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Yes. The translation could be better.
The gist of the sutta is the following:
It is not possible for average humans to judge the spiritual attainments of another person. Only a Buddha can do that.Especially a lower magga phala (like Sotapanna or Sakadagami) depends on just the UNDERSTANDING of the unfruitful nature of this world and the danger of craving for things in this world. They have removed “DITTHI vipallasa” or “confusion about WRONG VIEWS.”
– But even that person may not know that in a few cases.
– Only a Buddha can see whether one has that understanding.However, a Sotapanna or a Sakadagami has NOT removed the sanna for sensory pleasures (that is why they are reborn in kama loka). In other words, he/she may UNDERSTAND that those are not worth pursuing. But they just cannot help enjoying sensory pleasures. That means they have not removed the “SANNA vipallasa”. That means “confusion on PERCEPTIONS about wrong/unfruitful activities”.
– When one substantially removes this sanna vipallasa, one WILL know that one has attained the Anagami stage. That is because one will no longer have cravings for tasty food, sex, etc.
– Even then other people would not know.This is actually related to a question that you had asked before, I think, regarding the Sabbasava Sutta.
– Ditthi vipallasa is removed at the Sotapanna stage. Then sanna vipallasa decreases as one goes through higher stages and is completely removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, sanna vipallasa about sensory pleasures (kama raga) is removed at the Anagami stage. That is why it is self-evident to THAT person, not to others.Yes. It is a good desana. As I remember, it does provide references to suttas with the statement, “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti“.
– That includes the requirement of “listening to saddhamma or correct Buddha Dhamma“.A couple of such references are provided in the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” too.
In fact, many suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṃyutta SN (55)” of the Samyutta Nikāya discuss all four conditions required to attain the Sotapanna stage.
What I referred to in the reply to your first post on this topic above is the following:
– I am not aware of a TIpitaka REFERENCE that SPECIFICALLY says that Sotapanna PHALA CITTA is attained ONLY WHILE listening to an Ariya.
– See #3 of the post regarding this point. “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”If there is such a reference in the above desana of Ven. Abhaya, please get that reference from your friend and post it here. We all would appreciate that.
I hope you are having a productive time in Sri Lanka.
Thank you for the information, y not!
I was not aware of this information.
Some relevant information: This account is from “Milinda Panha“, which is a later addition to the Tipitaka.
– It is an account of a series of questions by a Greek King Milinda who ruled parts of India a few hundred years after the Buddha. The answers were provided by an Arahant named Nagasena.
– King Milinda was a Buddhist and had regular question and answer sessions with Ven. Nagasena.
– “Panha” means “questions”, so “Milinda Panha” means “Questions by Milinda”.
– The link provided by y not has English translations of those questions and answers.Thanks for letting us know, AxelSnaxel!
It would be nice to hear from you on any significant findings or the progress you make. Have a safe and successful trip!
Thank you for the suggestion. I will add it to the “to do” list. But I need to first finish the “Origin of Life” series.
Welcome to the forum, Paramitas!
We can get the basic idea by looking at existence in other realms. That gives a better perspective.
Everything happens due to causes and conditions. Each of us has been born due to a specific kamma vipaka.
– For example, a given animal is born due to a (bad) kamma vipaka. But a deva is born due to a good kamma vipaka.An animal cannot even sort out moral from immoral. A deva could, but the presence of so much “pleasures” prevents a deva from thinking about the possible suffering that can come for him in future births.
An ahetuka birth is much better than an animal birth but much worse than a dvihetuka or a tihetuka birth in the human realm.
– An ahtuka person does not have the mindset to comprehend Tilakkhana.
– But he/she can sort out moral from immoral and engage in meritorious deeds. That can lead to a better birth in the future, where one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.A dvihetuka person is in a better place. Even though he/she cannot comprehend Tilakkhana, he/she can make much more progress than an ahetuka person. That makes it much easier to get a Tihetuka birth in the future.
Because of the high-grade kamma that led to this birth, a tihetuka person is BORN with the necessary wisdom to comprehend Tilakkhana. Of course, one must make the effort.
On the other hand, an animal is in a very bad place. It is unable to do anything on making progress. It has to wait until a good kamma done in the past to come to the “front of the line” to get any kind of human birth. This is why births in the apayas make one helpless in the rebirth process. That is what is meant by anatta, becoming helpless.
Therefore, a human is better off with any type of birth than most living beings in other realms. We just need to do our best. Results WILL come according to the efforts.
More details at “Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gati”
– I just revised that post.P.S. Each of levels ahetuka, dvihetuka, and tihetuka also can be sub-divided into three categories: low, medium, and high. For example, a tihetuka birth at the highest level has a much higher level of wisdom, etc.
“So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)
Is this correct?”
Not really. The progress cannot be measured just in terms of “change of bhava”.
– One may have not reached the next destination, but one may have covered a significant portion of that distance. That is an analogy.Lang asked, “Is it correct to say that a Sotapanna Anugami is one who has attained sotapatti magga, and that a Sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti phala?”
There is some confusion because of the terms used.
1. One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (one on the way to become a Sotapanna) when one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi, learns about the correct Tilakkhana, and has STARTED comprehending those Tilakkhana.
2. When that person makes progress in the comprehension of the “unfruitful nature of this world”, at some point he/she would complete that phase and actually become a Sotapanna.
– At that MOMENT, two CONSECUTIVE citta flow through his/her mind, the Sotapanna MAGGA CITTA, and the Sotapannna PHALA CITTA. At that INSTANT, he/she becomes a Sotapanna.The confusion comes when the difference between those two things is not understood.
