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That is a good way to put it. Thanks, Tobias.
– Of course, it is experienced at different levels corresponding to eight stages: Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant.
P.S. I recently came across the following sutta: “Nirāmisa Sutta (SN 36.31)”
Per that sutta, “niramisa sukha” can be experienced while on the mundane path.
– A stronger version of “nirāmisatara sukha” is experienced in the Lokuttara Path, starting with the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– It is possible that it is called “nirāmisatara sukha” probably because it will not go away even in future lives.P.P.S. We also need to keep in mind that “sukha” in Buddha Dhamma is the “absence of suffering”.
– A good analogy is the following. Suppose someone has a chronic headache that has been there for a long time. If they recover from it, they would just not feel that suffering anymore. It is not an “added sukha vedana”.
– We can say that the mind is “less burdened”.Thank you both for sharing your thoughts. It is heartwarming to see the effort and determination and also the willingness to share ideas and offer encouragement.
lodonyo asked: “What I need to know now is, what exactly reaches over to another birth assuming there is one, as per proper planning of a trip.”
Nibbana is all about “ending the trip from one birth to another.” But I understand what you mean.
– What reaches over to the next life is one’s REMAINING gati,anusaya, samyojana, anusaya, avijja, etc.
– It is CRITICAL to get rid of the worst form of “apayagami gati” that could bring rebirth in the apayas.
– That essentially requires an understanding of the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world. From your description, you seem to have that understanding. It is important to understand how births in various realms (especially apayas) can arise via the Paticca Samuppada process.
– We may have even done “apayagami deeds” earlier this life; they may try to bring rebirth in an apaya at the dying moment. However, as long as one does not have such “apayagami gati” left NOW, one’s mind WILL NOT grasp such a rebirth.I think most of your concerns can be addressed in the above way.
Wallasmulle Abhaya Thero emphasizes jhana, but he has made it very clear that one MUST first comprehend anicca, dukkha, anatta, and Paticca Samuppada (PS), i.e., the Four Noble Truths about how suffering arises.
– Cultivating jhana is a SECONDARY step. But, of course, it is good to cultivate jhana AFTER one has completed the first step.
– The Buddha encouraged cultivating jhana for “stress relief” in this life. Furthermore, he mostly encouraged bhikkhus to cultivate jhana. I have not seen a Tipitaka sutta where he encouraged lay people to cultivate jhana.
– Make effort according to the priorities. Cultivating anaraiya jhana (i.e., without comprehending Tilakkhna/PS/Four Noble Truths) is a waste of time. There is no jhana in the Eightfold Noble Path, only Samma Samadhi.
– P.S. When the Noble Path is complete (i.e., at the completion of Samma Samadhi), it will be easy to get all jhanas at the Arahant stage. Of course, some people AUTOMATICALLY get to anariya jhana even before becoming Sotapanna Anugami due to Samsaric habits. That is good, but one must not be fooled that one has magga phala.P.S. I had made an error in my initial response. The following is the correct explanation.
Hello Dosakkhaya,
You seem to be referring to the following sentence in the “Yasoja Sutta (Ud 3.3)”:
“Tena kho pana samayena bhagavā āneñjena samādhinā nisinno hoti.”In the English translation there: “But at that time the Buddha was sitting immersed in imperturbable meditation.”
1. So, the translator translated “āneñjena samādhi” as “imperturbable meditation.”
– That translation is correct. It is the Buddha who was in this samādhi. Thus, āneñja, in this case, has the meaning of “no more rebirths”. Thus, it is the “Arahant phala samādhi.”2. My confusion was due to the fact that cultivation of “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra” lead to “arupāvacara samāpatti” and the cultivation of arupāvacara samāpatti
result in rebirth in one of the four arupāvacara Brahma realms: ākāsānañcāyatana, viññāṇañcāyatana, ākiñcaññāyatana, and nevasaññānāsaññāyatana.
– I have discussed that in detail in the post, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra”3. The point is that “āneñjābhi” means “no more rebirths.”
