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Good question, hojan.
The fundamental difference between ‘nirodha samāpatti’ and ‘phala samāpatti’ is the following.
In nirodha samāpatti, there is no flow of citta, and the mind is not even in the bhavanga state. One is “not in this world” during that time and that is the closest to experiencing Nibbana.
– Of course, only an Arahant who has cultivated all jhana can get to nirodha samapatti.
– Just before getting to nirodha samāpatti, one is at the “neva sanna na sanna” stage and only a trace of sanna is left there. Then one makes a determination of how long to be in the nirodha samāpatti and enters nirodha samāpatti.One who is in a phala samapatti has citta flowing with that “phala citta.”
– That is very similar to the uninterrupted flow of “jhana citta” for one in jhana samapatti. That is discussed at the end of the post “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs.”
– One who have cultivated jhana can get into jhana samapatti, but NOT nirodha samapatti.There was a long discussion on the subject sometime back: “Difference between “Arahant phala samapatti” and “Nirodha samapatti” ?”
Yes. I will try to do that in the future.
However, there are English translations of several suttas that describe Buddha’s teachings on the lowest realms.
– Since such suttas can be direct word-by-word translations, there is actually no need for me to translate such direct teachings.Here are a couple:
Paṭhamanirayasagga Sutta (AN 10.211)
– This gives two translations. They should not be that different.It is important to remember that the Buddha realized that it is very difficult for average people to even visualize how life in those realms can be. Thus he emphasized that he would not teach anything that he had not experienced for himself.
– He would not even provide accounts that could not be corroborated by at least one of his disciples. Once Ven. Moggallana saw some petas (pretas) who had such subtle bodies that other bhikkhus with abhinna powers could not see. Then Ven. Moggallana asked them to check with the Buddha. The Buddha said he had indeed seen those petas right after his Enlightenment, but did not tell anyone because they would not be able to see.
– Our world of 31 realms is very complex. It is enough to get a general idea and to have some faith in what the Buddha taught BASED ON his other teachings that we CAN confirm for ourselves.Hi Johnny,
You said, “I have an impression that when something is quantized, it tends to have a fleeting nature.”The part about “fleeting nature” is a misinterpretation. I see that all the time.
For example, a suddhāṭṭhaka (created by the javana power) can last billions of years, until destroyed at the end of a Maha Kappa (i.e., when the Solar system is destroyed.)
The main idea that the Buddha tried to teach was that anything “material” changes even momentarily (but that “momentary change” can be very small.) For example, our bodies undergo momentary changes, but we can see “significant changes” only over the years.
– Furthermore, things can change unexpectedly over time. That is the “viparinama nature.”Of course, our thoughts (citta) change very rapidly. It is appropriate to say that thoughts have a “fleeting nature.”
Good observation, Johnny!
” If I understand correctly, even citta is quantized. So, can I safely assume that there is nothing in this world that is truly analog in nature?”
Not only citta, but “matter” is quantized too. The smallest unit of matter is a suddhāṭṭhaka. See, “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
We can safely say that the Buddha was the first scientist to point out the “quantum nature.”
Cubibobi (Lang) asked: “Does anyone know the Pali breakdown of the word niraya?
The Pali root “ra” means “to enjoy.” For example, “rāga” comes from “ra” + “agga” where “agga” means foremost. Thus kāma rāga means putting a high-value on “kāma” or sensory pleasures.
Niraya comes from “ni” + “ra“, where “ni” indicates without. Thus niraya means “where any enjoyment is absent.”
– That is why niraya (hell) is the lowest realm. Even animals enjoy life sometimes. The animal realm is the “best” of the four. The preta (or peta) and the asura realms are in between (as far as suffering is concerned.)Yes. Until the gandhabba dies at the end of the human bhava (existence) another existence (preta, animal, Deva, etc) cannot be grasped.
Cubibobi (Lang) has sent me the following comment to post. Apparently, he could not post it. The software bug is random since he has been able to post other times. Please keep a copy when you post and send it to me ([email protected]) if you have problems.
Hi,
Does anyone know the Pali breakdown of the word niraya?
I struggled with the notion of hell for quite some time, and came to terms with it to some degree fairly recently.
I used to have serious doubt about a human being reborn as an animal, let alone a hell being, so I set it aside; and the sources I was studying just glossed over the picture of the 31 realms.
Because of that, I also just glossed over the 31 realms when I came to puredhamma.net; I was most excited about learning the true meanings of anicca, dukkha, anatta. However, reading more and more, it’s hard not to miss Lal’s emphasis on reaching the sotapanna stage to be free from the apāyā, and I realized that I needed to get over this hurdle.
On the upside, being open to the possibility of rebirth in the apāyā is like getting a kick in the rear end to awaken to the law of kamma as nothing else could.
