[dosakkhayo]

Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?

the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana?

or elsewhere?

[Lal]

Lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha ARE the PRIMARY six causes.

[dosakkhayo]

OK. I was confused because I had interpreted the word “primary” as “most important”. But it was actually meant by “most basic” or “not coming from or dependent on something else”. So now I got it. Lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha do not belong to dhatu. Instead, six dhatu come from the six hetu.

But here is another question.

Those six hetu causes everything in 31 realms. i.e. Paramatta Dhamma(except nibbana) are caused by six hetu.

But lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa (except amoha) is also cetasika.

So I guess there are some contextual differences between the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa as a cetasika and the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha as a six hetu.

Let me know what it is.

[Lal]

“So I guess there are some contextual differences between the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa as a cetasika and the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha as a six hetu.”

Why cannot they be in both categories?
– Defilements are what lead to future births. Those defilements ARE the bad types of cetasika (asobhana cetasika).
– As one progresses on the Noble Path, the possibility for those “bad cetasika” to arise in one’s mind is gradually reduced. Eventually, one would have the panna cetasika optimized, and not a single bad (or asobhana) cetasika will arise in one’s mind. That is the Arahant stage.

You are confusing paramatta Dhamma with those present in one’s mind. If all paramatta Dhamma must be with a person, they will never attain Nibbana.

[dosakkhayo]

“Why cannot they be in both categories?
– Defilements are what lead to future births. Those defilements ARE the bad types of cetasika (asobhana cetasika).”

The reason why I thought they cannot be in both categories is (i) there is no amoha cetasika (ii) the amoha cetasika is not paññā.

Cetasika – Connection to Gati

“10. However, amoha does not mean wisdom (paññā)! Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause. It is in all kusala citta in the sense that the immoral cetasika of moha is not present at that moment, i.e., the mind is not “covered.””

–
But OK. The six hetu and cetasika overlap each other. Now I got it.

So amoha is just an absence of moha. Therefore, according to the law that the sobana cetasika and asobana cetasika cannot be together at the same time, when one do kusala or punna kamma there is no moha in one’s mind, because moha is universal asobana cetasika. Thus there is amoha, because of containing no moha. Right?

–
“You are confusing paramatta Dhamma with those present in one’s mind. If all paramatta Dhamma must be with a person, they will never attain Nibbana.”

I don’t get the context why you tell me that. I’ve already known that all paramatta Dhamma cannot be with a person.

The point that I’m actually confused about is “amoha is the lokiya version of paññā. And paññā is the lokkuttara version of amoha.” This comment is in here. In the korean puredhamma forum

I’m confused because lal said “Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause.”

So, to sum up, amoha is not only the absence of moha but also the expression of extent of paññā cetasika. Right?

[Lal]

I have been trying to respond to your original comment:
“Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?
the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana?
or elsewhere?”

That comment did not make any sense.

What is the issue that you are trying to get at?
– I don’t know the conversation at the Korean Puredhamma site because I cannot read Korean.
– If you want to ask me a question, just ask that question.

[dosakkhayo]

“Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?
the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana? or elsewhere?”

The reason why I asked the question is I had been confused by there is no amoha cetasika.

In that time, it was not clear for me that the six hetu and cetasika overlap each other.

So I tried to find any intersection point between six hetu and another concept.

In the process, I asked the question here. I also thought this question was ridiculous, but I tried it. This wasn’t because I didn’t understand the concept of six dhatu, it was just a try to know the concept of six hetu.

[dosakkhayo]

If you want to ask me a question, just ask that question.
– OK. I’m sorry for making the matter too complicated.

[Lal]

dosakkhayo wrote: “The reason why I asked the question is I had been confused by there is no amoha cetasika.”

OK. I understand the issue that you trying to resolve.

It is the paññā cetasika that “represents” amoha. But paññā would be absent until one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami by starting to comprehend Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– That is also why avijjā is defined as “not understanding the Four Noble Truths.” See “Avijjā Sutta (SN 56.17).”: “Yaṁ kho, bhikkhu, dukkhe aññāṇaṁ, dukkhasamudaye aññāṇaṁ, dukkhanirodhe aññāṇaṁ, dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya aññāṇaṁ—
ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhu, avijjā;.”
– Thus, until avijjā starts fading one would ONLY have “mundane amoha” instead of paññā.

I will make an expanded explanation in the other thread “What is the knowing which Sotapanna cannot lose even beyond death?”
– I think you raised the same question in a different way there.
– Let me think about how best to explain the issue there.

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