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Scientists are examining the new and better pictures of the universe taken with the James Webb Space Telescope launched on 25 December 2021.
There COULD BE evidence from these pictures that the Big Bang Theory may not be the correct explanation for our universe. These new pictures MAY BE revealing that there are stars older than the age of the universe predicted by the Big Bang Theory.
There are pending publications (that have NOT been peer-reviewed yet) saying that these pictures invalidate the Big Bang Theory. But we need to wait and see until those papers are reviewed. If proven, this will have significant repercussions for science in general and physics in particular.
I did a Google search and came up with more information:
“James Webb telescope Big Bang“1 user thanked author for this post.
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Recently I came across an article that mentioned similar information.
In this article, it mentions similar things, in addition to some possible challenges scientists that are critical of the Big Bang theory face from their peers and the “establishment”.
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The video I posted earlier, “Webb Telescope detects Object older than The Big Bang, Current theories fail to explain this” has been taken off. Here is another entitled, “James Webb Telescope Just Discovered a Huge Structure That Is Older than the Universe!”:
There could be evidence that (i) stars older than the predicted age of the universe exist and (ii) expansion of the universe may not be true.
– However, scientists will take time to make certain of their conclusions before discarding the current “Big Bang Theory.” Many scientists have spent their whole lives working on the Big Bang Theory.-
Dear Lal and others,
I think what Ajahn Brahmavamso mentioned about scientists being in their comfort zones and unable or unwiling to move out of those zones maybe a factor for the continuing “popularity” of the Big Bang theory. Plus they have an unlikely ally in the Catholic Church, maybe due to the “ex-nihilo” nature of the “Big Bang” Universe.
The Buddha is supposed to have said that only really intelligent people can grasp the Dhamma. I think others (even some eminent scientists) are not willing to look outside the box, having based their entire lives and reputations on the Big Bang and other established theories. This is just an aspect of the “puthujjana” mindset to which all of us un-enlightened beings are usually dragged into.
With Mettha,
Ravi.
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1. It is human nature to defend one’s belief to the end.
- However, scientists are trained to follow the experimental evidence.
- Once there is enough undeniable evidence, they will start looking for a better explanation.
- We may have to wait for the next generation telescope to “see even further into the universe” and see stars much older than 14 billion years.
2. The other “domino to fall” will be the wrong belief that humans “evolved from the monkeys.”
- Things in this world NEVER go from “worse to better” naturally, i.e., without an effort. That is the “anicca nature.”
- If we want to make life better, we have to invent new technologies by spending time and effort. That is part of the “sankhara dukkha“!
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So how do scientists observe that galaxies are moving away ( Hubble Law)?
Dear Yash RS,
It is I think necessary to mention here that the Buddha said about Vivattha Kappa and Sanvattha Kappa – the periods when this observable part of our Universe (as well as the other parts of the “Multiverse” if you will) Expand and Contract.
So in the Vast Scheme of things, the Expansion that the Astronomers are observing could be a Temporary phenomenon (Billions of years but temporary). Both the Observable Universe and the Universal lifespan predictions given are but as grains of sand when compared to Infinity and Eternity.
With Mettha,
Ravi.
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Dear Yash RS great question #46892
Such questions often come me to mind, even though they shouldn’t. The Buddha said that if you are concerned with the universe, you cannot live the Holy Life.
It’s funny. That they called the formula by Edwin Hubble constant because it is not so constant after all. Because instead of the 70km/(s*Mpc). You can use 60 as well because it always depends on which direction you look and what the mass distribution of two densely lying galaxies is. This is because they can show different values. So if the teacher asks whether you can also use the value 60 km/(s*Mpc). You can safely say yes, you can. It should also be noted. This is what the masses of physicists have postulated. Edwin Hubble said; “It looks more like,… “.
The galaxies always stay in the same place. It’s just space-time that’s expanding. And the redshift? It is correct to the extent that the Big Bang is. ;-) There is nothing to shake about the mathematical formula, it is the work of a genius.
Halton Arp, a former employee of E.H., had a whole collection of anomalies that contradict the redshift. See Wiki Halton Arp.(1.)
As a Buddhist, I would answer this question like this. The question is not worthy of a noble man! And the question should be whether? How then does one access external matter? And the answer should be. By forming Gati, about this matter. And how do you form Gati? By using (Abhi) Sankhara over this outer Rupa, this thinking can further be rolled on… , leading to IPS and PS…. It’s a role . So how could a noble person care about Gati, about this far away Rupa? A noble person knows that “pañcupādānakkhandha is not mine.” The deeper meaning is with the inner and outer Rupa, she is with Nama and Rupa, connected in a deeper sense. But to understand the deeper meaning, we have to wait for further comments from Lal. So, the further away these galaxies are. The earlier beings began to think about these galaxies. It’s a rolling of thoughts that “area/31 Loka”. These thoughts with Gati that lead to an ārammaṇa. Which contains the entity spirit, and with the entity spirit, the thought arises. cittas. But since we don’t have a Gati for this matter, we can’t use it. And with the education and further development of our Gati. Let’s move further away from the Rupa/galaxies. So the ārammaṇa moves away from us. So we only have one Sanna for galaxy.
