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Saddhu saddhu saddhu Lang and others for guiding / teaching others the Buddha dhamma. May you, the one’s you’re guiding and all of us living beings attain the Supreme peace and freedom of Nibbana.
Hi Lang,
I agree with your assessment that the chart in the “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma” post can definitely help to explain more easily the various stages of liberation or enlightenment and give an idea where one is on the path. Someone that’s competent in the Buddha dhamma or an ariya that explains the different parts of the chart, I believe it can help the listener / learner to understand the processes involved and differences between the mundane and transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. This chart can also give the learner a road map to follow and can be used as a comparison of one’s past and current experiences while one is walking either on the mundane or transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. The chart (used as a road map or a reflection of one’s current and past experiences) can also possibly increase the readers / listeners / learners confidence and motivation by showing them that they are indeed walking / following on the right path in either achieving their mundane spiritual goals or to attaining Nibbana.
I’ll also add the chart can also be used to explain the difference between the “real” Buddhism and other religions. When someone that can give give a proper / good explanation of the chart like the written materials included in the post of this discussion. I believe it makes it very clear to see the differences between the “real” Buddhist and other religions practices. As well it would be difficult for listeners / learner to refute what’s being explained. But of course people can always think of foolish refutes.
My view / opinion is that the English words awakening, enlightenment, and nibbana are still a bit abstract for the majority of today’s spiritual practitioners and can possibly lead to some confusion, especially to people that are not familiar with the Buddha dhamma. For example, the majority of non-Buddhist today would automatic incline to think the word “awakening” applies to any spiritual person or yogis or anyone that can spew some esoteric or obscure teachings or have proclaimed some form of attainments such as jhana’s. This was my experience anyways while I was learning “new age” materials and sometimes still see it today. I believe it would be beneficial to try to clarify those words and come up with ways according to our understanding of the Buddha dhamma to try to sort out these words for the learner. Trying to explain what nibbana is or why one should put effort into attaining nibbana to a puthujjana, is not an easy task, but can be done partially with the right mundane wordings. As well nibbana is something that only an ariya would have some or full understanding depending on their ariya attainments. I don’t fault people for not understanding it properly or why one should strive to attain Nibbana. It’s like from a sutta, where a householder said to the Buddha. (My wording might not be the most accurate, but my general understanding was this) “For householders giving up sensual pleasure, is unappealing as jumping off a cliff”
– “This is also why Lal had a post about how a sotapanna is better off than a king or a billionaire.”
If I were to mention some details on how the majority of billionaires, people in power, famous people, etc get into their positions in our current times this becomes more apparent. What I have come to learn / seen / understood / know is that in our current times and going forward millions to billions of years from now on this planet. Anyone that lives a regular life, even though one might be poor, struggling to make ends meet or even being homeless, the majority of time one is still better off than being a king, billionaire, in power or being famous in this world. This can change (mundanely) though when the majority of humanity on this planet thoughts, speech, and actions inclines towards the wholesome side. But this doesn’t really matter since no matter what direction the world heads in, it’s still anicca, dukkha, anatta. The word “decadence” is actually a pretty good word to describe the current state of affairs of humans on this planet and about anicca nature.
I can’t remember exactly when and who wrote a post that I came across here in the forums, but someone mentioned / hinted (very subtly) of some very mundane dark things that’s taking place in this world that people have no idea about or can even imagine it’s happening, even for people with intelligence and wisdom. I’m not sure if others understood fully what was being said, it’s not essential to the path anyways. But I exactly knew what this person was saying. Now that I think about it, I should’ve at least replied to show that person he / she is not alone on here that has some idea what’s the current mundane state of affairs of this world. I don’t know how that person feels with what they know, but from my own experience, it’s one of the most saddest, frustrating experience that one has to goes through. Imagine not really being able to say anything to protect / help your love one’s, the people you care about or even people you come across in our everyday lives what’s really being done to them, their families and pretty much 90% plus of this world’s population. The thing is even if people knew, there’s really nothing one can do about it, besides practicing the Buddha dhamma. The Buddha dhamma is the only refuge, protection, shelter one has in / from this world.
I’m not sure if these inputs are what you and others are looking for but hopefully it can help in any way possible.
