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Siebe asked: “in which sense does that bad meditation you describe differ from sannavedayitanirodha?”
There is a HUGE difference between “saññā nirodha” that I described above and “saññāvedayita nirodha” that can be experienced ONLY by an Arahant who has cultivated ALL jhanas too.
– P.S. To get to saññāvedayita nirodha” an Arahant has to systematically go up through all the jhanas, and then get to saññāvedayita nirodha.” That is, in essence, the full experience of Nibbana. He/she can stay in that state for up to seven days.
– P.P.S In other words, in “saññā nirodha” thoughts arise without much of past memories. In saññāvedayita nirodha” thoughts DO NOT arise (like in full Nibbana after the death of an Arahant.)See (starting from #12) in the post, “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“
It is the “asanna bhavana.” In simple terms that means one removes ALL arammana (or thoughts about ANYTHING) that come to the mind.
– I know of some people who engage in this type of meditation.If properly cultivated, this kind of meditation will lead to memory loss. Since one is trying to remove all thoughts, all memories are lost too, after some time.
– The Buddha taught NOT to remove all thoughts, just the “bad thoughts.’
– One NEEDS to cultivate “good thoughts.” That is the correct Anapanasati meditation.I discuss this in the post, “Myths about Meditation”
– See, #3 there.I think you are referring to “Account of an Interesting Out-of-Body Experience.”
I refer to a video by the person who experienced it, Eben Alexander.
– He has also written a book “Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife” about that experience.Such experiences can vary a lot. Furthermore, it is likely that only “good experiences” are publicized.
– There is one common “good aspect” associated with a gandhabba. It is the fact that there is no “solid body” associated. One feels the “lightness” and move around at great speed.
– Another is that in all those accounts they “come back” to human life within a relatively short time. The frustrations that arise due to the lack of a “solid body” come when one realizes that one is unable to eat, smell, or have sex..
I came across the article below by Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu through an online discussion forum. This is really relevant to the current topic. Before one starts “meditating,” one needs to know what to meditate on! Furthermore, one needs to purify one’s mind to some extent by what we have been discussing in the comments above.
– I do not know Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu. I am providing his account to illustrate a serious misunderstanding that seems to be very common.
– It appears that he was doing the traditional breath meditation or something like that for many years without making much “progress.” That is the status of 99% of the people doing “Anapanasati meditation.”
– I feel very bad about the bhikkhu. He has spent years trying to attain Nibbana. But he has not understood what is meant by Nibbana in the first place. He is not alone in that. Most people engaged in “meditation” do just that. After ten, twenty years they get discouraged. I am amazed why takes such a long time to realize the futility of “breath meditation.”
– Einstein is widely credited with saying, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
– But the catch here is that one can definitely experience a “calm state of mind” from breath meditation. In some cases, some people who had cultivated jhana in recent previous lives can get into jhana with breath meditation too. However, even such jhanic states can be lost. If anyone has cultivated jhana and still has sexual cravings (while watching an adult movie), that is not an Ariya jhana. I think that is a very simple “test.” Anyone can figure out that. Furthermore, one DOES NOT need to cultivate jhana (Ariya or anariya) in order to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– Anyway, I would like to hear what others think about this issue. I think it is a very critical issue.
upekkha: I don’t think you have understood what I was trying to say.
Not doing akusala deeds is the first step.
You can also start doing the opposite. They are punna kamma.
– Instead of killing/hurting living beings, you show compassion for them.For example, we have a “bug cup” and a piece of cardboard at home, ready to use. When we see an insect in the house, we put the cup over it and slide the cardboard under the cup SLOWLY. Then we lift the cardboard and the cup together so that the bug is trapped there. Then we take it outside and release it.
– That is punna kamma.
– We don’t want insects inside the house. But rather than killing them, we can remove them. Even the lowest insect had been a human at one time. If we don’t show compassion to ALL living beings, we may end up as insects too. They are born as insects because of the bad deeds they had done.When we really start paying attention, we can come up with ways to make lives better for all living beings, but ESPECIALLY to humans.
It is not possible to “list” such actions. Those are “self-evident.”
– That principle needs to be applied to speech AND thoughts, as well as bodily actions.Speech and deeds RESULT from the way one THINKS.
– That is why Samma Sankappa (moral thoughts), Samma Vaca (moral speech), and Samma Kammanta (moral deeds) come right after Samma Ditthi (moral/correct) views in the Noble Path.Any action, speech, deed done with the correct views (Samma Ditthi) are “good kamma” or punna kamma.
