Sakkāya Ditthi and Tilakkhana

Welcome! Forums Questions About Puredhamma Posts Sakkāya Ditthi and Tilakkhana

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #23666
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Reference post

      Under #3 it is said: ” … In the Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1), the Buddha discusses 60 more wrong views, but those are variations of the above two. Therefore, getting rid of sakkāya ditthi leads to the removal of all wrong views about this world…”

      I would say, with the removal of sakkaya ditthi one removes the 10 types of micca ditthi. Even after the Sotapanna stage one will have fine ditthis. With these one will still maintain e.g. kama raga or pathiga. There is a fine net of ditthis until the Arahant stage.
      Any thoughts?

    • #23669
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias wrote: “I would say, with the removal of sakkaya ditthi one removes the 10 types of micca ditthi…”

      You may want to think about the following.

      There are two eightfold paths, see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart” and the post referred to therein.
      – Also see, “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“.

      In brief:
      – There are two eightfold paths.
      – First, one needs to follow the mundane eightfold path and get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi.
      – The deeper wrong views of nicca, sukha, atta can be removed and one can then comprehend the real nature of this world of 31 realms (only after one gets rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi); see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
      – When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna and starts on the Noble Eightfold Path.

      June 22, 2019: Just published a relevant post: “Sakkāya Ditthi – Getting Rid of Deeper Wrong Views“.

    • #23682
      Tobias G
      Participant

      That is clear, Lal. What I mean is this: #3 says that ALL wrong views are removed with removal of sakkaya ditthi. But this is not the case. The Sotapanna still has wrong views e.g. about kama raga. That is why the Sotapanna still enjoys watching a movie or having a big ice cream. In other words, the Sotapanna has established samma ditthi to a basic level but not to full extend. That means there are still ditthis but these are subtle forms.

      In the same way you translate the sutta AN6.95 as: “A Sotapanna (or one with higher magga phala) accomplished in view (diṭṭhisampanno puggalo)…“, see #6. The term “accomplished in view” is used, which also means “perfect”. But a Sotapannas samma ditthi is not perfect but a basic level.

    • #23683
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias wrote: “That is clear, Lal. What I mean is this: #3 says that ALL wrong views are removed with removal of sakkaya ditthi. But this is not the case. The Sotapanna still has wrong views e.g. about kama raga..”.

      This is an important point that requires another post to discuss in detail. However, I have discussed it in a discourse about Tilakkhana; see below.

      1. A Sotapanna has removed sakkya ditthi and thus ALL wrong VIEWS.

      2. However, there are 3 types of “muddled views/perceptions/thoughts” called VIPALLASA (pronounced “vipallaasa”) about this world of 31 realms.
      – Those are ditthi vipallasa, sannna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa.

      3. A Sotapanna has removed all 3 types of vipallasa about anicca and anatta nature.
      – He/she has also removed ditthi vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature (in this analysis, asubha is also included in addition to Tilakkhana).
      – Therefore, he/she has removed all types of DITTHI vipallasa.

      4. An Anagami has removed sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature. Kama raga and patigha are removed only when one removes sanna vipallasa about dukkha and asubha nature.

      5. Only an Arahant has removed all three vipallasa about anicca, dukkha, anatta, and asubha nature.

      This was discussed briefly in #12 of the post, “Ditthi, Saññā, and Sankhāra – How They Relate“.

      It is discussed in more detail at: Discourse 3 – Distorted Perceptions or Saññā Vipallāsa; see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

    • #23695
      diogoroberto
      Participant

      Dear Lal,

      Sorry, but I get a little bit confused with your last post. Let me see, respectfully, if I understood:

      To achieve Sottapana stage one needs to:

      1. Walk the mundane eightfold path: get rid of ten dasa akusala (https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpretations/anguttara-nikaya/dasa-akusala-dasa-kusala-basis-buddha-dhamma)

      2. Get rid of ten basic micca ditthis (https://puredhamma.net/working-towards-good-rebirths/three-kinds-of-ditthi-eightfold-paths-and-samadhi)

      3. By compreending Anicca at some extend, get rid of three samyōjana (https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/seeking-nibbana/dasa-samyojana-bonds-in-rebirth-process/):
      a. Sakkaya ditthi, including uccheda (I am my body… vedanna, sanna, sankhara and vinnana) and sassata ditthi (my body is me, my body is in me, I am in my body… vedanna, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) (https://puredhamma.net/key-hidden-dhamma-concepts/anicca-dukkha-anatta-2/sotapanna-stage-and-tilakkhana/sakkaya-ditthi-deeper-wrong-views/)
      b. Vicikkica (not know what is right or wrong) (https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/key-to-sotapanna-stage-ditthi-and-vicikicca/)
      c. Silabbata paramasa (thinking following rituals led to liberation) (https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/key-to-sotapanna-stage-ditthi-and-vicikicca/)

      I apologise for any mistakes in my English.