Thank you for the feedback and comments Venerable Sir,
I know this might be a little far fetch, but could the word “jhana” also have a meaning of “being in the state of taking in the Noble 8 fold path to burn defilements”?
Jha = to burn, ana (from anapanasati)? = taking in the Noble 8 fold path.
I’m wondering what’s others opinion and feedback on what I just mentioned?
This is one example of how broken Buddhism is today.
“They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Variant: ānāpānassati → ānāpānasati (bj, pts1ed)
Yeah . . .
May everyone be well,
In the Tapussa Sutta, the Buddha mentioned about seeing the benefits of infinite space (ākāsānañcāyatane), infinite consciousness (viññāṇañcāyatane), dimension of nothingness (ākiñcaññāyatane), and dimension of neither perception nor non-perception (nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ).
I’m wondering what are the benefits of those arupa jhana’s? Or does it mention anywhere in the sutta’s the benefits of each those 4 arupa jhana’s?
Thanks
Lal: “vinnana to the trunk of a banana tree (which has no “hardcore” or essence); one becomes tired at the end.”
– At my current understanding, “harāyati” means something similar. Are interpretations and explanations like; no essence / essenceless, no intrinsic value, worthless, meaningless and others is the right concepts used to explain the meaning of harāyati? There seems to be a connection to anatta as well?
Recently I came across an article that mentioned similar information.
In this article, it mentions similar things, in addition to some possible challenges scientists that are critical of the Big Bang theory face from their peers and the “establishment”.
“By the way, I am quite impressed by the progress of LayDhammaFollower. I learned that he is only 23 years old. Sadhu! Sadhu!! Sadhu!!!”
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! LayDhammaFollower. When I was 23 years old, I was playing video games and partying my life a way.
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! dosakkhayo, nice catch and noticing.
May all of us living beings attain the supreme peace and freedom of Nibbana
I came across a discussion here at Puredhamma a few weeks back. I’m not sure if it’s completely relevant to this discussion, but I thought it might have some minor relevance.
“Wrong English translations of Aniccha, Anatta, Sakkaya ditthi… etc”
About 4/5 down the page, there’s a list of contemplation objects based on aniccānupassanā, dukkhānupassanā, anattānupassanā.
In the Petakopadesa post where Lal mentions “There are even more words used to describe anicca in another Tipitaka Commentary. It is not necessary to analyze each of them”.
I’m not sure if Lal was mentioning about this commentary (Patisambhidamagga)? For my own practice, I don’t / haven’t contemplated on all those contemplation objects. I thought it can be of benefit to a Buddha dhamma practitioner to be at least exposed to it.
Much merits Lal for the alternative translation! This has provided me with new insights into understanding more about anicca nature.
What I noticed is that here at Puredhamma, one of the posts mentioned Aniccam khayatthena. “Because one’s hope for enjoying (rupa and the other aggregates) will only lead to one’s demise (aniccam khayatthena).” Now seeing in the Petakopadesa mentioning something similar on how anicca nature induces one to engage in immoral deeds. I believe a connection I was able to make between the two concept or words “sampapana” and “aniccam khayatthena” is:
“Due to anicca nature of the 5 aggregates, it induces one to engage in immoral deeds (sampapana). (One of the reasons why anicca nature induces one to engage in immoral deeds is because we’re never able to fulfill our wishes / desires / likes, etc and we keep trying to especially through akusala deeds) and if one desires or hopes to enjoy / obtain the 5 aggregates that’s of anicca nature, it will lead one to demise (aniccam khayatthena).
This is an observation that I made, I thought I would share it.
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The question to be asked is: “Is there a way to check who is teaching the correct Dhamma?”
The only way to do that is to “find holes” in a given interpretation.
– If I may add, through one’s practice as well.
What I can say is that the Buddha dhamma that I learned from Venerable Waharaka Thero, here (Puredhamma Lal), other Puredhamma participants here and other thero’s / teachers that teaches the dhamma that leads to nibbana. I can clearly see the change in my mano, vaci, kaya sankhara’s compared to 10,5,1 years ago and recently, the change has been quite dramatic . . .
On DW, I pretty much almost went through most of the comments (not all) in the topic about the teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero. As much as I can see, pretty much no one was able to refute (to my satisfaction) on what Lal posted on there. I wrote extra information about this, but decided to delete it since there’s no benefit for me to say more about this topic.