– However, before the Buddha, anariya yogis had thought that the cultivation of “arupāvacara samāpatti” leads to Nibbana, i.e., no more rebirths. That is why the term “āneñjābhi” was used in the types of saṅkhāra (āneñjābhi saṅkhāra) that lead to those “arupāvacara samāpatti“.4. However, the “Yasoja Sutta (Ud 3.3)” does not refer to “arupāvacara samāpatti” or āneñjābhi saṅkhāra.
– In fact, the single sentence in the sutta directly refers to a samādhi of the Buddha.
– Thus, āneñjena samādhinā in that verse refers to “Arahant phala samādhi.”
– Therefore, it is OK to translate it as “imperturbable meditation” because “Arahant phala samādhi” is “imperturbable.”
– Furthermore, there is no conflict with the material in the post, “Jhāna, Jhāya, and Jhāyi – Different Meanings”
– Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if the above explanation is not clear.Yes. It is puzzling to me why these “bhikkhus” wear yellow robes.
– I wonder what their goal as a bhikkhu is. Many of them don’t truly believe in rebirth. That means they have miccha ditthi, i.e., they are not even on the mundane path!I am more sympathetic toward average people. Many of them are confused; they can see the truth of what I write. But they don’t understand why so many “bhikkhus” and their blind supporters are opposed to what I write.
– But the truth will prevail.1. It is still NOT 100% certain that listening to a LIVE discourse by an Ariya is necessary for a Sotapanna Anugami to attain the Sotapanna phala moment.
– That requirement is NOT THERE to become a Sotapanna Anugami.2. There are EIGHT Noble Persons (Ariya): Sotapanna Anugami, Sotapanna, Sakadagami Anugami, Sakadagami, etc.
– Each of those is guaranteed to be free of rebirths in the apayas. They are all guaranteed of full Nibbana within a relatively short time.
– My point is as long as one is a Sotapanna Anugami, the next steps WILL happen in due time.3. While I wrote the above, the following thought came to my mind: Sotapanna Anugami is also an Ariya.
– But the “phala moment” must happen to make one a Sotapanna.
– The question of “is listening to a live discourse by a higher Noble Person” necessary to get to that “phala moment” has not been fully resolved.I think that should clarify the current status.
I probably did listen to an Ariya while in Sri Lanka in 2014 and 2016.
“So, Let’s say the DESANA one is hearing from ariya is not fitting to person’s background, then will they still achieve magga phala?”
– It is hard to say. A Dhamma concept must become clear while listening.Of course, if one has attained the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one will attain all other seven stages without a doubt within a relatively small number of rebirths.
1. It is a waste of time to try to sort out these issues. Buddhaghosa was a Vedic Brahmin in yellow robes (just like many bhikkhus today; they teach wrong concepts quite possibly unknowingly). He may have had “good intentions”. But most of the problems we have today, especially regarding meditations, are due to his Visuddhimagga.
2. It is better to spend time learning SOME of those ñañas than learning how to categorize them.
– Some are only accessible to a Buddha. We cannot cultivate them.3. At some point, I may write a post on that categorization. But there are more urgent issues to address first. These include Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, Anapanasati/Satipatthana, etc (that have become “distorted” due partly to Visuddhimagga.) Those are issues that I will be tackling in the new “Elephants in the Room” series.
– However, if someone knowledgeable can describe those nañas, that would be great.“Niramisa domanassa” arises in a person who is on the mundane or Noble Path and is not making progress fast enough for them.
– For example, a Sotapanna may be worried about not making enough progress toward the Anagami stage. It is not depression. Just being anxious to get there faster.P.S. I revised the post “Peace of Mind to Nibbāna – The Key Step” that Dipobhasaddhamma linked above. It is an old post I wrote in 2016.
– By the way, please copy the exact title of the post when you post a link.You are right. It is at the “tanha paccayā upādāna” step that we do the both of the following:
1. We accumulate more kamma (and add to existing kamma bija).
2. We also grasp a new bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment by “attaching to an arammana” via “tanha paccayā upādāna” which lead to “upadana paccaya bhava”, i.e., to a new bhava. Here an existing “kamma bhava” becomes “uppatti bhava”.
See, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna” and “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda“
Paṭisambhidāmagga has a longer list that seems to include those 16:
1. Visuddhimagga and the Wikipedia article you cited, can lead to confusion.
– That is why I say that most of the English translations out there are very difficult to “sort out”.