      May you and all beings be happy and healthy.

    • #23697
      Lvalio
      Participant

      diogoroberto said: “Please read “Sotapanna”.

      So, what?
      There are many titles in the Forum with “Sotapanna”.
      What specifically you ask to read??
      Please!!

      Lair

    • #23698
      Lvalio
      Participant

      With Much Metta for all of you! May the blessings of the Buddha, Dhamma and Samgha be with all ofd you always!
      Thank you all very, very much!

    • #23699
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hello Lair (Lvalio),

      diogorobert was just correcting a spelling mistake in his post (he spelled Sotapanna as “Sottapanna” by mistake).

      By the way, one can correct such mistakes in the original post itself (by editing it). However, any revisions MUST BE done within an hour of the original posting. Otherwise, the post may get DELETED by the software that manages the forum!

    • #23700
      y not
      Participant

      Lvalio,

      Diogorbert is only correcting his having spelt Sotapanna as ‘Sottapana’

      I realized that just recently I myself mis-spelt the same word as ‘Satopanna’

      Metta to all.

    • #23701
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Hello diogorobert,

      It is not possible to write in a few posts all the details. So, it is possible that one may get a wrong impression by reading a post. For example, it is not correct to say that,
      “1. Walk the mundane eightfold path: get rid of ten dasa akusala”. The post that quoted does not say that a Sotapanna will not commit any of dasa akusala.

      – One must make a resolve to remove all dasa akusala. However, a Sotapanna has not removed all of them. Only an Arahant can totally abstain from dasa akusala.
      – The hardest of the dasa akusala to remove is miccha ditthi. This is done in many steps, and completed only at the Arahant stage. First, one removes the ten types of miccha ditthi via the mundane eightfold path. Then one removes sakkaya ditthi at the Sotapanna stage. But the wrong views/perceptions of nicca, sukha, atta nature are removed and the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature fully understood only at the Arahant stage.
      – I have not discussed nicca, sukha, atta as opposites of anicca, dukkha, anatta in a regular post (I believe). But It is discussed in more detail at: Discourse 3 – Distorted Perceptions or Saññā Vipallāsa; see, “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.

      Your other points are correct.

      However, I do not see why those are not consistent with the latest post, “Sakkāya Ditthi – Getting Rid of Deeper Wrong Views“.

      Can you be more specific as to where the inconsistencies are? May be you can refer to certain bullet numbers in the post and point out why they are not consistent with any other post at the website.

      • #23710
        diogoroberto
        Participant

        Hi Lal,

        Thank you for your kind reply. Your explanation clarified my doubts.

        Your site is consistent for me. I was verifying with you if I understood correctly your posts.

        I apologise for any mistakes in my English.

        May you and all beings be happy and healthy.

    • #23702
      Lvalio
      Participant

      Hi Diogoroberto!
      I apologize for my mistake. I didn’t realize it was the same person fixing your own mistake.
      And thank you very much, because your post gave me a key path to teach other people how to perform the State of Sotapanna. For me the key were the posts of Lal that I started reading in 2016. I had a real intuition because I started looking for a site in English (I’m Brazilian and I speak Portuguese, I live in São Paulo!) and I found two sites Pure Dhamma. And I researched a bit and then ruled out a.
      I was with Lal and don’t think it was just luck. The law of attraction has something to do with it.
      Lair

      • #23711
        diogoroberto
        Participant

        Hi Lair,

        You are welcome!

        May you and all beings be happy and healthy.

    • #23712
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I understand the desire (and anxiousness that goes with it) of learning about Tilakkhana. Of course, it is the goal of each and every Buddhist.

      Learning Buddha Dhamma (and especially Tilakkhana) is more like learning science/math than learning a natural arts subject like history or geography.

      In the latter case, one can just memorize specific events in the past or specific geographic information. Once one memorizes that bit of information, there is nothing more to learn there.

      In contrast, in math/science, one needs to understand concepts. Much more than memorization, one needs to be able to grasp key ides and then build on them. For example, one could memorize the standard multiplication table, and would then be able to answer questions on those exact multiplications that appear on the table: Thus, one would be able to answer that 3 times 5 is 15.
      – However, if one is asked how much is 3 times 16, one cannot provide the answer unless one intuitively understands how to multiply such larger numbers.
      – Thus, a teacher would have to first teach how such larger numbers can be multiplied using a certain technique. That technique CANNOT BE memorized. One just needs to understands the concept of multiplication of larger number.
      – Furthermore, one can keep extending one’s capabilities to higher and deeper levels. There is no “end point”!

      Having a basic knowledge that dasa akusala are bad is like memorizing the multiplication table.
      – Learning about anicca, dukkha, anatta nature is like learning how to do multiplication of any two random larger numbers.

