[Lal]

“ñatvā” means “with that understanding”.
– So, your translation is good.

Also, you may have missed the recent discussion: “Peṭakopadesa”
– There are many possible (related) meanings to “anicca.” The same holds for “anatta.” See at the end of “6. Suttatthasamuccayabhūmi”

[Lal]

I am glad that you are spending time digging into this issue.

Here are the correct interpretations that I believe are consistent with ANY reference in the Tipitaka:

1. Nicca means the view/perception that something/anything in the world can be maintained to one’s satisfaction and can bring benefits.
– Icca is the craving for worldly things based on the above perceived “nicca nature.”
– Anicca is the opposite of nicca.

2. The words with the additional letter “h” (niccha, iccha, aniccha) emphasizes those characteristics.

Now, if anyone can find contrary evidence to the above, we can discuss them.

3. Conversely, many English translations ALMOST ALWAYS translate “anicca” as “impermanence.” That is wrong.
– They sometimes correctly translate “iccha/niccha/aniccha” (as in #2 above). An example of the correct translation is the first verse that you referenced.

4. An example of an incorrect translation is in the second verse that you referenced:
“Sukhajīvino pure āsuṁ, bhikkhū gotamasāvakā;
Anicchā piṇḍamesanā, anicchā sayanāsanaṁ;
Loke aniccataṁ ñatvā, dukkhassantaṁ akaṁsu te.”

Translated in “Jantu sutta (SN 2.25)“:
“The mendicants used to live happily, as disciples of Gotama,
Desireless they sought alms; desireless they used their lodgings.
Knowing that the world was impermanent, they made an end of suffering.”

Here, the translator INCORRECTLY translated “anicca” as “impermanent.”
– That does not flow with the rest of the verse/sutta.

If you repeat this exercise, you will find more inconsistencies.

[Lal]

Thanks, Zapper.
– I fixed the link.

[Lal]

May be we should discuss the concept of “nirodha samapatti” in more detail if it is unclear.
– That will help get the correct idea of Nibbana (particularly Parinibbana of an Arahant).

Please read the following post and ask questions if not clear:
“Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“

[Lal]

This is a good example of why “anicca” should not be translated as a single word of “impermanence” in English.

“Tattha katamo aniccaṭṭho? Pīḷanaṭṭho aniccaṭṭho pabhaṅgaṭṭho sampāpanaṭṭho vivekaṭṭho aniccaṭṭho, ayaṃ aniccaṭṭho.”
– It means, “What is meant by the “anicca lakkhana“? – It means (things in this world) are to cause stress (Pīḷana), are of “breakable nature (pabhaṅga), induce one to engage in immoral deeds (sampāpana), cause restlessness (aviveka).”

There are even more words used to describe anicca in another Tipitaka Commentary. It is not necessary to analyze each of them.
– However, I have discussed the Pīḷana nature in the post, “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)“

1 user thanked author for this post.

namo0804

[Lal]

That sutta provides the correct description.

The difference between a dead body and the body of an Arahant in nirodha samapatti is the following:
– The dead body is “really dead.” It does not have a pulse or body temperature; the body becomes cold.
– The physical body of an Arahant in nirodha samapatti does not have a pulse either. But the body temperature is maintained by kammic energy.

That is the description in the sutta.
– But, if one understands the concept of nirodha samapatti, there is no need to look for a sutta.

[Lal]

Thanks for the additional references, Seng Kiat.

But I think those three are types of ñana (levels of wisdom) too. Indriya is another name used.
– They are included in the section on “Ñāṇakathā” per my link above. “Ñāṇakathā” means “details on the types of Ñāṇa.”

In any case, one can interpret it in any way one likes. It is an “attainment.”

[Lal]

Why do you need a sutta for that?

In both cases, one gets to the same state.
– In the case of Parinibbana of an Arahant, one would not be born in this world. There is no anusaya in mind and no flow of citta vithi.
– In the case of nirodha samapatti, the characteristics are the same (no anusaya and no flow of citta vithi), but it is effective only for up to seven days maximum. Then the Arahant “goes back to living” the rest of his/her life until the kammic energy for the life runs out. At the end of life, we can say it is “permanent nirodha samapatti.”

[Lal]

First, please make sure to start with the name of the post and then add the link to it. Don’t just copy the link and paste it.
– I just added the link correctly.

I don’t see anything wrong with the post.

P.S. I just revised the post in question. Those are minor revisions.

[Lal]

Thanks, Seng Kiat, for the explanation.

Here is another post that discusses that issue: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“

The main points are the following:

1. The “Ministry of the Buddha” or the “Buddha Sāsana” with the unique message of the Buddha will last only as long as there are Noble Persons (those who have attained magga phala, i.e., Sotapanna through Arahant) stages.
– They have the special name “kalyāṇa mittā” of a “Noble friend.”