Also see, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”
You have got me thinking about this important issue. I have been mostly focused on somewhat deeper concepts of Buddha Dhamma in the past couple of years.
– I had written posts on basic and NECESSARY concepts in the early years. I think I need to revise those early posts and to write some more.
– When I read online discussion forums, this issue is very clear. Most people either do not pay attention to the basics or they are not aware of them.
– But one CANNOT understand deeper concepts without first understanding AND living by the basic principles. I am glad that you pointed out that when you started this topic.Here are a couple of more of those early posts:
“What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”“The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them”
More at, “Moral Living and Fundamentals“
You are quite right, Tobias. I just revised that post and added new note 1.
The answer to your question is in the post (specificall # 11 there) referred to in Note 1. That post is:
“Kamma, Saṅkhāra, and Abhisaṅkhāra.”Please feel free to ask more questions if not clear.
Also, the forum software still has some bugs and they are working on it. You are likely to get a message saying, “This topic is pending moderation” when you submit a comment.
– I have to manually update the topic for it to show up. I try to refresh the forum page every few hours to catch them.
– If you like you can send me an email ([email protected]) and I can get it to quicker that way. If you do not see your comment published within a day, please do send an email to me.“What are a few examples of kusala kamma(actions that purify the mind)?”
They are opposites of the ten akusala kamma.
Instead of killing/hurting living beings, one needs to realize that they also like to live.
Instead of stealing from others, one should give to those in need.
Instead of engaging in sexual misconduct, one needs to live morally.
I provided a post on how to engage in “correct speech” earlier.
The most important is to avoid the three akusala done with the mind: control excess greed, anger, and most of all, to remove wrong views.
“Wrong Views (Miccā Ditthi) – A Simpler Analysis”Also, see, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, Sīla, Samādhi“
upekkha asked:
“1) So should we also suppress thoughts that involve assada/kama raga(thoughts about food, music, beautiful sceneries, an attractive person)?2) Do we need to suppress and Anapana assada/kama raga to get to Sotapanna stage?”
Both are not necessary.
– Kama raga is removed at the Anagami stage, as you said.We can look at it the following way, by what is accomplished at each stage of Nibbana.
1. A Sotappana (Anugami) removes the possibility of rebirths in the apayas (where suffering is maximum). He/she does that by realizing that such births originate due to strong akusala kamma.
– Killing a human, for example, is done with extreme anger. Such a strong kamma could lead to rebirth in hell.
– Having excess greed is a “peta gati.” A peta is a hungry ghost who cannot satisfy hunger.
– Raping or extreme sexual misconduct is an “animal gati.” Such actions could lead to rebirth as an animal.
– Depending on others (when is one fully capable of earning a living) is an “asura gati.” Such a lifestyle could lead to rebirth in the asura realm.That pattern of “rebirths due to gati” is explained in Paticca Samuppada.
2. One could live a moral life by not engaging in such extreme deeds, but as I have tried to explain in the recent posts, there may come a day when the temptation becomes so strong that one unable to “control oneself”.
– Even if one can get through this life not doing any of them, we do not know where the next birth is, even if reborn a human. If one is born to a “bad family”, then one could easily do such things.
– That is why it is also necessary to understand the “anicca nature” of this world. Again, that is what I will be going through the new series of posts.3. Once you make some progress, you may feel that craving for sensual pleasures decreases to some extent.
– That will become permanent with the understanding of the anicca nature.
– Of course, getting rid of “normal cravings” for food, sex, etc will not be removed at the Sotapanna (Anugami) stage.
– a Sotapanna (Anugami) is incapable of doing only those deeds with “extreme greed” or “extreme anger” or “extreme ignorance (moha)” as mentioned above. I discussed that to some extent in the post published today.Therefore, the bottom line is to make gradual improvements in the lifestyle, cultivate good thoughts and stop bad thoughts. At the same time, learning Dhamma is also critical.
– Those two things need to go together.“If I understand correctly, an impure mind has a more difficult time grasping concepts and concentrating during meditation.”
That is correct, upekkha.
– There are many people who try to read deep suttas and get to Nibbana. But they have defiled minds, like most average humans. So, their efforts mostly go to waste.I think you are making the right decision to start at the beginning. You will definitely see the truth of your above statement if you give enough time.
