[Lal]

1. Jorg was unable to make the above post on his own. A couple of others have run into the same issue. But they could post subsequently. I am not sure why that is.
– If anyone runs into the same issue (i.e., gets the “forbidden” message), please email it to me so that I can post it: [email protected].
– This is why it is a good idea to write the post in a word processor and paste it.

2. I am very impressed with Jorg’s understanding and efforts. Writing one or two more posts in the “Elephants in the Room” series may be necessary to address his questions. I will read his comment and see whether I can give brief answers or not.

[Lal]

The following post is from Jorg:

Thank you kindly, Lal.
Everything you said is very clear. Samphassa-ja-vedana always precede dhammā (kamma bīja). Without Samphassa-ja-Vedana, there’s no way of kamma bija developing.

Still, I had some questions lingering about that particular phrase because it’s such a key component in this tradition which I used to practice for about six years until I got hold of the deeper dhamma truths. I feel it’s my duty to understand so that I can communicate this with that proper understanding. So, I checked the corresponding suttā of the phrase for some context. After some contemplation, along with what Lal said, some things cleared up, and I realized why it was originally interpreted that way.
Maybe this is also helpful for other members who have a background in this tradition.

The context of 2 out of 3 suttā starts with Buddha asking the following questions:
AN 8.83 (This one has 8 Q & A)
AN 10.58 (This one lists 10 Q & A)

“‘kiṁmūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā, kiṁsambhavā sabbe dhammā, kiṁsamudayā sabbe dhammā, kiṁsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā, kiṁpamukhā sabbe dhammā, kiṁadhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, kiṁuttarā sabbe dhammā, kiṁsārā sabbe dhammā’ti, kiṁ ogadhā sabbe dhammā, kiṁ pariyosānā sabbe dhammâ ti.”

To which he then, himself, answers:
“‘chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā, manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā, phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā, vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā, samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā’ti, amat’ogadhā sabbe dhammā, nibbāna pariyosānā sabbe dhammâ ti.”

Let me arrange them in the corresponding order, adding the answer to the question, and add my comment below each Q & A:
1.)
Q: kiṁmūlakā sabbe dhammā?
A: chandamūlakā sabbe dhammā.
“What is the root of all dhammā (kamma bīja)? Kamachanda are the root.”

Kamachanda are the root cause of suffering, and they lead to new existences. Since Buddha dhamma is all about knowing this and doing something about it (with nibbana as the end goal as mentioned as #10), chanda must mean kamachanda, therefore with dhammā, kamma bīja is meant, not necessarily namagotta (memory records).

2.)
Q: kiṁsambhavā sabbe dhammā?
A: manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā.
I assume the question is something like: “How do these kamma bīja end up getting established in the kamma bhava (sambhavo = kamma bhava?) and, thus, lead to a new existence? Because of anyoniso manasikara.”

Since we indulge in/desire sense pleasures (kamachanda), we act with ayoniso manasikara, the opposite of yoniso manasikara. In other words, we act with ignorance of Paticca Samuppada and Tilakkhana.

3.)
Q: kiṁsamudayā sabbe dhammā?
A: phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā.
How do kamma bīja arise? They arise because of contact with san (samphassa).”

Here, I thought it was extra clear that Buddha is referring to kamma bīja because phassa cannot lead to the formation of kamma bīja. Phassa only results in the formation and storage of namagotta. In other words, “samphassa” is meant, which aligns with the previous use of ayoniso manasikara and kamachanda.

4.)
Q: kiṁsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā?
A: vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā.

In Lal’s first translation “all types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhamma,” Lal used “coming together” which coincides with Sutta central’s definition.
In the last response, Lal mentioned that “sarana” means something like help/depend on.
“Samo” means similar or equal?
This question must then mean something like:
– What are kamma bīja (equally) dependent upon?
– What converges into kamma bīja (in the same way/according to the same process)?
Answer: They all depend (in the same way) on the generation of samphassa-ja-vedana.
Since there’s samphassa, “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana” step in the PS must happen.
And only this type of vedana leads to the establishment of kamma bīja (in the kamma bhava).