      Just like multiplication of two random large numbers cannot be done just by memorizing the multiplication table, one cannot understand anicca, dukkha, anatta nature just by READING on what they are. The key ideas must be contemplated with examples from one’s own life.
      – I have written many posts on anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). It is not necessary to understand each and every one of them. There are many different ways that one can comprehend Tilakkhana. Some may understand some aspects and others may understand other aspects. I myself keep learning about new aspects and then I write about that aspect.
      – In that regard, discussions at the forum are very valuable. I wrote the past several posts after I contemplated and looked into deeper aspects of Tilakkhana, based on the topic, “what does ending of sakkaya ditthi really mean?“.

      Tilakkhana are fully understood only at the Arahant stage.
      – Until then we just need to do our best to further our understanding. So, don’t be discouraged if you do not understand all aspects (i.e., each and every post).
      – But each and every post will get you think in new direction or to further elaborate on a given aspect.
      – Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if a certain aspect is not clear. It is also possible that I myself have not fully understood that particular aspect. As I said, Tilakkhana are fully understood only at the Arahant stage.

    • #23719
      Tobias G
      Participant

      Please see #9: “…Translated: ‘And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity? …”

      Lal, you translate here “sakkā­ya­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā” as “the way leading to the cessation of identity”. Does it mean that sakkaya means identity? Thus sakkaya ditthi is still identity view or me-view or self view?

      As you say in #4: sakkāya is pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā. Thus ditthi here is the wrong view that the five khandha are good and beneficial which is part of ditthi vipallasa.

    • #23720
      y not
      Participant

      Hello Tobias,

      It seems to me that in the absence of ‘me-view or self-view’ (mana) ,sakkayaditthi (identity-view) would have no ground or basis to get established and nurtured. So even when sakkayaditthi is eliminated at the Sotapanna stage, only the so-to-speak ‘gross’ and even the less gross aspects of the mindset that ‘it is worthwhile and therefore beneficial to acquire things and attributes for oneself’ are eliminated – the much subtler desires for continued existence in the rupa and arupa lokas are not eliminated.

      I have not gone deep enough into this before I started typing, but that was my initial reaction. Certainly, there must be more to it.

      Metta

    • #23723
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Tobias wrote: “Please see #9: “…Translated: ‘And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity? …”

      I just revised that as follows to make clear that it is the “identification of one or more of the five aggregates as one-self that is sakkāya ditthi” (which is different from the saññā of a “me” or “māna” that is removed at the Arahant stage):
      “And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity with the five aggregates (sakkāya diṭṭhi)?”

      This issue is related to the three types of vipallasa; see my comment above on June 22, 2019 at 1:47 pm. To quote from there:
      “However, there are 3 types of “muddled views/perceptions/thoughts” called VIPALLASA (pronounced “vipallaasa”) about this world of 31 realms.
      – Those are ditthi vipallasa, sannna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa”.

      Getting rid of ditthi vipallasa of nicca,sukha, atta, subha happens at the Sotapanna stage with the removal of sakkāya diṭṭhi.
      – However, removal of “me” happens only at the Arahant stage with the removal of saññā of a “me” or “māna“.
      – In other words, a Sotapanna knows that it is not correct to take any of the five aggregates to be “me”, but he/she still has that perception (saññā) and it arises automatically (citta). This saññā vipallas and citta vipallasa are removed by contemplating on the anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha nature.

    • #23728
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Last night I watched the following video:

      James Tour: The Mystery of the Origin of Life

      This video provides the backgrounds for both ucceda ditthi (that there is nothing other than physical body to life and that life is ended with the death of the physical body) and sassata ditthi (that there is a soul surviving the death of the physical body, and that soul is eternal and was created by the Creator).
      – Even though most scientists have ucceda ditthi, James Tour has sassata ditthi.

      James Tour clearly explains why evolution cannot be true and that science CANNOT explains the origins of life.
      – At 39.50 minutes, he explains why it is not possible to take the physical body as “me”, because all the cells in the physical body are continuously re-generated (and scientists do not understand how the cells seem to be “programmed”).
      – Therefore, he concludes, that life was created by God, the Creator.

      Of course, he does not know about the third (and much deeper) possible explanation provided by the Buddha: That life has no traceable beginning and that a given “lifestream” is reborn in a wide variety of forms including human, animal, deva, brahma, etc.
      – Thus Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong, just like James Tour explains.
      – There is no need to resort to a Creator either. Everything can be explained in great detail with Paticca Samuppada. Of course that takes a lot of contemplation to grasp. It is the same “lifestream” that may be reborn a monkey or a human, for example.

      This video provides fundamental information that may help some of you to get a better understanding on how complex life is.
      – James Tour clearly explains the how science cannot even create a single cell (basic unit of life) in the laboratory despite claims made that “we are close”.
      – Science will NEVER be able to able CREATE life. It can create CONDITIONS for an existing lifestream (gandhabba) to get a physical body. That is what happened in the cloning experiments where sheep Dolly was cloned.

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.