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y not: “the PS process, whether Akusala- or kusala- Mula, does not apply to an Arahant because he has seen the anicca nature perfectly.”
Yes. That is correct.
y not: Do you have a question or you are just making a statement? I thought you asked a question in your first post.
If there is a question, what is the question?
If you don’t have a question, you don’t need to respond to this comment by me.y not wrote: “It will perhaps be helpful to see the main idea that an Arahant will therefore not attach, even less draw closer, any of the khandhas, vinnana being their summation. So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”; and so we may continue..’ even via the kusala-Mula PS process’ ?”
That is not possible to explain in a forum reply. The idea behind writing this series of posts is to explain many things including the answer to your question of: “So “kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant”
For the last time, it is explained at, “Worldview of the Buddha.”
I can answer any specific question on something that is not clear in those posts.
– If something is not clear, please quote from those posts and ask questions.As the Buddha himself said, he could do only so much. It is up to anyone interested to spend time and learn this Dhamma, “that has never been known to the world.”
Please don’t take me wrong. I am doing my best to explain things, and I am willing to take the time to explain any statements in a post that is not clear. But what you are asking is to explain a KEY CONCLUSION that arises out of a series of posts. It has already been explained. There must be a step earlier than that you could not understand. Let us try to get to that step.
Johnny asked: “So, manō viññāna is synonymous to kamma viññāna. Does it mean vipāka viññāna can never be a form of manō viññāna?”
Manō viññāna can be vipaka viññāna OR kamma viññāna.
– Vipāka viññāna can be ALL SIX types: They arise via our six senses when a ārammana comes in via the six sense faculties: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and the mind, called cakkhu, sōta, ghāna,jivhā, kāya, and manō viññāna. Those six arise via “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.” through “mananñca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– Kamma viññāna can ONLY be mano viññāna. Kamma viññāna arise via “sankhāra paccaya viññāna.“ Those are manō viññāna generated in a PS cycle starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.”
See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”
As I said, one needs to understand the recent series of posts given in the above comment.
Siebe wrote: “But what is the nature in this very life of this unestablised vinnana, this vinnana that does not grow on rupa, vedana etc? Is it stable? Does it also arise in discrete moments?”
Such kamma viññāna created via the Akusala-Mula PS process do not arise in an Arahant.
– An Arahant experiences ONLY vipāka viññāna.Please take the time and read my above comments AND the posts suggested carefully. This is not something one just reads and understands. One must take time and think.
– I know that many of you do not take the time to read the suggested posts, and just read a post and move onto something else. There is nothing I can do about that. Buddha Dhamma is deep and takes some effort to understand.Anyone truly interested in uncovering this whole process needs to carefully go through the series of posts at: “Worldview of the Buddha.”
– It is explained systematically there. Furthermore, if one does not understand those posts, one will not be able to understand the future posts.There are vipāka viññāna and kamma viññāna.
Vipāka viññāna are six types: They arise via our six senses: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and the mind, called cakkhu, sōta, ghāna,jivhā, kāya, and manō viññāna.
– The viññāna is discussed in the sutta is NOT those. Those six types of viññāna remained for even the Buddha. He could see, hear, etc.What is discontinued at the Arahanthood is the kamma viññāna that arises via “sankhāra paccaya viññāna.“ Those are manō viññāna generated in a PS cycle starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.”
This is why it DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE to translate different types of viññāna as just “consciousness.” It is very important to understand this point.
See, “Viññāna – What It Really Means.”
This was also pointed out in the post recent post, “Tanhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paticca Samuppāda,” even though I may not have emphasized it.
The keyword in this sutta is “upaya.” It is closely related to the word “upādāna.” As I mentioned in the new post today, “upa” means “keeping close.”
– The word upaya means “having upādāna for the worldly things.”
– See, “Tanhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paticca Samuppāda”The first phrase itself is highly condensed. “Upayo, bhikkhave, avimutto, anupayo vimutto“.
– Therefore, it means: “Bhikkhus, one who is attached (to this world or the aggregates) is not liberated; one who is not attached (who has removed tanhā) is liberated.Then the sutta states that separately for the four aggregates: rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.
Next verse: Because one is attached to rūpa, one craves for rūpa, and one highly-values rūpa, the (kamma)viññāṇa grows and gets established.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.Then the next verse says: “Bhikkhus, without such attachment and craving for rūpa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra it is not possible for viññāṇa to grow, get established, and to bring rebirth.
“Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned craving for rūpa, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishment of (kamma)viññāṇa.
– Then the verse is repeated for vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra.Final verse: “When that (kamma)viññāṇa is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, one is liberated. By being liberated, his mind is steady. By being steady, he is content. By being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is rebirth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this existence.’”
I am reproducing the whole sutta translation that Siebe has referred to below. I am doing this to illustrate the fact that it does not serve any purpose to translate some deep suttas word-by-word. Can anyone understand what is meant by the following translation? Please feel free to state what you think the following translation means. I am working on the new post and may not be able to comment for a day or two.
53. Involvement
At Sāvatthī.
“Mendicants, if you’re involved, you’re not free. If you’re not involved, you’re free.
As long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with form, supported by form, founded on form. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.
