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Sorry. I am not familiar with the website. If you can send me ([email protected]) a link to a selected post with English subtitles, I can post it.
It is fascinating to read the ongoing discussion at Sutta Central mentioned in the above post.
First, if semen is gandhabba, how do births in Deva and Brahma realms arise? Those are opapatika births without sexual intercourse. Furthermore, how do memories of previous lives (as the Buddha had) propagate through semen?
Some suttas mention “patisandhi vinnana” descending to a womb, and others “gandhabba” descending to a womb.
– But one must understand a given concept depending on the context. A “patisandhi vinnana” is a (kamma)vinnana arising at the moment of cuti-patisandhi; a split second later, a gandhabba with five aggregates arises. Technically, a (kamma)vinnana cannot “descend to a womb” without a rupa made of at least a suddhatthaka.1. “Patisandhi vinnana” does not belong to the rupa aggregate. It belongs to the vinnana aggregate.
2. At the cuti-patisandhi moment, a “patisandhi vinnana” gets more energy and is converted to a suddhatthaka (with kammic energy), i.e., hadaya vatthu. That hadaya vatthu belongs to the rupa aggregate. That is the “rupa aggregate” of the gandhabba.
3. Thus, technically, it is a rupa (not a vinnana) that descends to a womb. That may happen even years after the birth of the gandhabba at the cuti-patisandhi moment.Several suttas in SN 22 clearly state “coming and going of (kamma)vinnana, its passing away and reappearing, its growth, increase, and maturity” cannot happen in the absence of other four aggregates (rupa, vedana, sanna,sankhara).
– “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” I have linked to the specific verse.
– Only a gandhabba (with five aggregates) can survive the time between the cuti-patisandhi moment and “descending to a womb.” By the time “descending to a womb,” that kamma vinnana which gave rise to the gandhabba with the five aggregates, is no longer there.If anyone at this forum has any questions to clarify, please don’t hesitate to ask. These concepts need to be fully clarified and understood.
November 4, 2022: I wrote a post with the same title, critiquing the essay at Sutta Central: “Does Gandhabba Mean “Semen”?“
1 user thanked author for this post.
Yes. There are eight Noble Persons (aṭṭha purisa puggalā), two at each stage of Nibbana.
– Thus, both Sotapanna and Sotapanna Anugami are Noble Persons at the Sotapanna stage.Sometimes I specifically write Sotapanna Anugami to emphasize that it is the first Noble Person. But both uses should be OK.
Thanks for bringing it up for clarification.I went through LayDhammaFollower’s chart posted above and filled the slot that was open with “Kusala-mula
saṅkhāra (puñña abhisaṅkhāra with comprehension of Noble Truths).”The same link above points to the revised chart.
P.S. @Dosakkhayo: The “ultimate two supersets” I commented on may not be what you had in mind. I was also thinking about whether that approach could be “too deep” for beginners. Please proceed the way you planned.
LayDhammaFollower has the following chart to be shared with Dosakkhayo and others on the forum:
“Loka and Nibbana – LayDhammaFollower”
Much merits to LayDhammaFollower for his efforts!
First of all, Dosakkhayo, we are glad to hear that you are working well with the Korean Pure Dhamma Community. I can sense the high level of interest in the community.
I think those are fresh ideas that can be and should be tested out. We need to use all the tools available to bring back the true teachings of the Buddha.
The following are some thoughts cam to my mind, without thinking much about it.
There are two supersets.
1. This world of 31 realms with recurring and incessant rebirth process, where physical sukha/dukkha and mind-made somanassa/domanassa vedana exist. The level of sukha is optimum in the highest Deva realm, and the level of somanassa (or the absence of domanassa) maximum in the highest Brahma realm. On the other hand, any given living being spends most of the time in the lower realms (apayas) with unbearable dukkha/domanassa during the time when the realms in the kama loka exist. LayDhammaFollower’s recent chart explains that well: “Vedanā Vibhanga”
2. The second superset is Nibbana. A lifestream makes a transition from “this world” to Nibbana at Parinibbana.The two supersets are “mutually exclusive” meaning there is no direct overlap. There are no words to describe Nibbana in terms of terminology available to use in “this world.” But the Buddha emphasized that dukkha/domanassa is completely absent in Nibbana.
Furthermore, one can sense the definite decrease in dukkha/domanassa as one makes the transition from “this world” to Nibbana in four steps (eight stages). After the Sotapanna stage, the possibility of rebirths in the apayas will go away, and so on. A living Arahant would only have “vipaka vedana” that can bring both sukha and dukha until Parinibbana (death of the physical body).
– Thus even though the two supersets do not overlap directly, a Buddha figures out how to make that transition while in “this world.”
– That requires understanding how this world sustains itself with the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process. Only a Buddha can figure out how to go backward on that process with the kusala-mula PS and stop that cyclical forward akusala-mula process.Anyway, Those are some thoughts that came to my mind as I was reading your post.
– I am sure we will be able to make suggestions as we see details of your approach.
– But don’t deviate from your approach if it does not address those at the outset.May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you all in your efforts!
There are mainly two types of “Māra.”
– One is “kilesa Māra”. These are one’s own defilements.
– The other is “Devaputta Māra”. He is a Deva in the highest Deva realm.Those have been discussed in detail in the thread “Arahanthood Without Purpose.”
You can start with my comment on September 17, 2018, at 1:47 pm, where the discussion turns to “Māra.”
