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I have re-written that old post:
“Udayavaya (Udayabbaya) Ñāna – Introduction”It should give a better idea until I can write more.
– But as you can see, one would have the udayavaya ñāna if one understands the anuloma and patiloma Paticca Samuppada.1. OK. I am quite happy to read your post above. I now understand your questions/comments on September 25, 2022, at 3:11 am. I will explain below.
– Communicating via writing can be tricky. We have to be careful to try to get the ideas expressed correctly. I read through the thread from the beginning and saw that I had made some errors (at I could have explained better a couple of points.) I have corrected those. See September 14, 2022 at 10:09 am (I have bolded the new text), and September 14, 2022, at 8:57 pm (first paragraph).2. I was quite relieved that you seem to understand much more than many others. I am mainly referring to those who are only exposed to “traditional Theravada,” where they value Visuddhimagga and read mechanical (word-by-word) translations of deep suttas. Of course, Mahayana is not even close.
– I can see that many people writing on this forum have a good understanding. It is good to see that there are enough young people now to help others in the future, long after my generation is gone. I am responsible for teaching all I know, and I will do my best. That is all I can do to pay off my debts to Waharaka Thero, who is no longer with us.
– With that out of the way, let me try to address your questions/comments on September 25, 2022, at 3:11 am.3. You wrote: “It can be summarized as follows: Existing information is required for any new information to occur. It is also why there is no traceable origin in samsara. No matter how far back, there is still information.”
I think what you are trying to say could be the following. Existing namagotta (or recalling existing namagotta) is necessary for us to do more (abhi)sankhara. That is how the rebirth process continues.
– We cannot even live life without recalling past namagotta. Take some simple examples. If records of your experiences several years ago to Disney World were not kept in nama loka (vinnana dhatu), you would not be able to recall them. If you cannot remember what a pizza looks like, you would not know what to do when you are given a pizza.
– For example, see “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)” and “Five Aggregates – Experiences of Each Sentient Being“. You may have read most of these. I am giving them for the benefit of others.4. You wrote: “Rūpa(including dhammā) means activated energy. So, anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa can turn into anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. But anidassana/appaṭigha nāma can not turn into anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (you had “nāma” there).”
That is exactly right. Very good.
– P.S. Of course, one can create NEW anidassana/appaṭigha rupa BASED ON recall of PAST anidassana/appaṭigha nāma and/or anidassana/appaṭigha rūpa (i.e., past events.)5. You wrote: “Rūpa loses energy over time. The record of information is a naturally occurring process of it. The registration and preservation of information is not a process of consuming additional energy. It does not conflict with the above proposition(Existing information is required for any new information to occur).
Because the above process refers to information with energy(New Information), and the below process relates to information that remains as a result of the process of energy disappearance(Remaining Information).”That may be written better as follows:
“Rūpa loses energy over time. The record of namagotta is a naturally occurring process. The registration and preservation of namagotta is not a process of consuming additional energy. It does not conflict with the above proposition (Existing namagotta is required for any new namagotta to occur).
That is because the above process refers to namagotta with energy (kammic energy or dhammā or appatigha rupa), and the below process relates to information that remains as a result of the process of energy dissipation (converted to namagotta without kammic energy or appatigha nāma).” See “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu”6. That is a good explanation. I was glad to see that once I understood what you were trying to say. Note that it is better to use Pali words in many cases without trying to translate them to English (or any other language).
– It is impossible to convey the meaning of certain Pali words in any other language; the closest is the Sinhala language. Some people think I say that because I was born in Sri Lanka. But that is not true. Most Pali words are being used in the Sinhala language without any conversions. Examples include ALL the terms in Paticca Samuppada (avijja through jati, jara, marana, etc.)