Or consciousness would remain involved with feeling …
Or consciousness would remain involved with perception …
Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.
Mendicants, suppose you say: ‘Apart from form, feeling, perception, and choices, I will describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity.’ That is not possible.
If a mendicant has given up greed for the form element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness.
If a mendicant has given up greed for the feeling element …
perception element …
choices element …
consciousness element, the support is cut off, and there is no foundation for consciousness. Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.
Being free, it’s stable. Being stable, it’s content. Being content, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
AxelSnaxel was unable to post the following comment in reply to TripleGemStudent’s above. He has asked me to post it. His comment is below:
“Yes, that is exactly what it is. It’s great and we regularly have English dhamma talks there. It’s been immensely helpful on my path.
We even have a small group for monthly Skype sermons with Amadassana Thero himself.
Hope to see you there
https://discord.gg/A7gAS8x”Siebe asked, “So, my question is in fact; where in PS do asava arise?”
Asava is closely associated with gati. “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Asavas)”
When an attractive (or repulsive) arammana (thought object) is encountered, one starts thinking about how to enjoy it more (or how to get rid of it) PURELY based on that vedana (like/dislike).
– Those thoughts are sankhara. One may think about doing akusala kamma to enjoy that arammana more. That is when one starts acting with avijja, “avijja paccaya sankhara.”On the other hand, if one did not have such deeply-embedded cravings (defilements), then one would not do such akusala kamma.
– That is the same as saying not having “bad gati.”One gets rid of such asava or gati by learning Buddha Dhamma, and realizng the bad conseuqences of doing akusala kamma.
Another point to note is that one does not arbitrarily start doing akusala kamma with “avijja paccaya sankhara”
– An attractive (or repulsive) arammana must be there to “trigger those asava or gati“.
– Therefore, the whole process of “acting with avijja” (or “generating sankhara with avijja“) really starts at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in PS.
– That is what I discussed in the last post or two in recent posts. See, #6, #7 in the recent post, “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)”
– I will discuss this more in the upcoming posts.Christian wrote: “Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to Anariya jhanas” – from post Ariya jhanas – power of human mind.
Now I started to doubting it. In the suttas even Buddha (before dying) goes into jhanas so if for Buddha does are not permanent so how it can be for Anagami and Arahant?”
I think this could be a misunderstanding of what is meant by “permanent.”
– When I say “Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to anariya jhanas”, I do not mean an Ariya would be permanently in a jhanic state.
– It means when one cultivates an Ariya jhana one will be able to get into that jhana anytime one wishes. That ability does not go away even in future lives.
– One would be an Anagami if one can get to the first Ariya jhana, because one would have REMOVED kama raga. An Anagami would not be in a jhanic state at all times. Rather he/she would be able to get to that jhana any time he/she wishes.
– When an Angami dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm. That is a “permanent jhanic state”.On the other hand, people who cultivate anariya jhana can lose the ability to get into that jhana even during this lifetime. As I have mentioned before, Devadatta was a good example. He had cultivated highest anariya jhanas AND supernormal (iddhi) powers too. But he lost all that and was reborn in an apaya.
Did I address your question or did you mean something else?
sumbodhi asked: “Is it a way to recognize what’s chanted are words said by the Buddha?”
I think it is used to close out a statement made by anyone. I could be wrong. I guess we need to look at its occurrences in the Tipitaka to see whether that holds.
TripleGemStudent: “Just wondering what’s this “Christians Discord server?”
Christian is a person who posted some videos in the link that I provided above.
Thank you, Axel.
I have heard very good things about Abhaya Theros retreats. Christian has posted some videos on testimonials from retreat attendees from the past retreats at, “Personal Experiences.”
I have met Abhaya Thero a couple of times in my visits to Sri Lanka in 2014 and 2016. Even though I did not get to meet Waharaka Thero (due to his illnesses), I was able to meet Abhaya Thero and Sudithadeera Thero. They provided me with many recorded discourses of Waharaka Thero and were very helpful. They have, of course, made those discourses available at “සදහම් දේශනා” (in Sinhala)
– When I first met Abhaya Thero in 2014 he was not yet ordained. He was an engineer. So, he has a good background in science as well.
– He has a unique ability to get others to samadhi with his unique style. Those who had cultivated jhanas in recent previous lives are able to attain jhana in a short time (during a retreat).The only reservation I have about Abhaya Thero’s retreats is the emphasis on jhanas. It is, of course, a great thing to cultivate jhanas. But as I have discussed at length on this website, it is important to make note of the following two points.
1. It is not easy to distinguish between anariya and Ariya jhana. Only the person who experiences jhana would know whether kama raga are only suppressed (anariya jhana) or removed (Ariya jhana). As Waharaka Thero has also pointed out, one must remove kama raga to attain even the first Ariya jhana. I have a discourse from Waharaka Thero on that point in the post, “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro.”
– I have also discussed these issues in detail at, “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”2. Jhanas are not necessary to attain magga phala. Those who are not able to attain jhana in a retreat need not be discouraged. What is important is to grasp the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature. Abhaya Thero does a good job of explaining those concepts at the beginning of the retreats.
P.S. New post for this week is, “Vacī Saṅkhāra – Saṅkappa (Conscious Thoughts) and Vācā (Speech)“