Now, I have to go further.(2.)
On the night the Buddha became enlightened, he gained the ability to see his past lives. And he went back millions of years. Why did he go back? To see the beginning? Which beginning? That of emergence, entity spirit. But he couldn’t see that beginning, for this beginning lies hidden in infinity. But we know that even with infinity, according to mathematics and philosophy, that a beginning is there. And this beginning, would it have to be the emergence of the entity spirit? And on the entity spirit, the thought citta arises. And Citta is so fast. You have to keep this in mind over and over again. Not even our great master, the Buddha, who could explain so well, could find an analogy for this speed of a citta. Because everything you see, for example, if you sit in a room and look at the entire room, are Citta, via Kamma Vipka. Kamma Vipaka is energy. And E=mc² says mass can become energy and vice versa.(3.)
If we have Gati, for this Kamma Vipaka, it becomes ārammaṇa, which we bring in with Citta and the five aggregates. And the average person only has that Sanna. “Galaxy” and you can’t get it because we don’t have the Gati. Without san Gati, you could do anything. For time is an illusion that is connected with the pañcakkhandha and the Nama Loka and the quality of the mind, which is, so to speak, like a chameleon that looks on both sides of the Namarupa and acts between and with the Nama and Rupa.(4.)
This Gati, which we would need to see the most distant galaxies, would have to be at least 15 billion years old and would have been formed by gods down to humans, with countless rolling cittas across several of the 31 realms.(5.)
Light quanta are carriers of the ārammaṇa, and very distant ārammaṇa or galaxies require very old Gati. We find them in Nama loka. The energy of the light quantum is only sufficient for r0, which is why we cannot look further back to see even older galaxies. At this point, I can’t say exactly what this has to do with. Be it gravity or another type of energy that removes the energy from the light quantum or wave.(6.)
To make it short,
“we have to change the Lorenz factor, which leads to time dilation.” That means our mind has to enter the Arupa Loka, probably with jhanas that precede a previous intention, and out again in distant galaxies, into our world i.e. into the Kama Loka, area five.
I read somewhere that in the Brahma world one day is like a thousand here and vice versa. But I’m not sure where it was.
It’s all very abstract and shouldn’t be taken too seriously. But that’s how time travel works, and I wouldn’t try it; there’s no return ticket. :-PSo it’s better to take the route to Nibbana about the four steps Magga Phala. :)
P.S. Dear Ravi777,
in which sutta does the Buddha say this; “Buddha said about Vivattha Kappa and Sanvattha Kappa – the periods in which this observable part of our universe (as well as the other part)”?
I ask for the reference.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Dear Tobi,
Please refer this link.
Kazal Barua – The Process of the Evolution of Society in Buddhism and Marxism.pdf (thanhsiang.org)
It is in the Kappa Sutta according to the above reference, and also I think in the Anagatha Vamsaya.
With Mettha,
Ravi777
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The word Kappa is also given as Kalpa on Wikipedia:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Temporal_cosmology
With Mettha,
Ravi777
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1. The “saṁvaṭṭa” and “vivaṭṭa” phases of the 10,000- star systems (meaning 10,000 planetary systems like our Solar system) are briefly described in the “Kappa Sutta (AN 4.156).”
- However, the terms “saṁvaṭṭa” and “vivaṭṭa” are wrongly translated in the English translation in the link as “contraction” and “expansion.”
- That does not refer to a “speedy separation” of “star systems or cakkavala.” It refers to the “destruction” and “reformation” of those “star systems.”
2. This is what I described in the post “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” per the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” I have linked to the place in the sutta where the two phases (“saṁvaṭṭa” and “vivaṭṭa“) are discussed.
- Here “saṁvaṭṭa” refers to the phase where the Earth is destroyed together with the Sun and 10,000 other stars that are close by (but the higher-lying Brahma realms survive.)
- In the “vivaṭṭa” phase, the Earth is reformed together with the Sun and close by 10,000 other stars. Then those Brahmas come back to the lower-lying realms gradually, over time.
- That cycle repeats endlessly, according to the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
3. What the scientists are measuring is not the movement of a cluster of 10,000 star systems but the “expansion of space itself.” However, I believe this is a misconception. They must have made a fundamental error in their assumption.
