- This topic has 12 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 6 months, 2 weeks ago by namo0804.
July 18, 2022 at 5:11 pm #38797LalKeymaster
Today, I came across a Tipitaka reference that provides a clear-cut event for attaining the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
There are three types of ñāṇa attained on the way to Arahanthood:
The first ñāṇa is Anaññātaññassāmītindriya attained at the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage. The second one, Aññindriya, is attained and optimized at the intermediate six stages (sotāpattiphala through arahattamagga.) The third one, Aññātāvindriya, is attained at the Arahant phala moment.
– Thus, something definitive occurs when one gets to the Sōtapanna Anugāmi stage.
I have revised the post, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi and a Sōtapanna” to include this information. It is in #5 of the revised version.
July 19, 2022 at 12:09 am #38812
Can you elaborate on meaning of this nãna, lal? what is this indriya?
July 19, 2022 at 2:42 am #38813
Upon searching on internet,
This is what I have found.
When the Stream-entry path is reached, a new, supramundane faculty, the I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown faculty (anaññātaññassāmītindriya) appears, to be subsequently followed by the new and supramundane final-knowledge and final-knower faculties (aññindriya, aññātāvindriya). These are gained in this life with the attainment of Arahantship.
I think SengKiat mentioned 22 kinds of faculties in reply to one of my post And the faculty “I will know the unknown” is found in sottapana.
Can you verify this, lal?
July 19, 2022 at 2:42 am #38814SengKiatKeymaster
These three are indriyā and not ñānā and belongs to the Wisdom faculty describes in this post. It is in the A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, under Compendium of Categories, at Compendium of Mixed Categories under Faculties (§18 – page 273).
Download the Wisdom faculty (paññindriaya) of Lokuttara (supramundane) Chart for better viewing.
July 19, 2022 at 4:07 am #38816
Faculty Of “I will know the unknown” means having Chanda for nibbanā and trying to have asavakhaya nana, right?
July 19, 2022 at 4:42 am #38817SengKiatKeymaster
LayDhammaFollower asked: Faculty Of “I will know the unknown” means having Chanda for nibbanā and trying to have asavakhaya nana, right?
No, anaññātaññassāmītindriya is the wisdom faculty “I will know the unknown” or “competent of what has so far been unknown” when Sotāpatti is reached. See the “Wisdom faculty (paññindriaya) of Lokuttara (supramundane) Chart” above at the top right corner.
Kindly note that when reaching the Sotāpatti fruition, if you have not been able to reach jhāna till the fourth jhāna (for sutta) or fifth jhāna (for Abhidhamma) and have ability to review the five jhāna factors and know which jhāna a yogi is in, you will not be able to review the thought process (paccavekkhana vīthi) of these three wisdom faculties (anaññātaññassāmītindriya, aññindriya, and aññātāvindriya).
July 19, 2022 at 7:21 am #38823LalKeymaster
Thanks for the additional references, Seng Kiat.
But I think those three are types of ñana (levels of wisdom) too. Indriya is another name used.
– They are included in the section on “Ñāṇakathā” per my link above. “Ñāṇakathā” means “details on the types of Ñāṇa.”
In any case, one can interpret it in any way one likes. It is an “attainment.”
November 20, 2022 at 10:59 am #41449cubibobiParticipant
I was re-reading the below post, with the new chart which is tremendously helpful! I am delighted and would like to share a few thoughts which are most closely related to something in a sotapanna forum, so I post them here.
“What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?”
In another thread, I recently mentioned that I am using PD to guide someone in learning Buddha Dhamma, and with a chart like this one can have an idea where one is on the path.
With this chart, we can also easily explain various stages of liberation or enlightenment; they are no longer too abstract.
In my native language, there is a generic word for “enlightenment” which literally means “awakening”. Actually, in English as well, most people take this meaning; they say that “The Buddha” means “The Awakened One” because the word “Buddha” has a root that means to “wake up”. Thinking of “Buddha” as “bhava + uddha” makes much more sense to me.
Regardless of the breaking down of “Buddha“, the explanation of “awakening” that follows tends to be vague, and gives the impression of an all-or-nothing event, not a gradual, step-by-step process.
However, if we can apply this chart to what “awakening” is, I’d propose that it is the sotapanna anugāmi stage, and it is the stage where most of the work of the Noble Path takes place.
At this stage, although sotapanna magga phala has not occurred, one has seen anicca, dukkha, anatta to a strong enough degree to never go back to the mundane path, i.e. one has “awakened” to the Noble Path.
We have learned that a sotapanna sees the path to arahanthood, and that it takes at most 7 bhavas to get there, and that’s why we have some radical similes as to how much defilement a sotapanna has left to remove compared to that of a normal being, such as the amount of dirt stuck to one’s fingertips compared to the amount of dirt of the earth. This is also why Lal had a post about how a sotapanna is better off than a king or a billionaire.
Just like a sotapanna sees the path to arahanthood, a sotapanna anugāmi sees the path to a sotapanna, except there is no guarantee of how much time to get there. Hence this is where most effort takes place.
Thank you for the post and the chart, and curious to see everyone’s inputs.
November 21, 2022 at 2:11 am #41457TripleGemStudentParticipant
Saddhu saddhu saddhu Lang and others for guiding / teaching others the Buddha dhamma. May you, the one’s you’re guiding and all of us living beings attain the Supreme peace and freedom of Nibbana.