Be careful when dealing with Buddha Dhamma. It needs to be handled with respect. The Budha compared learning Dhamma to “handling a snake.” If handled in the wrong way, it can lead to bad consequences. I know you didn’t mean it. Don’t worry about it.
As for the writings by Bhikkhu Katukurunde Nanananda:
I read most of his writings a long time ago. He had a sharp mind. If he had listened to Waharaka Thero, that could have made a big difference.
He tried very hard to make sense of the Tipitaka. As you can see, he had read most of the suttas. But he could not make a coherent picture because he was not exposed to the fundamental teachings of the Buddha (anicca and anatta, among others). As you pointed out, he could not distinguish between phassa and samphassa either.
– His writings provide a good source of references. But I wouldn’t try to make sense of his explanations because of those reasons.LayDhammaFollower wrote:
“This is quotations from English translation of “law of dependent arising” digital library edition, page. 49,Whatever pertains to the ‘abhisaṅkhata-viññāṇa’ comes to cease in that all lustrous consciousness (sabbatopabha-viññāṇa). When light comes from all directions, consciousness becomes non-manifestative (‘viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbatopabhaṁ’).”
Like many people in discussion forums today, he was intrigued by the verse viññāṇaṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbatopabhaṁ. But his discussion does not make sense.
– That verse is explained in the post: “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means”
– More information in “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga“LayDhammaFollower wrote: “It was just that, I couldn’t see the connections between sakkāya diṭṭhi and NamaRupa discussion and also, between previous life progress and this discussion. Nothing else.”
It is for your benefit to understand the connection. That is why I gave the links. Don’t make dismissive statements without looking into issues. If you read them and the connection is not clear, you can ask questions. There is a limit to what I can write in a comment or even a regular post.
Yes. Understanding “namarupa formation” is the most critical issue.
1. That is how one starts with “nama dhamma” (vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vipaka vinnana) and CREATES future rupa: First, “namarupa” arise in mind in javana citta (with expectations for some worldly asset/activity in kamma vinnana) and then “condensed” with the repeated generation of javana citta in the “tanha paccaya upadana” and “upadana paccaya bhava” steps. See #4 of “Icchā (Cravings) Lead to Upādāna and to Eventual Suffering”
– These “namarupa” generated in mind (and released to vinnana dhatu) accumulate as kamma bija and come back to the mind at the cuti-patisandhi moment. That is when the manomaya kaya (hadaya vatthu, bhava dasaka, and pasada rupa) for the next existence are created by that accumulated kammic energy.
– This is discussed in the “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” subsection.2. Understanding that with an Abhidhamma analysis is ONE WAY to eliminate sakkaya ditthi.
– One can also realize the principle without going through the Abhidhamma analysis, but by realizing that there is no “soul/atman” going through the rebirth process. One creates one’s future lives with one’s mindset: “Is There a “Self”?”
– Our efforts to attain Nibbana may have started a long time ago in the rebirth process, and some may have made significant progress in the past. They just need a bit of help. Venerable Culapantha is a good example. He could not even remember a gatha (verse) after days of rehearsing. But with Buddha’s help, he attained Arahanthood and abhinna powers in a day!To add to the discussion: One can be in nirodha samapatti for only up to seven days because the physical body can not stay alive after that.
– On the other hand, one can live with Brahma viharana (Ananapanasati samadhi) for as long as one wishes.We also need to realize that nirodha samapatti requires sitting in one place for the duration. One has to get into rupavacara jhanas in sequence, get into higher arupavacara samapatti, and finally enter nirodha samapatti. But that may probably take only a few seconds for a Buddha or an Arahant like Ven. Sariputta.
– Conversely, one can be engaged in regular activities (eating, exercise, meal preparation if needed, etc.) while in Aanapansati samadhi. But one lives in seclusion.The word “adhivacanasamphasso” seems to be mentioned only once in a sutta (DN 15) and two other Tipitaka references:
“3 results for adhivacanasamphasso”
– When I first searched for “adhivacanasamphassa” nothing came up!This seems to be a deeper analysis of the “namarupa” formation in Paticca Samuppada.
– I can take a look at it when I have time later.
– Please feel free to comment if anyone has an explanation/suggestions.1. Paṭighasamphassa is easier.
– Paṭigha is a weaker form of dosa.
– Thus. in samphassa-ja-vedana, paṭighasamphassa can be understood.2. Adhivacana means “another name” for something.
– For example, danger, suffering, disease, etc, are “other names” for “kāma” or “sensual pleasures.”
– See “Bhaya Sutta (AN 8.56)”But I have not seen the term “adhivacanasamphassa” in the Tipitaka. Did he give a reference?
Thank you, Jorg, for pointing that out.
– Yes. I will add that to the post with a few references from the list below.Jorg asked: “Are there any more mentions of this in the Tipitaka that Buddha or Arahants went into seclusion?”
1. The following list probably has more suttas on that:
“16 results for diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya”2. Those Arahants who could get into nirodha samapatti did that whenever they got time to be free of the “daily stresses.”
– That would be even better.
– See “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti”
– P.S. Most of us probably cannot even grasp the subtle differences among those various states. But nirodha samapatti is the “ultimate liberation” attained at Parinibbana. It is NOT A FEELING, it is just the TOTAL ABSENCE of any suffering or even a trace of agitation.
