Question on PañcaUpādānaKhandha …

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    • #38224

      SaññāKhanda means mental impression of saññā of all arammana we have experienced.

      What is meant by saññaupādānakhandha though?

      My guess would be that it is desire to experience some very particular kind of saññā through Rūpa in Rūpaupdānakhanda. This saññā would ofcourse be vipareetha saññā, since if it was correct saññā (i.e. saññā about its tilakkhana nature), we would not have upādāna for that Rūpa. I am not sure here. This is just what I think about it.

      Can we say similarly say for vēdanā, that vedanaupādānakhandha is wanting to keep close the Rūpa which provides those desired vēdanā?


      Another question:

      What is primarily responsible for upādāna out of five khandas?

      If I had to guess I would say that
      having rūpaupādānakhandha is main reason for suffering. The saññā fulfilled by such craved Rūpa would come under saññāupādānakhanda. Vedana and viññana fulfilled by such Rūpa would comes under their respective upādānakhandas And mental impression of all saṅkhāra we do to aquire such Rūpa would come under SaṅkhāraUpādānaKhanda.

      THIS IS GUESSWORK. I AM NOT SURE, ABOUT ANY OF THIS. I was able to infer this much from amount of dhamma I have learnt so far.

      So, We basically want to keep close the whole mental experience of Rūpa in Rūpaupdānakhanda Which leads to birth and to suffering, consequently.

      You have said similar thing in post “introduction to three kinds of suffering”. That it is upādāna for Rūpa which leads to suffering.

    • #38228

      Your thought process is good.

      But can look at it the following way too.

      1. Rupa play a dominant role. For any mental entities to arise, an internal rupa must come to contact with an external rupa.
      – There are six internal rupa and six external. Note that dhammā are rupa too: “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!

      2. Thoughts with “viparita (distorted) sanna” (sanna vipallasa) and “samphassa-ja-vedana” arise COULD arise due to such contacts.
      – Then based on those “mind-made” sanna and vedana, vinnana (future expectations) arise and we engage in abhisankhara that lead to future rebirths and other types of vipaka.

      3. When we recall past events, we recall not only the associated rupa, but also associated four types of mental entities: vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.

      4. Therefore, attachment involves all five aggregates. Thus, panca upadana khandha (pancupadanakkhandha).

    • #38241

      #1 I remember well, that you said that everything we experience through indriya comes under Rūpa. So, I remember it that way. All this indriya used for kamma viññāṇa would be of course salayatana. Giving samphassa.


      Mind made viññana = kammā viññana
      Mind made vēdanā = samphassa-jā-vēdanā

      Mind made saññā = (?) I don’t know.

      Again guess would be that mind made saññā is saññā experienced due to saṅkhāra done under effect of kammā viññana.

      #3 If I am not wrong Saññā and vēdanā are cetasika arising with all the cittā or citta vitthi.

    • #38250

      What I am saying is that we cannot just focus on the rupakkhandha.
      – Attachment to rupa cannot be dissociated from those mental aspects arising from the contacts among external and internal rupa.

      That is why it is “panca upadana khandha” that is dukkha, not just “rupa upadana khandha.”

    • #39080

      Lal said:
      “What I am saying is that we cannot just focus on the rupakkhandha.
      – Attachment to rupa cannot be dissociated from those mental aspects arising from the contacts among external and internal rupa.

      That is why it is “panca upadana khandha” that is dukkha, not just “rupa upadana khandha.””

      It gives me quite a lot of insight. You might want to add this to the post so that everyone else can see it.

    • #39087

      Thanks. I will see which posts will benefit from that.
      – If you have a specific post in mind, please let me know.

    • #39088

      this post

      I think it is adequate post.

    • #39092

      Thanks. I revised #10 there:
      Five Aggregates – Experiences of Each Sentient Being

    • #39101

      Is it correct to think of pañcupādānakkhandhā in the following way:

      pañcupādānakkhandhā is pañcakkhandha such that:

      vedanākkhandha comprises samphassa ja vedanā,
      saññākkhandha comprises avijja, or saññā of nicca, sukha, atta,
      saṅkhārakkhandha comprises abhisaṅkhāra,
      and viññāṇakkhandha comprises kamma viññāṇa.

      Thank you,

    • #39104

      That is an excellent way to put it, Lang!

      Those “mental aspects/qualities” arise when a set of rupa (that once one experienced, plans to experience, or currently experience) is “kept close in one’s mind” (i.e., one has upādāna for them).

      As one progresses on the Noble Path, that set will keep shrinking.
      – An Arahant would not upādāna any component of rupakkhandha.
      – Note that memories of past rupa in rupakkhandha experienced with the mind directly, via “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.” See #4 of, “Vipāka Vēdanā and “Samphassa jā Vēdanā” in a Sensory Event.”
      – Understanding these details lead to getting rid of sakkāya diṭṭhi. See, “Paṭicca Samuppāda – A “Self” Exists Due to Avijjā
      – That whole process is discussed systematically in “Worldview of the Buddha.” The above two posts are part of this section.

      P.S. To emphasize: All attachments start with an ārammaṇa, i.e., sensory contacts between an internal rupa and external rupa. (six types, including mana/dhamma).
      – But attachment happens via all five aggregates of rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa. It is important to see the details as explained by Lang.
      – That is why it is “pañca upādāna khandhā.”

    • #39108

      sadhu sadhu sadhu! Lang has a really great insight. Everyone should be able to see this!

    • #39186

      Yes. Lang’s description requires a good understanding of Paticca Samuppada.

      You can see that most current translators of Paticca Samuppada from Pali to English do not understand these necessary detailed explanations.
      – See, “Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda

      They simply translate “avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇa,” as “Ignorance is a condition for choices. Choices are a condition for consciousness.” Then they translate the Patiloma (Reverse) Paticca Samuppada of “avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho, saṅkhāra nirodhā viññāṇa nirodho” as “When ignorance ceases, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases.”
      That does not make sense since an Arahant would still generate saṅkhāra and would still have consciousness!
      – They need to explain that the niddesa version of Paticca Samuppada is, “avijjā paccayā abhisaṅkhārā, abhisaṅkhāra paccayā kammaviññāṇa,” Several other terms need to be expanded.
      – Then, they need to further explain each term in detail, as I pointed out in my earlier post.

      See, also, “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa

    • #39225

      Just want to share a tip about learning Dhamma: my experience is that if I spell out the niddesa versions for my own notes then I grasp concepts better.

      We are fortunate to have Lal elaborate the uddesa versions of various verses and terms for us, such as:

      vipapka vedana vs samphassa ja vedana
      Mere saṅkhāra vs abhisaṅkhāra
      vipaka viññāṇa vs kamma viññāṇa

      I haven’t seen this level of explanation anywhere else!

      Take paticca samuppada as an example. Using Lal’s explanation of the terms, when I write out different PS cycles in niddesa forms they make a stronger impact in my mind. Hope the same is true for you.

      In the following thread, I wrote out a couple of PS cycles:

      Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada


    • #39258

      Thank you, Lang. It is an excellent summary.

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