I agree with your assessment that the chart in the “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma” post can definitely help to explain more easily the various stages of liberation or enlightenment and give an idea where one is on the path. Someone that’s competent in the Buddha dhamma or an ariya that explains the different parts of the chart, I believe it can help the listener / learner to understand the processes involved and differences between the mundane and transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. This chart can also give the learner a road map to follow and can be used as a comparison of one’s past and current experiences while one is walking either on the mundane or transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. The chart (used as a road map or a reflection of one’s current and past experiences) can also possibly increase the readers / listeners / learners confidence and motivation by showing them that they are indeed walking / following on the right path in either achieving their mundane spiritual goals or to attaining Nibbana.
I’ll also add the chart can also be used to explain the difference between the “real” Buddhism and other religions. When someone that can give give a proper / good explanation of the chart like the written materials included in the post of this discussion. I believe it makes it very clear to see the differences between the “real” Buddhist and other religions practices. As well it would be difficult for listeners / learner to refute what’s being explained. But of course people can always think of foolish refutes.
My view / opinion is that the English words awakening, enlightenment, and nibbana are still a bit abstract for the majority of today’s spiritual practitioners and can possibly lead to some confusion, especially to people that are not familiar with the Buddha dhamma. For example, the majority of non-Buddhist today would automatic incline to think the word “awakening” applies to any spiritual person or yogis or anyone that can spew some esoteric or obscure teachings or have proclaimed some form of attainments such as jhana’s. This was my experience anyways while I was learning “new age” materials and sometimes still see it today. I believe it would be beneficial to try to clarify those words and come up with ways according to our understanding of the Buddha dhamma to try to sort out these words for the learner. Trying to explain what nibbana is or why one should put effort into attaining nibbana to a puthujjana, is not an easy task, but can be done partially with the right mundane wordings. As well nibbana is something that only an ariya would have some or full understanding depending on their ariya attainments. I don’t fault people for not understanding it properly or why one should strive to attain Nibbana. It’s like from a sutta, where a householder said to the Buddha. (My wording might not be the most accurate, but my general understanding was this) “For householders giving up sensual pleasure, is unappealing as jumping off a cliff”
– “This is also why Lal had a post about how a sotapanna is better off than a king or a billionaire.”
If I were to mention some details on how the majority of billionaires, people in power, famous people, etc get into their positions in our current times this becomes more apparent. What I have come to learn / seen / understood / know is that in our current times and going forward millions to billions of years from now on this planet. Anyone that lives a regular life, even though one might be poor, struggling to make ends meet or even being homeless, the majority of time one is still better off than being a king, billionaire, in power or being famous in this world. This can change (mundanely) though when the majority of humanity on this planet thoughts, speech, and actions inclines towards the wholesome side. But this doesn’t really matter since no matter what direction the world heads in, it’s still anicca, dukkha, anatta. The word “decadence” is actually a pretty good word to describe the current state of affairs of humans on this planet and about anicca nature.
I can’t remember exactly when and who wrote a post that I came across here in the forums, but someone mentioned / hinted (very subtly) of some very mundane dark things that’s taking place in this world that people have no idea about or can even imagine it’s happening, even for people with intelligence and wisdom. I’m not sure if others understood fully what was being said, it’s not essential to the path anyways. But I exactly knew what this person was saying. Now that I think about it, I should’ve at least replied to show that person he / she is not alone on here that has some idea what’s the current mundane state of affairs of this world. I don’t know how that person feels with what they know, but from my own experience, it’s one of the most saddest, frustrating experience that one has to goes through. Imagine not really being able to say anything to protect / help your love one’s, the people you care about or even people you come across in our everyday lives what’s really being done to them, their families and pretty much 90% plus of this world’s population. The thing is even if people knew, there’s really nothing one can do about it, besides practicing the Buddha dhamma. The Buddha dhamma is the only refuge, protection, shelter one has in / from this world.
I’m not sure if these inputs are what you and others are looking for but hopefully it can help in any way possible.
November 21, 2022 at 2:52 pm #41460cubibobiParticipant
Thank you for your inputs.
First, a word about mundane dark things that may be happening in the world of the elite, those with ultra wealth and power. If that is the case then it shows the danger of ignorance of Buddha Dhamma on the mundane level, not knowing the consequences of actions, which may happen future lives.
Also, about guiding others (and in my case just one person), I notice something: this person appreciates the Pali words after understanding their meanings.
After establishing concepts of the big picture (the complex world of 31 realms with a rebirth process) and the mundane path (moral living, avoiding the 10 types of miccha ditthi), a person does appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words after they grasp the meanings behind them. They may also come up with analogies of their own when learning key concepts.
Just a thought for someone who may be guiding others using the PD site.
November 21, 2022 at 8:08 pm #41463TripleGemStudentParticipant
“Also, about guiding others (and in my case just one person), I notice something: this person appreciates the Pali words after understanding their meanings.”
– This person really does have potential!
“After establishing concepts of the big picture (the complex world of 31 realms with a rebirth process) and the mundane path (moral living, avoiding the 10 types of miccha ditthi), a person does appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words after they grasp the meanings behind them. They may also come up with analogies of their own when learning key concepts.”
– This has been my exact experience so far. After I started to appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words, it’s has helped me tremendously on the path.
November 24, 2022 at 5:15 am #41486dosakkhayoParticipant
I just found the comment of anaññātaññassāmītindriya in Tipitaka.
November 28, 2022 at 12:03 am #41528namo0804Participant
Thank you for your efforts 🙏
Mettā to all beings…
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