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In this post you stated that according to Waharaka Thero you need to listen to an ariya to get the sotapanna phala citta. This makes perfect sense to me, but i have a friend who wants a reference in the Tipitaka to this. In the post you said you where looking for the reference your self,so I’m hoping you might have found it by now.
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I just revised that post to include this comment:
“I still have not seen a definitive Tipitaka reference regarding this issue. However, all suttas on the conditions for attaining Sōtapanna stage list saddhammassavanaṃ (saddhamma + savanaṃ or “listening to Dhamma”) as one condition, as in #1 above. Since written texts were not available at the time of the Buddha, this is not definitive as a condition.” -
Axel,
The reference IS the Tipitaka itself. There, all who attained the Sotapanna stage listened. I cannot know whether during the times of previous Buddhas written (not to say printed) copies of desanas were made available, so I cannot assume that they were, but neither can the possibility be excluded.
I for one feel more at home and more enriched reading than listening, but that may be because I can ‘manage’ the content better that way : giving more time to stop and reflect on key words and phrases and so on.
During the time that I have been typing I see that Lal has replied. Still, I felt like sharing this with you.
metta
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This does not need any Tipitaka reference. Not everything needs Tipitaka reference if one would be limited like christians or muslims to scriptures it means one is limited to those scriptures and does not develop any wisdom but just blind faith. Tipitaka is Dhamma which makes people develop wisdom so they can apply it to all sorts of things and come up with the clarity and see things the way they are :)
About the question you asked I will show you examples that can gives you a hint. Let say there is musician who can read the music (notes) but without knowing how to play and instrument and hearing one does not really experience the music one reads. Same with people on the Path, one needs to listen to the Dhamma to truly understand it as musicians needs to learn/listen to music to really understand the notes. :)
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Even going to the mundane and common sense – what is better learning alone things you do not understand or having someone who understand the topic? If I going to give you book on physics or math even for beginner you would have much more problems and trouble then person who have someone who is more advanced and have better understanding (better and PROPER) so you have a lot of clarity moments which it not necessary to be like that when doing things alone without any ideas what those things are about of having assumptions about them of how they are like :)
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It is true that the Tipitaka cannot be expected to have ALL the details.
As one learns Dhamma and progresses, one would be able to “fill in the gaps” by oneself.However, there are key insights that only a Buddha is able to see. For example, I have explained why a citta vithi has 17 cittas; see, “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction“.
– But an actual citta vithi can be seen only by Buddha. He explained it to Ven. Sariputta and that is how it was incorporated to the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
– Even then it is not easy to to grasp that process, unless one is truly interested.Whether a sotadvara citta vithi (generated by a Noble Person) is necessary to trigger the Sotapanna magga and phala citta in a listener (while listening to a discourse by a Noble Person) cannot be figured out by us.
– Note that sotadvara citta vithi means a citta vithi generated by an arammana (sound) coming through the ear.
– It may not be necessary, but if the Tipitaka says it is necessary (or discuss that particular sotadvara citta vithi), then we would have confidence in that fact. -
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Yes. It is a good desana. As I remember, it does provide references to suttas with the statement, “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti“.
– That includes the requirement of “listening to saddhamma or correct Buddha Dhamma“.A couple of such references are provided in the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” too.
In fact, many suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṃyutta SN (55)” of the Samyutta Nikāya discuss all four conditions required to attain the Sotapanna stage.
What I referred to in the reply to your first post on this topic above is the following:
– I am not aware of a TIpitaka REFERENCE that SPECIFICALLY says that Sotapanna PHALA CITTA is attained ONLY WHILE listening to an Ariya.
– See #3 of the post regarding this point. “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”If there is such a reference in the above desana of Ven. Abhaya, please get that reference from your friend and post it here. We all would appreciate that.
I hope you are having a productive time in Sri Lanka.
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Lvalio asked me to post the following comment. Apparently he had a problem in posting it. He thinks it is a problem at his end. Anyway, the following is the comment.
None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!
Just understand (understand) the true Dhamma (saddhamma) is sufficient.
And how is it necessary that the master, teacher be an Ariya and not only a good person, or a virtuous person, or etc.
But he who teaches the true Dhamma can only be an Ariya (at least one Sotapanna). And how could he teach the real Dhamma if he wasn’t?