– Nama loka (vinnana dhatu) is VERY different from rupa loka that we experience with our five physical senses. Things in the rupa loka have spatial locations. Namagotta in vinnana dhatu (nama loka) have no spatial locations. They can be accessed from even the other end of the universe (if one can get there). See “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu”
– All namgotta are preserved FOREVER as anidassana appatigha nama. That is why Buddha Gotama was able to recall getting “niyata vivarana” from Buddha Dipankara trillions of years ago. It is a natural law that namagotta are preserved forever. It is just that no one except a Buddha can figure out such details about our world.
– But, one does not need to believe such things based on blind faith. There is enough evidence from various avenues. For example, rebirth accounts by children worldwide, Near-Death Experiences (NDE) of numerous heart patients worldwide, and HSAM studies (“Recent Evidence for Unbroken Memory Records (HSAM)“) are among them. I have discussed them in detail. You probaly read most of them. I encourage others to spend time and read and evaluate them. That will build confidence in the teachings of the Buddha.7. Thank you for the two suggestions in your later post. I will try to address them ASAP.
I appreciate your efforts to learn Buddha Dhamma. I have been thinking about your situation. Before addressing your mechanisms above, let me make some general comments.
1. I think you are trying to learn Buddha Dhamma with a “top-down” approach, starting at suddhatthaka.
2. The main reason that you did that was you were not brought up in a Buddhist background. I remember that you mentioned it later on. Your situation is very similar to many Westerners. Of course, most of them do not try to understand suddhatthaka only because most English literature on Buddhism does not even mention suddhatthaka. You were exposed to such deeper analyses at the Korean Puredhamma website. Instead, most Westerners start with deep suttas translated word-by-word to English.
3. I learned about suddhatthaka AFTER I started the puredhamma.net website. I was raised in a Buddhist family in Sri Lanka, where Buddhism was taught at home and in primary school. We learned the basics of dasa akusala, kamma, kamma vipaka, rebirth process, suffering in the apayas, etc.
– That is the “bottom-up” approach.
– That approach is critically important. You realize the importance of “mind over matter.” All our actions and speech happen according to the way we think. Kammic energy is produced in our thoughts. We engage in speech and actions ACCORDING TO such thoughts.
– When we act or speak with a certain goal in mind (especially while engaging in dasa akusala), our minds release “an unseen energy” to the nama loka (vinnana dhatu). That energy can bring vipaka during a lifetime or grasp the next birth in a different realm.
– It is critical to understand such basics first.
– As I mentioned, I only recently got into the deeper aspects of that process (how such kammic energies get deposited in vinnana dhātu as dhammā, how they become suddhātthaka, etc.)4. So, I am beginning to think that I am also guilty of focusing on the deeper aspects of Buddha Dhamma. When I started the website, I wrote mostly about the basic concepts. But many of the posts in the last few years have been on getting into deeper aspects.
– In a way, it is hard to avoid it also because some people have gone through the basics and are ready to understand the deeper aspects.
– Please do not misunderstand me. You have an excellent analytical mind capable of understanding deep concepts. However, one must understand the basics first. Even if Einstein started learning Buddha Dhamma, he would need to understand the basics first. Otherwise, the deeper stuff may not make any sense at some point.5. In my previous post, I advised learning the Paticca Samuppada process. But even before that, one needs to understand the terms involved there. What do the terms avijja, sankhara, bhava, jati, etc., represent?
– I did a quick search on Wikipedia and found the following: “According to a 2005 government survey, a quarter of South Koreans are practicing Buddhist.[49] However, the actual number of Buddhists in South Korea is ambiguous as there is no exact or exclusive criterion by which Buddhists can be identified, unlike the Christian population. With Buddhism’s incorporation into traditional Korean culture, it is now considered a philosophy and cultural background rather than a formal religion. As a result, many people outside of the practicing population are deeply influenced by these traditions. Thus, when counting secular believers or those influenced by the faith while not following other religions, the number of Buddhists in South Korea is considered to be much larger.[50] Similarly, in officially atheist North Korea, while Buddhists officially account for 4.5% of the population, a much larger number (over 70%) of the population are influenced by Buddhist philosophies and customs.”