Anyways . . .I feel the Buddha dhamma situation out there is quite the mess . . . People not being taught properly; when the chance to learn and comprehend the dhamma that leads to nibbana comes, many are not able to see and use it. Through my browsing experience through Buddhist forums, I often see many . . . repeating questions being asked, some none beneficial or important and some is just a total waste of time and mind energy. Some discussions end up in arguments, with commitment of vaci abhisankhara involved. It seems likes some are there to “have fun”
It’s like . . . they go there to learn or have fun . . . but end up blocking their own path to Nibbana through akusala mula p.s. Never really thought about this deeply, but now typing this, I’m asking myself does it make sense to do something like this?But ya . . . it’s quite . . . depressing and disheartening (best way that I can put this, but not really since I have been down this road so so many times before . . . even in the mundane world ) to see the current state of the Buddha dhamma and the practitioners of the Buddha Dhamma. Recently, I came across a post that shared a part of a translated sutta, I never knew such a translation was out there.
asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Variant: ānāpānassati → ānāpānasati (bj, pts1ed)”
“They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
There are many more people out there that know more Pali and read the sutta’s more than me. But after seeing how those “bhavana’s are being translated into English, I was kinda shocked . . . It’s up to each person to decide what is right / correct for them . . .But my own understanding of those “translated bhavana’s” is totally different than what’s being translated as.
So fortunate . . . to be able to come across other explanations / teachings that makes sense, different from what’s usually taken at face value . . . Otherwise, I might try to see ugliness in everything and get patigha or try to huff and puff my way to Nibbana.
At our current time, coming across and being able to see / comprehend some truths from the Buddha, Dhamma, “Sangha”, Venerable Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero, Puredhamma (Lal), us forum participants here, and other teachers of similar Dhamma. I feel / know that we are some of the most fortunate living beings in this world. May we all satta’s be able to come across the Buddha dhamma that helps us to attain and attain the supreme peace and freedom of Nibbana.
Thanks
Based on what you shared and the suttacentral translation, some additional words / idea I thought up for vivicceva kāmehi” and “vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”. Disengaged, dissociate, breaking away, withdraw and there’s possibly others.
You mentioned “In the fourth Ariya jhana, basically, all anusaya are absent, including the avijja anusaya.”
I take it that only Arahants and the Buddha can attain the fourth Ariya jhana?
I have been contemplating about certain dhamma concepts these last few days and it does have some connection to what Dipobhasadhamma mentioned here.
Dipohasadhamma mentioned “I am (at present) at a loss for WHAT this seed of consciousness is”.
I would like to share a comment for scrutiny. From what I have understood and in one of the simplest way I can describe what “seed of consciousness is” or “what” we are on the most fundamental level (to make a long story short) is that it’s “packets of energy” (karmic energy) with avija and tanha. From this packets of energy with avija and tanha, it give rise to our world. While that I’m typing this, I believe I can also call this “packets of energy” with avija and tanha the hadaya vatthu or a satta or kamma bija and probably some other names.
I’m not sure if this helps, but in a Venerable Waharaka Thero youtube discourse where I seen the similar analyses and it’s probably the same video Tobias mentioned. It’s mentioned in English subtitles.
“Petakopadesaya – an important atuwa book also contains this analysis. Also Patisambhidamaggaprakara volumes analyze these concepts similarly”
In addition to what Tobais mentioned about viparinama dukkha and annatha, my thinking is that viparinama dukkha is “expected changes” to one what dislikes / not wish or desire for. Such as old age, sickness, death, being separated from what one likes and having to associate with one dislikes. Since we know that any sankata will eventually evolve towards decay and destruction (vayo sankata lakkhanan), that’s why I believe viparinama dukkha is “expected changes”.
While a sankata is in existence, it’s subjected to “unexpected changes” and if these unexpected changes are not to our liking or not what we wish or desire for, then that cause us dukkha dukkha. (titthassa sankata lakkhanan).
Yesterday when I was contemplating on this subject, I was able to see another / additional way of describing what dukkha dukkha is and how anicca is connected to dukkha dukkha. As well using the tilakkhanan and the first noble truth to connect with the 3 sankata lakkhanan (although I could be mistaken).