Initially, it may take some time. So, you need to give your best without thinking about the results day-to-day. Don’t be discouraged if you don’t notice any improvements over the first few weeks.
– The Buddha gave the following analogy. A farmer does not look for the results of his efforts each day. He plants the crops and takes care of them. With proper care, he WILL get the rewards for his labor in due time.From another perspective, it is like pushing a stalled car. It is hard to get it to move first. But once it starts moving, it becomes much easier.
I hope you will report your progress, even if you are not making much progress initially. You may get suggestions from others too.
Yes. You have a good understanding of Anapana.
You asked: “Are the following ways the correct way to do Anapana:
1) If I have an immoral thought, replace with moral good thought?
2) If I do immoral speech, replace with moral speech?
3) If I do an immoral bodily action, replace with a meritorious deed?”
Exactly right.
“4) For immoral speech and immoral bodily action, is it ok to replace them with good moral thoughts like a “may you always be safe” instead of replacing them with a moral speech and moral bodily action?”
Yes. That is a good start.
– As you do that, you will see that it is also good to engage in moral speech and moral deeds.
– Moral speech includes not only speaking kind words but also explaining to Dhamma to others or giving any kind of advice that can be helpful to others. See, “Right Speech – How to Avoid Accumulating Kamma”
– Moral deeds include giving to those who are in need, helping out those in need, etc (acts of kindness).
It is also necessary to stop associating with people with bad character and associate with people with good character: “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)“upekkha wrote: “This worries me. I have trouble understanding the Paticca Samuppada. All this time I thought it was mainly the Tilakkhana one had to understand.
Does one have to know the ins and outs in detail or is a general understanding fine?”Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada are inter-related. One cannot understand one without the other.
We need to understand the following facts:
1. Even a Buddha cannot change Nature’s laws. A Buddha just discovers them by his own efforts. He himself was subjected to Nature’s laws. He got old, was subjected to illnesses, and finally passed away.
– But he found the way to permanently stop any FUTURE suffering from arising. And he taught us how to do that.2. Attaining the Sotapanna stage (and stopping the suffering within a few lives after that) is an accomplishment that is infinitely better than any other achievement anyone can have. Understanding Nature’s laws is not an easy task.
– Think about how much effort a person puts into getting into a college or to get a job.
– Just like one cannot pass a high school test without going through years of learning at primary school, one needs to learn the basics first.Those are not directed personally to upekkha. Those are general statements. I have no idea where anyone else is at, with respect to their progress on the Path.
– Furthermore, I did not make those points to discourage anyone. I just wanted to point out the reality.
– Furthermore, any effort one puts in does not go to waste. Even if one cannot get there in this lifetime, it will help in future lives.
– In fact, that is why some people get there faster than others. They had done much work in past lives. So, it is not that some are “luckier than others.”I hope this explanation would help clarify some issues. Please feel to comment or ask questions. This is a concern that many people have.
Yes. Of course.
Paticca Samuppada explains how one can be born in different realms according to the vinnana that one cultivates via different types of sankhara.
You may want to read, “Gati to Bhava to Jāti – Ours to Control”
In the new series of posts, I am discussing Paticca Samuppada starting from the beginning:
“Worldview of the Buddha“y not: “the PS process, whether Akusala- or kusala- Mula, does not apply to an Arahant because he has seen the anicca nature perfectly.”
Yes. That is correct.
y not: Do you have a question or you are just making a statement? I thought you asked a question in your first post.
If there is a question, what is the question?
If you don’t have a question, you don’t need to respond to this comment by me.y not wrote: “It will perhaps be helpful to see the main idea that an Arahant will therefore not attach, even less draw closer, any of the khandhas, vinnana being their summation. So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”; and so we may continue..’ even via the kusala-Mula PS process’ ?”
That is not possible to explain in a forum reply. The idea behind writing this series of posts is to explain many things including the answer to your question of: “So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”
For the last time, it is explained at, “Worldview of the Buddha.”
I can answer any specific question on something that is not clear in those posts.
– If something is not clear, please quote from those posts and ask questions.As the Buddha himself said, he could do only so much. It is up to anyone interested to spend time and learn this Dhamma, “that has never been known to the world.”
Please don’t take me wrong. I am doing my best to explain things, and I am willing to take the time to explain any statements in a post that is not clear. But what you are asking is to explain a KEY CONCLUSION that arises out of a series of posts. It has already been explained. There must be a step earlier than that you could not understand. Let us try to get to that step.