2. Only a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (who has grasped the teachings of the Buddha) can explain those teachings.
– Once there is no longer any such kalyāṇa mittā on the Earth, Buddha Sāsana will disappear.
– Then, the world will have to wait for the next Buddha, Buddha Maitreya, to be born to attain magga phala (Nibbana.) That is supposed to happen in a billion years or so.
– The current Buddha Sāsana of Buddha Gotama is expected to disappear within the next 2000 years.

P.S. That is why the Buddha told Ven. Ananda (in the Upaḍḍha Sutta (SN 45.2)) that the continuation of his Buddha Sāsana depends TOTALLY on kalyāṇa mittā.

[Lal]

No. I did not think that your response was discourteous.
– It is just that I think there are more urgent issues to address than to discuss the “formation of world systems.”

But I can see your “thirst” to figure out those issues. So, I will go through a quick point-form summary.

1. The Buddha said that only a small cluster of 10,000 world systems is destroyed at a given time. The whole universe will never be destroyed.
– A world system is a planetary system around a star. Thus, our Solar system is a world system (cakkavala). When one of the stars in such a cluster blows up in a supernova, the whole cluster of 10,000 will be destroyed.
– As I remember, there may be a few such “blowups” per year in our Milky Way galaxy, according to scientists.

2. Many cakkavala within a 10,000 system may have living beings located around a planet in each cakkavala. In ours, it is the Earth. All 31 realms in our cakkavala are based around the Earth.
– Living beings with “denser bodies” live close to the surface of the Earth. Devas in the Deva realms have “less dense bodies” and are far above the Earth.
– Rupavacara Brahmas live even further, and arupavacara Brahmas (with just hadaya vatthus) the furthest.
– Well before our cluster blows up in a few billion years, all living beings would have migrated to the Abhassara Brahma realm.
– When the Earth blows up (together with the Sun and many other stars in the vicinity), only those realms BELOW the Abhassara Brahma realm would be destroyed.
– Thus, all existing living beings can live at or above the Abhasara realm after that “blow up.”

3. Our 10,000 world system (let us call it our “cluster”) will be in that state for many billions of years.
– During that time, those Brahmas will gradually start “re-building” the material world (i.e., the Sun and the planets, including the Earth.) The same will happen in all other cakkavala in the “cluster.” That will lead to re-emerging of the “missing matter” in the “cluster” over many billions of years.
– It is the javana citta of those Brahmas over billions of years that will make enough suddhatthaka to re-form the whole system.
– Even now, we humans also make suddhatthaka, but those are in insignificant quantities. But uncountable Brahmas over many billions of years can make enough matter! Unlike our javana citta, Brahmas generate intense javana power. That is why yogis who can get to jhana samapatti can “generate” material objects like flowers or even larger objects!

4. What I very briefly described in #3 is the short answer to your question.
– When the Earth is re-formed (not the same Erath, but similar), then those Brahmas in the Abhassara realm will gradually be reborn on Earth as humans.
– That cyclic process has happened uncountable times in the past. That is why the Buddha said there is no discernible beginning to the rebirth process (Samsara).

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jittananto

[Lal]

In the first comment of this thread, firewns stated: “I have come across youtube videos about people having near-death experiences in which they encountered Jesus and sometimes they went to the realm of ‘Hell’.”

The new post of today “Three Types of “Bodies” – Poṭṭhapāda Sutta (DN 9)” may help clarify this issue.

[Lal]

You are quite correct, Lang.

People have very weird ideas about Sotapannas, Anagamis, Arahants, etc.
– They are all human. But they live more peaceful lives than average humans burdened by numerous “mind-made stresses.” Other than that, most benefits are not realized in this life.
– Furthermore, they want to do as much as possible to help others.
– Most neighbors may not even know whether I am a Buddhist!

[Lal]

You are welcome, firewns!

It is good to discuss these issues whenever they come up.

[Lal]

The answer to the first question should become clear when you look at it the following way.
– What happens in an NDE? The mental body (gandhabba) comes out and it experiences the world without the burden of a physical body. It is the same person!
– So, whatever biases/wrong views that they had inside the physical body, they would still have them.
– Therefore, I understand the context of such videos.

Of course, I have unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Otherwise, I would not be spending essentially all of my time dedicated to this effort of sharing what I have gained.
– How does a child KNOW without a doubt that he has learned how to add and subtract, i.e., have faith in what he learned?
– They would know that because they will be able to use what they learned to solve any random problem. Once they find the solution, no one can deny that they had solved it correctly. Even if the teacher says the answer is wrong, he can SHOW the teacher that he is correct and the teacher is wrong.
– Once true understanding comes, it is unshakeable. In this case, of course, it is understanding the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.

[Author]

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