Many thanks to Lal for continually reminding of the dangers of the rebirth process because of the apāyā. A number of Buddhist traditions, as Johnny_Lim pointed out, put more importance of hell and heaven as mental states than actual destinations of rebirth. They like to tell the story of the Zen master and the samurai; one such version is here:
Best,
Cubibobi: The post that you read could be one of the following two posts:
“What is a Thought?” or “Chachakka Sutta – No “Self” in Initial Sensory Experience.”Thanks for the update, Axel!
You wrote: ” Luckily I have good contacts since my last visit so I will get a lot of help.”
I get requests for such information. It would be very helpful if you can provide more details here, if possible.
– If you think it is better not to publicize for some reason, please email me: [email protected]
– I will use that information as needed.That is right. We can consider the following analogy.
Most of us have not been to Africa. But do any of us have doubts about the existence of Africa?
– There is overwhelming indirect evidence for the existence of Africa.It is the same with the existence of hell or Deva/Brahma realms.
– As one learns Buddha Dhamma, one will be able to verify by “indirect means” the validity of the existence of those realms.
– One needs to start getting rid of wrong views with basic concepts like kamma/kamma vipaka and rebirth. Just keep an open mind and look at the evidence.
– Such fundamental truths INEVITABLY lead to the conclusion of the existence of the 31 realms, gradually.I am glad to hear that, Lvalio!
It is a good idea for all to understand those posts, at least the first two.
For example, the moment after we see something, it goes to our memory. Same with a sound that we hear. We hear it and it is gone (except that it is registered in the memory.) Same for smells, tastes, and bodily touches.
– Thus, rupakkhandha is almost all memories.Of course, there are rupa out there in the external world.
– But rupakkhandha is what each person has seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched.
– So, there is a difference between rupa (which are sankata) and rupakkhandha (which is what each person has experienced.)Think about that!
The other four (vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha) are easier to see.
– Thus the five aggregates are all mental.Tobias wrote: “Thus Nibbana is not another realm.”
Exactly. One is either in this world of 31 realms OR has attained Parinibbana.
– A living Arahant is still in this world. After his/her death he/she will LEAVE this world of 31 realms and merge with Nibbana. That is what is meant by “Parinibbana” or “full Nibbana.’Sybe07 has sent me the following comment. He was unable to post it. Apparently, the software bug randomly causes problems!
Here is Sybe07’s comment.
Hi Yann,
The following sutta’s treath differences in rebirth between noble persons and not noble ones: AN3.116, AN4.123-126
https://suttacentral.net/an3.116/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an4.123/en/sujato (click next button to read the rest)Regarding your second question:
As i understand it from what i have read, lifespan in a certain realm is based on a certain (limited) kammic energy. When this is spend, a transformation takes place to another bhava (lifeform) at the cuti-patisandhi moment. From death to a new rebirth/bhava.
So, when the positive kamma in those deva or Brahma realms is spend, and life ends in those realms, it is said, negative latent tendencies, still present in a not-noble mind, activate. They surfice automatically near the end of the lifespan and become at death a condition for rebirth in lower realms.
That’s why only doing good is, in the end, not liberating. The existing anusaya or latent tendencies in the mind must be uprooted too, or, in other words, mind has to be purified to the extent that there are no conditions anymore for rebirth in lower realms.
If this does not take place, it is to be expected that those bad anusaya will surfice at the end of a life in a relative happy realm and will drag one down at the end of that lifespan.
As i have understood, especially wrong views and strong greed and hate become conditions for rebirth in the lower realms. In a noble person (or better in a noble mind) there are no wrong views anymore and lobha en dosa is strongly reduced. So there are no causes anymore who can drag one down in the apaya’s after living as a human, deva or Brahma.
So the purification of the mind is the crucial point and explains the difference in rebirth as mentioned in de above sutta’s.
Yann: “i mean mankind wasn’t alway around, man existed for less than a million year,.”
You have not read what I wrote and tried to explain. This cannot be explained in a single post. If you need to find out, it is necessary to read the recommended posts.
Let me try to explain it a bit more.
– Our planetary system with the Earth will be destroyed in a few billion years.
– By that time, not only humans but all living forms on Earth (animals, beings in the apayas, Devas, etc) ALL will be in a higher Brahma realm that is NOT destroyed.
– Then the Solar system will re-form over billions of years, and eventually, all those being in that Brahma realm will gradually come down to the Earth.That cycle has been going on forever. That is a very short summary that I gave.
– To understand how it all happens REQUIRES a lot more background material that I suggested.
– One needs to ALSO understand the rebirth process, kamma and kamma vipaka, etc.What I stated above is in a bit more expanded form in the post, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
More information on the rebirth process at, “Evidence for Rebirth.”
Thanks, Seng Kiat.
I was not thinking about how to write those letters.
There is another way to find the correct way to write SOME words. The Sutta Central “Search” tool can be used, for example, to find how vinnana is spelled by typing “vinnana” in the Search box:
479 results for vinnanaAs you can see, it correctly spells out the word.