– It seems that many South Koreans may not have a Buddhist background (you stated that you are a Korean.) Buddhism has become a “philosophical endeavor” for many, it seems. Your writings and approach fit that.6. I would like to hear your thoughts on the above. Each person is different, and it would help to get an idea of their background first.
– Of course, I cannot do that on a personal basis for everyone. But I believe many people (especially those from non-Buddhist backgrounds) are in your situation. Most of them struggle to read deep suttas (in English) that have been mechanically translated without providing explanations.
– They also need first to understand the basic concepts I mentioned in #3 above.
– So, we can continue this discussion with others in a similar situation as you are also getting into the discussion (I hope).
– That would help me decide what areas to pay attention to. Of course, I will continue writing on deeper aspects as well. My goal is to have a website that will exist many years after my death and serve people with varying backgrounds.“IF #1 AND #2 ARE TRUE,
what’s problem with detection?”1. Detect with what? Scientific instruments melt below a certain depth.
– Do they know where the niraya is? At what depth? At what location? Earth is huge.2. There are MANY things that scientists do not understand. Don’t look to science for answers to these types of questions.
– Do they even know how “vision” happens? No.
– See “How Do We See? – Role of the Gandhabba”3. The “hell beings” are born via kammic energy. They do not have bodies similar to us. You are thinking in terms of our bodies. Our bodies would not last a millisecond in a niraya. They are born with “bodies” that can withstand such heat enough to feel suffering.
– Laws of kamma and how kamma vipaka give rise to “bodies” in various realms are discernible only to a Buddha. I have added a sutta reference (Acinteyya Sutta) in bullet #3 of post in #2 above.4. These are questions about things average humans do not perceive. One can waste a lifetime looking into these issues.
– However, it is good to realize the above to dispel doubts. I am glad that you asked the question in that sense. But such doubts cannot be dispelled by looking at “verification” by science.
– Also, see “Dhamma and Science – Introduction”“If they have dense body, why can we not detect them with scientific instruments?”
OK. Let us go step-by-step.
1. Does anyone know where the hell (niraya) is below the Earth’s surface?
2. Do you know that “scientific instruments” do not function below a certain depth? Even metals melt below a certain depth.
3. The Buddha has taught that Deva and Brahma realms also exist, in addition to the niraya (one of the four apayas). Furthermore, the peta (preta) and asura realms also belong to the apayas. Have you or anyone else seen them?1. “Pada nirutti” in Pali is based based on phonetics, not based on grammar rules.
It helps understand the meaning of words formed by combining two words/fragments that contribute to the meaning.
P.S. The sound of the combined word comes from the fragments, but sometimes the pronunciation of the combined word is a bit changed for easier pronunciation. For example, the two words “na” (not) and “āgāmi” (not coming back) combine to yield “Anāgāmi” (not coming back to kāma loka) But many words are straight forward: sammā, tanhā, etc. See #2 and #3.2. I have given many examples based on “san” in “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Saṃsāra)”
3. More examples in “Search Results for: pada nirutti“
“So, I guess all one is supposed to do is to keep yoniso manasikara in mind, isn’t it?”
Yes.
“Also, what do you mean by “one has to sort out family situation first”?”
I was addressing the issue of seeking the Anagami stage. As I explained, that cannot be done properly while being a “regular householder,” i.e., a married person living a regular married life.
– Therefore, one needs to consider the related serious issues: commitments to the spouse, children, etc. No one else can advise on that.Hello Jorg,
I cannot think of a reason why either mudā or mudhā has anything to do with micchā. Where can the connection be?Dosakkhayo asked: “Can anidassana/appaṭigha nāma turn into anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā)?”
How can that be possible?
– Kammic energy is created by MIND via abhisankhara.