Sometimes the person who read and understood the dhammā a little, starts to think about it and suddenly she sees the first noble truth
Only that, seeing the first noble truth is enough to accomplish Sotapanna, because Lord Buddha said that he who sees the 1st immediately sees the other three, because they are the logical consequences of the 1st
“Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination.” -
Lvalio wrote: “None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!”
That is not right. My post that you referenced does not say anything like that. If I have given that impression, I need to correct it. Please quote or refer to the bullet # where I wrote that or implied that.
To attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to see the fruitlessness of craving for worldly things. That is the anicca nature.
However, at that stage one has not yet lost the sanna (perception) that worldly cravings are not fruitful. Thus one cannot help “enjoying the worldly pleasures.”
That is sort of like a smoker who can see that smoking is bad for one’s health. That is like a Sotapanna.
– However, the smoker has not given up smoking yet. He still likes to smoke out of the old habit.That is not a perfect analogy in the following sense.
– A Sotapanna WILL lose the cravings for sensory pleasures within a limited time. Sotapanna’s understanding is NOT reversible.
– A smoker may go back to being a smoker unless he has the WILL POWER to gradually cut down smoking.
– Sotapanna’s PERMANENT understanding WILL INEVITABLY make him/her cut down on cravings for sensory pleasures gradually.P.S. I realized that I forgot to state the relevant point.
– A Sotapanna CANNOT get that understanding without learning the true nature of this world from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (Noble Person). Because it is a Dhamma that only a Buddha can discover. A normal human CANNOT figure that out by himself/herself, no matter how intelligent he/she is. That is the key point. -
Even if we base this question on the base of simple logic – to learn count to ten or to learn to speak properly, write or even have basic societal understanding and orientation you go to school and learn. Logical things are not necessary to be proven thru suttas as they are obvious. So as we can see to learn how to count to 10 you need to highly qualified person to do so, so person who will teach Dhamma obviously need to be at least Sotapanna to see things as they are so he/she can explain it.
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To me also is seems obvious that Dhamma (the true, original Dhamma) can be taught only by Ariyas.
Nevertheless, we should feel grateful also to those who just passed on the suttas down the generations without themselves having got to the true, the ‘hidden’ meaning in the suttas, the one the Buddha intended to convey. Else, those suttas would not have survived for Ariyas to get to the deeper meaning later down the centuries.
It is the work of Dhammata in both cases – the one just in the preservation of the Dhamma in Its literal sense, the other in Its true exposition by Ariyas, both in their own time and place, and in both cases to those ‘deserving’ of it.
As to the main point under discussion – whether LISTENING is necessary to attain the Sotapanna Stage – that is still debatable. One way I see that would resolve the issue is if someone were to declare to have attained the Sotapanna Stage WITHOUT ever having listened to a single desana. (In case the doubt arises, an Ariya would not even THINK of lying, since the consequences of that will be full well known to him/her; and if he/she were NOT an Ariya, but only claiming to be one, still he/she will no doubt know what it WILL lead to. It has not escaped my notice that all so-called ‘enlightened masters’ declare only a ‘sudden bolt out of the blue’ and never any stage magga phala).
Afterthought: but…there are or may be those who are BORN Sotapannas.
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Dear Lal,
in #3 of “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala,” you stated:– “(Waharaka Thero) explains that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanā by an Ariya.”
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– “However, even if a Sotapanna Anugami does not get to the Sotapanna stage in this life, he/she WILL attain the Sotapanna phala in a future life. A Sotapanna Anugami is a Noble Person and is free of the apāyas; see, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.”
The question that arises is, how is a sotapanna anugami then guaranteed to attain the sotapanna phala? That means he/she is GUARANTEED to get an opportunity to listen to a desana by an ariya somewhere in a future life. Or is something else going on?
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Hello Jorg,
You aked: “The question that arises is, how is a sotapanna anugami then guaranteed to attain the sotapanna phala? That means he/she is GUARANTEED to get an opportunity to listen to a desana by an ariya somewhere in a future life.”
Yes. That is correct.
– Basically, the “Sotapanna phala moment” will take place even in future life.
– But one must have understood (“seen with wisdom”) the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkahana. -
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