– Visuddhiagga mixed up Buddha’s teachings with Vedic teachings. That is clearly evident in his adaptation of “breath meditation” as Anapanasati and the use of kasina objects.2. Patisambhidamagga is the only reliable source in that article. Both Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga include non-Buddhist teachings.
– Thus I would not trust that Wikipedia article. It takes too much effort even to try to sort things out.1. Dipo’s question: “Also, is there ever an event where a gandhabba is completely annihilated, such as in a parinibbana of a Buddha?”
– It depends on what you mean by “a gandhabba”.
– A specific gandhabba (say, corresponding to a human) dies at the end of that “human bhava”. If that lifestream grasps an “animal bhava” next, then an “animal gandhabba” will be born simultaneously with the dying of the “human gandhabba”.
– The possibility of arising of any gandhabba or “grasping of any type of bhava” stops for an Arahant.2. The “heater coil” analogy given by Lang applies ONLY in specific situations for a human gandhabba.
– A human gandhabba will have a relatively long lifetime (into thousands of years) compared to the lifetimes of “physical human bodies”. A “physical human body” will die anywhere from the baby stage to about 120 years. Thus that human gandhabba will be reborn with different “physical human bodies” MANY TIMES within the lifetime of that gandhabba.
– Exceptions to the above rule apply when a human does an “anantarika/anantariya kamma”. Those are strong kamma that will bring vipaka immediately. However, as long as a gandhabba is INSIDE a “physical human body” that anantariya kamma cannot bring that vipaka. But as soon as that human body dies and the gandhabba comes out of the dead body, that kamma vipaka will perish that gandhabba.
– Now, that can be good or bad depending on the type of the anantariya kamma.
– “Good” ananriya kamma are magga phala and jhana. For example, if that human became a Sakadagami, Anagami, or an Arahant, they cannot be reborn in the human realm. Thus that human gandhabba will perish and a Deva or a Suddhavasa Brahma will be born in the first two cases. In the case of an Arahant, there will be no new gandhabba, Deva, Brahma, or any birth. If that human had cultivated (anariya) jhana, they will be reborn a Brahma.
– “Bad” anantariya kamma includes the killing of a parent or an Arahant. In such a case, the “human gandhabba” will perish when it comes out of the dead physical body and rebirth will occur in an apaya.
– P.S. In the cases of anantariya kamma (good or bad), the coil has been “heated” with that anantariya kamma. But as long the coil (gandhabba) is inside the “body of water (immersed in water)” that body of water will also heat up and be able to keep the coil intact. But as soon as the coil comes out of the water, it cannot “bear” that heat and will burn. This is a CRITICAL point to understand. Please ask again if not clear.P.P.S. The following video shows such a heater coil. If that heated coil is taken out of the water bucket, it will burn and will no longer be useful.
Yes. As Lang explained, “vimutti” (release from the Samsaric suffering) is experienced at different levels.
– Of course, the “ultimate release” is at the Parinibbana of an Arahant.1. All translations at Sutta Central are “word-by-word” translations.
– In this particular sutta, one can probably get the ideas conveyed depending on the level of understanding.
– But I also did not get to explain the sutta in detail. Any sutta requires further details.
– If one cultivates anariya jhana (using anariya Samatha Bhavana techniques), then the order in the holds. But, of course, one cannot cultivate Ariya jhana until one cultivates Vipassana Bhavana and gets to at least (ii) and (iii). I briefly mentioned that in #7 in the post.2. “Sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo” is “sabba” + “upadhi” + “paṭi” + “nissagga”.
– Those terms mean, “all” + “defilements” + “bonds (to the Samsaric process)” + “become free of ”
– Thus it means to attain the Arahanthood by becoming free of all defilements, and the ten types of samyojana (Samsaric bonds).Please note: Questions on all posts in the new “Elephants in the Room” section must be asked in the forum on “Posts on ‘Elephants in the Room'”.
– I have moved this topic to that forum.
– It is easy to figure out whether a given post is in the ‘Elephants in the Room” section. Just look at the web link. For example, for the post in question:
https://puredhamma.net/elephants-in-the-room/elephant-in-the-room-2-jhana-and-kasina/jhana-jhaya-and-jhayi-different-meanings/
