Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
“Though, avijja and mana may have relatively more influence on the sense of a “self.”
1. Yes. That is correct.
2. That is the main reason ALL asobhana cetasikas reduce strength as avijja and mana decrease.
– It is the view and perception of “me” and “mine” that lead to ALL defilements (and akusala kamma), i.e., energize all asobhana cetasikas.
– The largest change happens at the Sotapanna stage when one loses the wrong view of “me” by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi. Look at the list of asobhana cetasikas removed by a Sotapanna in your list in the first post. The Buddha said the fraction of defilements left in a Sotapanna compared to an average human is like a small pebble compared to a mountain.2 users thanked author for this post.
Yes. All such cetasika (kama raga, patigha, mana, uddhacca, avijja, as well as rupa raga and arupa raga) lose strength as one gets to Sakadagami and higher stages of Nibbana.
Yes. Your understanding is good.
Let me point to specific places in the sutta, so that others can follow it:
1. The verse you quoted first “Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya” is the beginning of a new section here (labeled 9.1):
“Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta”– There, the Buddha first describes sukha vedana experienced by anariyas (average humans) who attach to kama guna and indulge in sensual pleasures:
“9.1‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.2sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.3iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? 9.4Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. 9.5Katame pañca? 9.6Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, 9.7sotaviññeyyā saddā … 9.8ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … 9.9jivhāviññeyyā rasā … 9.10kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—9.11ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. 9.12Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ mīḷhasukhaṁ puthujjanasukhaṁ anariyasukhaṁ.2. Then, (as you mentioned) the Buddha describes the (Ariya) jhanic sukha experienced by those who attain Ariya jhana via the removal of kama raga anusaya. That starts at 9.13 in the above link:
“9.13‘Na āsevitabbaṁ, na bhāvetabbaṁ, na bahulīkātabbaṁ, bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.14Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.15Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.16Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… 9.17catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.18Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ. 9.19‘Āsevitabbaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ, bahulīkātabbaṁ, na bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.20‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.21sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.22iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.”
– The verse at 9.18: “Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ.” is translated correctly as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening.”
That could be stated a little better as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation of sensual pleasures, the pleasure of release from mental agitation (viveka), the pleasure of getting samma samadhi (away from kāmasukha and attakilamathānuyoga,) the pleasure of awakening.”3. The verse, “Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe’ti” related to your question comes at 10.1.
-Yes. The English translation there is good. If you read the rest of it, it will become clearer.
– The point is the following: When one comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world, it will be easier to engage in such behavior. One just needs to be mindful.4. Your comment about the Buddha advising bhikkhus to cultivate jhana is valid.
– “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
– It is impossible for “householders” to truly abstain from sensual pleasures and eliminate kama raga anusaya. They can get to anariya jhana (that holds only during this life; some lose the ability to get into jhana even before this life ends, as happened to Devadatta) but not Ariya jhana.– P.S. If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.
Excellent.
1. Just to emphasize what Jorg already mentioned.
– Moha is a universal akusala cetasika. See #6 of “Cetasika (Mental Factors)”
Therefore, it will be removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, as Jorg mentioned, moha reduced in strength to avijja at the Sotapanna stage and removed at the Arahant stage.
– P.S. Simultaneously, lobha is reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) and dosa is reduced to patigha). See “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Paṭigha, Avijjā”2. Regarding Jorg’s question, which is related to #1 above:
– Moha reduces in strength to avijja in two stages: (i) removal of 10 types of miccha ditthi BEFORE the Sotapanna stage, (ii) removal of the “wrong view” about an “unchanging self/soul/atman” at the Sotapanna stage. That second one is the same as the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– After the Sotapanna stage, the “perception of an unchanging self” or a “me” persists as “asmi mana” up to the Arahant stage. Of course, it reduces in strength at Sakadagami and Anagami stages.
– So, the “perception of an unchanging self” starts reducing very early. Having “wrong views” enhances the “perception of an unchanging self.” Thus it starts dropping even before the Sotapanna stage.3. It is imperative to appreciate the significance of the removal of ditthis, first with the removal of the ten types of miccha ditthi and then with the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– A huge amount of defilements are removed with the removal of those wrong views.
– “Sakkaya ditthi” is almost the same as “attanuditthi” or the “wrong views of an unchanging self or me.”
– See, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)” and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35. 167).”
– As we know, a Sotapanna gets on the Noble Eightfold Path by just comprehending the “wider worldview” of the Buddha. That leads to the removal of sakkaya ditthi/attanuditthi. Then one realizes that there could be much suffering when born in the apayas. The way one makes causes to be born in the apayas is explained by Paticca Samuppada. When one sees that, one realizes the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world.1 user thanked author for this post.