5), 6), 7), 8), 9), 10).
From here on I’m not familiar with many of the terms.
Let me arrange each Q & A on the same line this time:

5.    kiṁpamukhā sabbe dhammā? samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā.
6.    kiṁadhipateyyā sabbe dhammā? satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā.
7.    kiṁuttarā sabbe dhammā? paññuttarā sabbe dhammā.
8.    kiṁsārā sabbe dhammā’ti? vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā’ti.
9.    kiṁ ogadhā sabbe dhammā? amat’ogadhā sabbe dhammā.
10.   kiṁ pariyosānā sabbe dhammā ti? nibbāna pariyosānā sabbe dhammā ti

Sutta central translation:
“Immersion is their chief. Mindfulness is their ruler. Wisdom is their overseer. Freedom is their core. They culminate in the deathless. And extinguishment is their final end.”

That translation is vague, but if the definition of the words comes close, I think what the Pali sutta is trying to convey is that we need samma sati and samma samadhi to develop wisdom, leading to the eradication of defilements, thus removing the conditions for these kamma bīja to ever give rise to a new existence, i.e., be freed from them, which eventually leads to nibbana.
But not sure why sati and samadhi are listed in this order (samadhi before sati).

The third sutta is slightly different but necessary to include here. AN 9.14

It’s very similar to the answers given (except the first two), but the questions are related to “sankappavitakka,” not “dhammā” (kamma bīja).

“Kimārammaṇā, (samiddhi), purisassa saṅkappavitakkā uppajjantī”ti?
“Nāmarūpārammaṇā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti?
Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.

After this, it goes on similarly as the other two suttā, shown in bold (but all related to sankappavitakka):

“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti? Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,” etc.

Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but I assume the question means:
Q: “How do miccha sankappa arise after an arammana has come in contact with the sense doors?”
This should be micchā sankappa because we need to free ourselves of wrong thoughts (Micchā Saṅkappa, Apuññabhisaṅkhāra ) to reach Nibbana.
A: “They arise due to the expectation created (in the kamma viññāṇa by abhisaṅkhāra), which leads to ‘kamma viññāṇa paccaya nāmarūpa’ (in the Paṭicca Samupādda).”

The next part:
Te pana, samiddhi, kva nānattaṁ gacchantī”ti? Dhātūsu, bhante”ti.

Sutta central translation:
“Where do they become diversified? In the elements.”
Maybe this is something to do with salayatana. (I’m not sure, I don’t know the words in the question).
Because of namarupa, our senses cannot be used objectively and cannot see things for what they truly are. Elements are not merely elements anymore, they become valuable, and one becomes hopeful and delusional due to this nicca perception.

To finish off, to avoid any gaps surrounding the key phrase “Vedanāsamosaraṇā”:

“Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamudayā”ti? Phassasamudayā, bhante”ti.
Te pana, samiddhi, kiṁsamosaraṇā”ti?
Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante”ti,”

I assume this means that our defiled thoughts (miccha sankappa, apuññabhisaṅkhāra) arise because of samphassa.
Then, we start generating samphassa-ja-vedana, which all lead to more and more of similar defiled thoughts (because of taṇhā). These thoughts/sankappa/saṅkhāra are all dependent upon samphassa-ja-vedana. Without it, they (sankhara) won’t arise. (but that means we need to get rid of avijā first, so that we can stop the “avijā paccaya saṅkhāra” step in PS).
“Coming together,” or “converge,” seems a bit less appropriate in this context. Though, in the end, these saṅkhāra create dhammā and eventually get established (automatically) in the kamma bhava.

I understand now better why “vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā” gets translated as:
-     “Whatever arises in mind is accompanied by sensations”; or
-     “Everything that arises in mind starts flowing with a sensation on the body.”

That’s because “samosarana” gets translated as “coming together,” and so it’s easy to think that dhammā come together and manifests as vedana. Dhammā are interpreted as mental phenomena, which is unfortunately not a precise description, leading to various interpretations.
Also, because of samphassa-ja-vedana, we start generating abhisaṅkhāra, and these abhisaṅkhāra generate more samphassa-ja-vedana. Then, when samphassa-ja-vedana is seen as simply “vedana,” or “sensations,” that logic actually holds up. In turn, this solidifies the idea of the translation, “Whatever arises in mind is accompanied by sensations.”

I hope this was helpful.

Lal, or anyone else, would you be able to help me fill in the gaps with the translations I missed?
And, of course, if I made an error anywhere, feel free to point it out.

With Metta

[Lal]

“vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”

I discussed that on this thread on April 19, 2018, at 8:06 pm.

There I wrote, “Again, the point is that not only “kaya vedana” but vedana due to all six senses lead to the mind making good or bad decisions, which end up in “sabbe dhamma” in the above verse, “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhamma”, which now we can translate as, “all types of vedana coming together to lead to each and all dhamma”.

