”, is this also referring to anariyas?”

Yes. Of course. It applies to ANYONE who is cultivating/accumulating these treasures.
– As one keeps building up on these treasures, one could become an Ariya.
– That process ends only at the Arahant stage.

The following is my version of the whole sutta.
– Feel free to ask questions.

“Bhikkhus, there are these seven treasures. Which seven? The treasure of Saddhā (faith), the treasure of sīla (moral conduct), the treasure of hiri (shame of wrongdoings), the treasure of ottappa (fear of wrongdoings), the treasure of suta (listening), the treasure of cāga (giving/generosity), and the treasure of paññā (wisdom).

“And what is the treasure of faith? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has faith in Buddha’s Awakening: ‘Indeed, the Buddha is worthy and rightly self-awakened, perfect in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, knower of this world, unexcelled as a teacher for humans and heavenly beings (Devas and Brahmas), fully-awakened, blessed.’ This is called the treasure of faith.

“And what is the treasure of moral conduct? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants (alcohol and drugs). This, bhikkhus, is called the treasure of moral conduct.

“And what is the treasure of shame of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple feels the shame of bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of shame of wrongdoings.

“And what is the treasure of fear of wrongdoings? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels fear of wrongdoings such as bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of fear of wrongdoings.

“And what is the treasure of listening? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has heard Buddha Dhamma (correct teachings), has retained what he/she has heard, has stored in memory what he/she has heard. Those teachings are perfect in the beginning, perfect in the middle, perfect in the end, that—in their meaning and expression—proclaim a virtuous life that is entirely complete and pure. This is called the treasure of listening.

“And what is the treasure of giving/generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in generosity, responsive to requests, delighting in giving. This is called the treasure of giving/generosity.

“And what is the treasure of wisdom? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has cultivated wisdom by learning true Dhamma and is following the path to end suffering. This is called the treasure of wisdom.”

These bhikkhus are the seven treasures.
The treasure of faith,
the treasure of moral conduct,
the treasures of shame and fear of wrongdoings,
the treasures of listening, generosity,
& wisdom as the seventh treasure.
Whoever, man or woman, has these treasures
is said not to be poor, has not lived in vain.

[Author]

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