I did not say I was going to explain Aranavavibhangga Sutta further.
– What specifically needs further explanation? I have given enough clues to figure things out.Thank you very much, Jorg.
I received your email with the suggestions. These suggestions will make the website better and thus help others.
– Much merits for your effort!OK. I understand now.
You wrote in the first post:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What a good/bad time is, (ii) how to stop having a bad time, (iii) and how to have a good time. I chose this word because it doesn’t mean indulging in the “good time” in Korean. I did it because I wanted to explain what I understood with as easy words as possible, but I don’t mind changing it to a more appropriate term.”What if we revise it as:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What peace of mind is, (ii) how to stop a distressing mindset, (iii) and how to maintain a peaceful state of mind.”Is that consistent with what you have in mind?
To get some background information.
1. Do you understand/believe in kamma and kamma vipaka?
2. Do you believe in rebirth?Good to hear that, Jorg!
“The site is full of “Retrieving memories via the mana indriya,” but that it’s also responsible for the storage via the same route, I’ve only seen stated here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, obviously, but for sure it’s not stated as abundantly then.”
If you can suggest pages where this should be explained, that would be great. It is OK to be repetitive because it is easy to miss a post or two while reading on a given subject.
– I may be under the impression that I have discussed enough, but it is hard to remember what I wrote where!OK. I am reading the comments carefully and see a couple of improvements.
#1. “..The mind has to make contact with the nama loka then from the start of the very first pancadvaracitta, because every single memory (and defilement) is there.
That has to be done via the mana indriya as long as our gandhabba is in the physical body. ”Three points of importance:
(i) Our gati/anusaya remains in the hadaya vatthu, the seat of the mind.
(ii) Our memories (nama gotta), kamma bija, bhava remain in the vinnana dhatu (or nama loka). Except for nama gotta, the other entities have energies (below the suddhatthaka stage).
(iii) all rupa above the suddhatthaka stage are in the rupa loka that we all are familiar with.
– So we need to be careful not to confuse memories as anusaya/gati.#2. “One sees one’s favorite food. The sight is recognized and, immediately after, contact with san gati is also made, resulting in the arising of craving (in the form of raga cetasika).”
– To recognize the food, one must recall memories. Thus, the brain and the nama loka are involved in that process.
– But possible attachment to that food comes in the next step of comparing with one’s gati/anusaya. Per (i) above, those gati/anusaya remain with hadaya vatthu.#3 We can roughly describe the time sequence in a cakkhudvara citta vithi as follows.
(i) Cakkhu vinnana captures the visual.
(ii) Sampaticchana matches the visual with memories.
(iii) Santirana compares with one’s gati/anusaya.
(iv) At the votthapana, the mind decides a particular action.
(v) That action is implemented with javana citta. Abhisankhara generation, kamma vinnana formation, speech, and bodily actions originate here.
(vi) If those javana cittas are strong, a “temporary bhavanga state” will prevail after those citta vithis end. But eventually, the bhavanga will return to the “natural bhavanga state.”#4. “Anyway, the transmitter must be the mana indriya.”
– Yes. And that is a critical point. I thought I discussed this in more than one post.I recommend reading the following two posts.
You may reword your questions after reading those posts.
– If anyone else can see the problem (or state it differently,) please feel free to comment.P.S. I just realized that the following thread (esp. at the end) could be helpful:
“The role of memory in pañcadvāra and manōdvāra citta vīthi”If the mind is engaged in a citta vithi, there is no need to get memories from the nama loka.
– The next citta in a citta vithi “builds on” the information in the current citta.
– That is “asevana paccaya” : “Āsēvana and Aññamañña Paccayā“Yes. That is correct.
P.S. The Buddha set an excellent example with how he dealt with Devdatta. As we know, Devadatta remained a bhikkhu until his death. Even after he tried to take the life of the Buddha (and injured him), the Buddha did not even expel Devadatta.
– There is no point in getting into emotional “battles” with those with different views.
– But, one should not hesitate to point out any discrepancies in the opposing arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. It is up to them to examine the evidence presented and decide.
– Once, Devadatta took 500 bhikkhus and left the Buddha. The Buddha sent Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana to advise those bhikkhus. They were able to bring those bhikkhus back.No. That is not what I meant there. It is OK to complement someone’s progress to encourage.
Just below the sentence you quoted, I explained what I meant as follows:
“This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.”