– How can that happen automatically to a namagotta that has gone to the past?An anidassana/appaṭigha nāma in namagotta is a record in the PAST.
– Of course, if that record is recalled and you get attached to that memory and generate abhisankhara, that can create a kamma bija or an anidassana/appaṭigha rupa(dhammā). But that is a NEW namagotta.I think you need to study the Paticca Samuppada processes. That should be the start. Understand how kamma bija/kamma bhava arise via abhisankhara done with avijja: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English”
– You can probably start with the third post.
– Once the terms are understood, the first two can be read later.Namagotta includes both anidassana/appaṭigha nāma AND anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā.)
Think about it the following way.
– Namagotta includes ALL our past experiences.
– Some experiences do not lead to kamma generation and those lead to anidassana/appaṭigha nāma.
– With other experiences, we generate kamma bija/dhammā (via abhisankhara). Those lead to anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā.)Now, kamma bija/dhammā can lose energy over time (those that have not brought vipaka). Those that brought vipaka lose their energy while bringing vipaka.
– Thus eventually anidassana/appaṭigha rupa (dhammā) end up as anidassana/appaṭigha nāma.I explained this by answering another question from you in a different thread too. You may not have understood it there.
– Please read the above carefully. Quote from above what is not clear and ask questions. It is important to understand these concepts.Is it “mudhā” as in “Laddhā mudhā nibbutiṁ bhuñjamānā” in Ratana Sutta“?
Seng Kiat’s post on January 25, 2018 at 9:42 pm summarizes various aspects of anicca, dukkha, and anatta as listed in “3.9. Vipassanākathā” in the Tipitaka Commentary “Paṭisambhidāmagga.”
– Of course, those can be explained in detail.
– Jorg’s explanation is good. Different people understand words differently. But the point is to see the fruitlessness and danger in remaining in the rebirth process.
– I hope those who still believe anicca means impermanence and anatta means “no-self” will read the above discussion carefully. Buddha Dhamma is deep. It is foolish to resort to the simplest and dumbest interpretations. “Anapanasati” as “breath meditation” is another dumb interpretation.
– As I have explained in several posts, the wrong view of a “me/self” is sakkaya ditthi. It is not “anatta,” even though these concepts are interrelated. Anatta is ending up helpless (especially when born in an apaya) WHEN one has sakkaya ditthi.“Perhaps I had mistakenly extended that Arahant cannot generate javana citta related to akusala to not be able to generate all javana citta.”
1. Yes. It is that.
– In a sensory event, the “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” operates also for an Arahant.
– However, javana cittas that arise AFTER the vottapana citta DO NOT arise for an Arahant. See #15 in that post.2. Abhiññā is a different topic. I don’t think we need to get into the details of that. It is a specialized area related to (and goes beyond) jhana.
– I have discussed some aspects (not mechanisms) in “Buddhahood Associated Controversies”
– As the Buddha advised, we need to focus on how suffering arises and how it can be stopped from arising.
– Of course, it helps to discuss some Abhidhamma aspects to see the depth of Buddha Dhamma and the amazing mind of a Buddha who can describe mental phenomena in such minute detail. I think I have done that without getting into abhiññā.
– Not many people can understand the details of Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda. As I have stated before, it is not necessary to understand those details if one can understand the basic two types: Akusala-mula PS and Kusala-mula PS (origin of suffering and stopping it).1. All Arahants do not have abhiññā power. In fact, relatively few Arahants had abhiññā powers.
– Cultivating abhiññā is a different area altogether.2. some anariaya yogis had abhiññā powers.
3. To cultivate abhiññā powers, one must cultivate the fourth jhana (Ariya or anariya) first.
– Those Arahants who had abhiññā powers did not cultivate them. Those who had cultivated jhana/abhiññā in recent previous lives automatically ended up with abhiññā powers upon Arahanthood.
– A good example was Cūḷapanthaka Thero. He automatically attained abhiññā powers with Arahanthood.