“Sarana” means something like “help”/”depend on.”
– That may help a little bit to see nirukti.

The point is the following.
– “Dhammā” in the above verse refers to the kamma bija/kamma bhava created via PS. “Dhammā bear everything in this world” and created by our minds with abhisankhara as explained in PS.
– The verse “Ye dhamma hetuppabbhava” means that! It means “All dhammā in this world arise due to causes (they are greed, hate, ignorance),” as the Buddha explained. See “Ye Dhammā Hetuppabhavā.. and Yam Kiñci Samudaya Dhammam..”
– But it all starts with an arammana coming to mind and us getting attached to it. If we get attached, we generate “samphassa-ja-vedana” (due to greed, hate, ignorance) that leads to tanha, upadana, in PS leading to “upadana paccaya bhava.” That is how dhammā (as in kamma bija/kamma bhava) arise.
– Therefore, dhammā cannot arise without vedana, specifically “samphassa-ja-vedana“. Thus, “vedanā-samosaraṇā sabbe dhammā”

[Lal]

Jorg wrote, “..but I was referring to whether there was a reference for “cittanupassana is not recommended for people who haven’t understood the dhamma,” or something along this line.”

– I am not aware of a direct quote on Dhamma like that.
– However, if one does not understand that “sati” means “Sammā Sati” that means they have not understood Dhamma enough to do ānāpānassati or cittānupassanā that comes within ānāpānassati!
– So, I think the verse, “Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṁ vadāmi” means the same as, “..ānāpānassati is not recommended for people who haven’t understood the dhamma (meaning Buddha Dhamma).”
– That verse is in the cittānupassanā section of MN 118.

I am not sure when I will do the next post on “Anapanasati-related -elephant-in-the-room” section.
I keep coming across things that need to be addressed before that.

[Lal]

Good question. I have wondered about that too.

It is possible that “asura gati” are lumped together with “animal gati.”

If anyone has other possible explanations, please post.

[Lal]

I am glad that Sacket clarified the key point.

The bottom line is that the material in the post “Rebirth – Connection to Suffering in the First Noble Truth” is correct and fully compatible with the Tipitaka.

One will be free of the apayas ONLY when one starts comprehending 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana, i.e. when one gets at least to the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

P.S. Sacket wrote: “Even our Bodhisattva was reborn as animal many times (even in Hell also).”
– That is not correct. Once a Bodhisatta, births in the niraya (hell) would not occur. A Bodhisatta can be reborn only in the animal realm; even then, he will not be reborn as an animal of less than a certain size (as I remember the size of a rabbit).

[Lal]

That is right!

All kamma bijā accumulated through numerous lives will still be there. They cannot bring vipaka because the purified mind of a Sotapanna (purified to that level) will not grasp them.
– That does not require willpower. It happens automatically.

[Lal]

Yes. That verse is a bit hidden here:
“Yasmiṁ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ‘cittapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘cittapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘abhippamodayaṁ cittaṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘abhippamodayaṁ cittaṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘samādahaṁ cittaṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘samādahaṁ cittaṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘vimocayaṁ cittaṁ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘vimocayaṁ cittaṁ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; citte cittānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṁ vadāmi. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, citte cittānupassī tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ.”

It is close to the middle of the sutta: “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118).”

In the English translation at: “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118)” that highlighted verse is translated as:
“There is no development of mindfulness of breathing for someone who is unmindful and lacks awareness, I say.”

P.S. That English translation is laughable. Any fool can do “breathing in out mindfully”!
P.P.S. “muṭṭhassatissa” means “one who does not have a comprehension of Samma Sati (which requires comprehension of 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana.

[Lal]

Good questions and answers!

1.) Correct.

2.) Those quotes were discussed in the post “Ānāpānasati – Overview.”

Anyone should try to practice Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā.
– Of course, one in category (i) would not have any incentive to do.
– Those in category (ii) should do it, and it will help them comprehend 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana and get to the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage.
– Only those in category (iii) (Sotapanna Anugāmi or above) can attain higher magga phala with the practice.

There are two posts (including the one cited above) in the section “Elephant in the Room 3 – Ānāpānasati.” I will write more in the future.
– There are also early posts on Ānāpānasati in “Bhāvanā (Meditation)”
– Posts on Satipaṭṭhāna in “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” section.

P.S. This topic is more suited for the “Meditation Forum.” Please think about the appropriate forum before posting.

[Lal]

1. This is why I often say that suttas cannot be translated word-by-word. They need to be explained in detail.
“Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa”

2. The “Uṇṇābhabrāhmaṇa Sutta (SN 48.42)“ is a short sutta.
– But, it requires an understanding of 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana, at least to some extent.