This can be further clarified by the following. That Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.
– Here, one does not even need to know that one has become a Sotapanna. As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.
– Then one actually BECOMES a Sakadagami when one goes through the Sakadagami magga citta followed by the Sakadagami phala citta (that is a higher level of comprehending Tilakkhana).
– That is how there are EIGHT Noble Persons. Each Nibbanic stage (Sotapnna to Arahant) is associated with two “Noble Person states”.P.S. Just yesterday I revised the following relevant post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“
That just means a Sotapanna Anugami (or higher) will never lose the Ariya (Noble Person) status, Tobias.
Once born an Ariya (i.e., becomes a Sotapanna Anugami), one will not go back to an “average human” (puthujjana) status. That is why it is in quotes in “never “die”.
– Of course, there will likely be one up to many “physical deaths” until the Arahant stage is attained.
– But he/she is free of the apayas forever.
– Pu it in another way, one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi and has started seeing the anicca (and dukkha and anatta) nature of this world.” Are the internal rupa (pasada rupa) always ayatana even when just seeing an object (vipaka vinnana)?”
I was thinking about how to handle that. It is not a clear-cut issue and that is why I did not address it (I can write only so much in a given post). I will discuss this in more detail in the next post.
We can say for sure that an Arahant will use pasada rupa as indriya at ALL TIMES.
A normal human may or may not use a given indriya as ayatana. But it happens often. Furthermore, indriya becomes ayatana in varying degrees, depending on how strong the sensory attraction is.
– Even for the same external object, two people will “get attached” in different degrees. One may “fall in love” with a given woman, but another may just be attracted. A third person may not even be attracted. It is relative.“It will be impossible, because ‘inhumane’, to stop those ‘mind-made’ somanassa vedana from arising – UNLESS one has reached the Anagami stage.”
Yes. That is true.
– It is done by cultivating panna (wisdom).
– Even a Sotapanna only KNOWS that such ‘mind-made’ somanassa vedana are bad. But until he/she comprehends the next level of Tilakkhana, such thoughts WILL arise.
– That is why attaining the Anagami stage is so hard. No one said it is easy.The Path needs to be followed step-by-step. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
– Also read, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda”Please read the posts that recommend. I cannot write everything in a single post. So, I provide links to other posts. This is a general comment to everyone.
Johnny wrote: “Say an arahant is served some tasty food. Would the arahant think that the food that he is consuming is delicious?”
Yes. I have emphasized this many times. See, for example, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda“.
– I recommend reading the above post carefully.
– But an Arahant would not get attached to that taste, and crave for more. That is not by will power. That is through understanding. This is a hard point for many to understand.“On the other hand, if some wicked person wants to test the arahant by serving him rotten food, would the arahant think the food that he just tasted is terrible or even unfit for consumption?”
– Yes. An Arahant would taste bad food as such.I think your questions will have answers in the above post. Please ask questions if something is not clear.
– Saltiness, sweetness, bitter, etc are applicable to all with human bodies. They are called kama guna.y not wrote: “Now going back to the instance of that brahmin and his wife, surely their exclamation, on SEEING the Buddha ‘where have you been, my son, all this time’ was made with vedana, and very strong vedana at that (somanassa, in this case). And the connections via relation lay in the deep past (vipaka) – the furthest as far back as 1,500 lifetimes, if the ones when they had been uncle/aunt and grand-father/mother are included. This does not accord with : “Vedana coming through the other four physical sense inputs are neutral. Any pleasant or unpleasant vedana that we may experience are ALL mind-made, and NOT due to kamma vipaka”.
There is no contradiction.
When they recall their past lives, the “vipaka vedana” that comes with the “vipaka vinnana” is neutral.
– But then they start generating MIND-MADE pleasant vedana (called somanassa vedana) based on that recalled memory.Only bodily vedana (felt by the physical body) due to vipaka vinnana can bring sukha (or dukha).
So, the key is to distinguish between the following:
– sukha/dukha vedana that can arise due to kamma vipaka are felt only by the physical body. They can be body pains, injuries, cancer in the body, etc.
– Somanassa/domanassa vedana are both mind-made. They arise when one starts “mentally enjoying/worrying” about some event.It is important to realize that somanassa/domanassa vedana will arise immediately following the recalling event. So, it may appear that they are intrinsically due to the recalling of the event.
– One needs to think about the mental state of the person recalling the event. The Buddha, of course, recalled the same event but did not form any somanassa/domanassa vedana.This is somewhat relevant to the new post today, “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna”
Invo wrote: “Goenkaji teaches that eradication of kamma beeja as essential part of the practice and he puts great emphasis upon that.”
If anyone can give me a reference from the Tipitaka that Arahanthood can be attained by eradication of kamma beeja, I would appreciate it. As far as I know, there is no such statement, or even implication, in the Tipitaka. Arahanthood is attained by the removal of greed, anger, and ignorance from one’s mind. When one does that any existing kamma beeja will become non-effective.
– We need to highlight such false claims. They lead to the spreading of bad impressions about Buddha Dhamma, and can set many people back on their progress on the Path.Invo wrote: “I understand anicca, dukkha, anatta of 31 completely. I believe my samma ditthi is complete and EXPERIENCED.”
– I am glad to hear that. Your description above that sounds very good.
– In your earlier post you mentioned that you are writing your Ph.D. thesis on Jhanas. You may find some information on Tipitaka references at “Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala” and “Power of the Human Mind“
Please direct any questions on the new post, “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna” here.