3. If I am forced to summarize the following steps:

“manassa kho, brāhmaṇa, sati paṭisaraṇan”ti.
“Satiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, vimutti paṭisaraṇan”ti.
“Vimuttiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, nibbānaṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti.
“Accayāsi, brāhmaṇa, pañhaṁ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṁ gahetuṁ. Nibbānogadhañhi, brāhmaṇa, brahmacariyaṁ vussati nibbānaparāyaṇaṁ nibbānapariyosānan”ti.

I may write:

A cleanse a mind is the help/refuge to Sammā Sati
To get to vimutti ñāṇa Sammā Sati helps/is required.
Vimutti ñāṇa is the way (help/refuge) to get to Nibbāna.
Once one reaches Nibbāna, no more progress to be made. That is the end of the effort!

– But, it requires even more explanation, especially for someone unfamiliar with the difference between sati and Sammā Sati, etc..

4. The verse before “Manassa pana, bho gotama, kiṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti?” is the following:
“Pañcimāni, brāhmaṇa, indriyāni nānāvisayāni nānāgocarāni na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhonti. Katamāni pañca? Cakkhundriyaṁ, sotindriyaṁ, ghānindriyaṁ, jivhindriyaṁ, kāyindriyaṁ. Imesaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, pañcannaṁ indriyānaṁ nānāvisayānaṁ nānāgocarānaṁ na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhontānaṁ mano paṭisaraṇaṁ, manova nesaṁ gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhotī”ti.
– That requires even more explanation.
– It is by not letting the five sense faculties (indriya) become ayatana that one cleanses the mind. That is explained in the post, “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa” and the in the links therein.

5. Please don’t expect to learn Buddha Dhamma by reading suttas translated word-by-word. That is an impossibility.
– That is why I have several posts under “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.” Of course, those posts also refer to many more other posts!

[Lal]

You are correct. I had written about “removed defilements” instead of “removed suffering.” Even though they are related, not the same. Thanks for pointing it out.
– This post has not been revised recently. I just revised it and made other changes too.

Let me know if anything else in that post require revision.

[Lal]

Good question!

I highlighted the three keywords that appear in the three suttas above in Dosakkhayo’s questions: paṭibhāga, paṭisaraṇa, atthiya

The last two are easier to translate:

paṭisaraṇa means to provide refuge/protection.
atthiya means “(possible) benefit.”

The first one, paṭibhāga, means something like “The presence of this can lead to that benefit.”

One must grasp each word’s meaning in the context of the other questions (preceding the quoted questions above) in each sutta. You can go through the three suttas and ask more questions.

P.S. You should read the English translations provided with each sutta. See whether it makes more sense if you replace their translation with the above.

[Lal]

Great. Thank you for trying it out!

[Lal]

You are welcome!

You still did not do the links correctly.
Instructions for linking web pages in #2 of “How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question”
– I just now revised those instructions.

To repeat the linking instructions:

2. In particular, it is good to use the “link” button to provide a link to another post on this website or an external web page. To describe the procedure, let us assume that you want to provide a link to the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post on the website.

(i) Open that post in a separate window.
(ii) Copy the post’s title (“Abhidhamma – Introduction”) and paste it into your text window.
Select that text with the title (“Abhidhamma – Introduction”) and click the “link” button. It will open a new window to put in the web address.
(iii) Go to that other open window with the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post and copy the web address from that web page (which in this case is “https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/abhidhamma-introduction/”).
(iv) Come back and paste that to provide the link at the URL input. Note: Don’t forget to check the little box “Open link in a new tab” so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.
(v) That is it!

I hope they are clearer now. Please send me an email or comment below if those instructions need improvements.
– Anyone can try out a test page if they like. Just write “TEST” at the beginning and try to link the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post below to follow along exactly! I can delete such “TEST” posts later.
“Abhidhamma – Introduction”
– It is worthwhile to try it out and learn how to do it correctly. That will make comments/questions look better. Also, opening a link in a separate tab enables the reader to go back and forth between the comment and the referred web page.

[Lal]

“asādhāraṇena ñāṇa” is wisdom that is uncommon or “not shared with average humans.”
– Not many humans can comprehend 4NT/PS/Tilakkhan and get there. That is why it is called so.

The Buddha has several asādhāraṇena ñāṇa not shared with even Arahants. Only a Buddha would have them.

Note: Please take time to properly insert a link.
I had to take the time to “fix” your link.

[Author]

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