- According to this model, even galaxies –with millions of cakkavala in EACH galaxy — are moving away from each other at a rapid rate. That seems to make no sense to me.
- This model is currently facing contradictions, especially with the recently launched Webb telescope, as pointed out in the videos above.
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I think some important questions should be asked here. Is space-time really “space-time” or are they actually separate things being distorted by our limited perception?
Rather than saying that the Big Bang is the beginning of space-time (what conventional science currently believes), it might have been the case that time is beyond space, and space is not what we think it is as “rooms” but rather just a collection of networks of matter.
So in this model, the beginning of the universe is not the Big Bang, but rather the Big Bang is thought to be the beginning because scientific instruments cannot detect matter beyond the violent explosion of the Big Bang. In this model time is also not part of one thing called space-time (Einstein’s block universe) but rather we perceive space and time as one because so far there hasn’t been scientific evidence that there is a matter that sits beyond time.
This model is consistent with the 31 realms. Brahma realms actually sit above our “universe” since he lived longer than 13 billion years (thought to be the age of the universe since the Big Bang), but even though they are older, they are still bound by time and time relativity to other realms, so there is time above time.
This video below is very useful, relevant discussion starting from 19:00
https://youtu.be/ERq4Kb0aPfc?t=1153
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1. The point is that the proposed theory of a “Big Bang” is just a theory. Recent data from the new telescope launched last year indicates possible contradictions with that theory.
- Did you read the first few posts at the beginning of this thread?
2. According to the Buddha, there was no “Big Bang” beginning.
- See “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
- Bullet #7 from that post:
“7. The Solar system will last another 5 billion or so. Thus the total time in the existence of the current Sun (and Earth) is about 10 billion years, according to modern science. That is the existence phase lasting 20 kappā, assuming that the current scientific estimate is correct.
- The other three kappā take 10 billion years each, which is how the time for a complete cycle takes 40 billion years.
- The Earth (and the whole Solar system) continues through this cyclic process that takes roughly 40 billion years per cycle, i.e., for a mahā kappa (with the above assumption.)
- This cycle will keep repeating. There was no “Big Bang” beginning.”
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The fact is that in reality Time doesn’t exist at all!
There are only causes and effects and our mind perceives everything to be as a fixed entity, therefore it draws a line to join all those changing events in that object and that line is said to be the “time”.
Time is just our perception.
So I don’t know how science will go further with the “space-time” theory since it doesn’t really “exist” it’s just the mind’s perception.
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Hello Yash RS,
They say, “The fact is that time doesn’t actually exist at all!”
Sorry, that is not right, in my opinion, because time exists.
Time is a law of nature and it is related to the expanding space of matter and the idea or goal inherent in matter, which is controlled by Kamma Vipaka.
With the essence spirit we can experience three types of time. These are future, present and past. Past, but only with “Abhinna powers” and kamma energy in the form of pancupādānakkhandha. Time is a component of saññā and is part of Anicca nature. Even an arahant experiences time.Time is not present in Nibbana. If that is what they meant, the statement is true again.
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Hello Yash RS,
They say, “The fact is that time doesn’t actually exist at all!”
Sorry, that is not right, in my opinion, because time exists.
Time is a law of nature and it is related to the expanding space of matter and the idea or goal inherent in matter, which is controlled by Kamma Vipaka.
With the essence spirit we can experience three types of time. These are future, present and past. Past, but only with “Abhinna powers” and kamma energy in the form of pancupādānakkhandha. Time is a component of saññā and is part of Anicca nature. Even an arahant experiences time.Time is not present in Nibbana. If that is what they meant, the statement is true again.
That is what I am saying.
Time is just a perception, saying Past, Present and Future is nothing but perception, it’s ok to use these terms in a conventional way but in absolute way there is no “time like entity”.
What is time by the way? Can anyone define what exactly is time ? It can be defined via Dhamma.
There are causes and effects, that’s all! And our perception that a “fixed entity” is changing leads us to connect all those changing events and we say “Time is passing”.
People with Abhinna powers can see their “past lives” because they are in the namagota in the vinnana if I am correct, those too were “changing events” but we perceive that the same person has undergone those changes and we again perceive that there is time.
You said that it is inherent in matter. That’s what cause and effect is! We Perceive that the “same object” is changing there because we perceive things to be fixed.
Obviously in Nibbana, nothing is changing, so a perception of time will also be not present.
Correct me if I am wrong🙏🙏
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I add…
For me, the goal inherent in sankhata/matter means Kāma Guna.Then we would have to agree with the Mahayanists, who always discuss Dependent Arising when discussing cause and effect?
But would you agree with me if I said, “According to the Dhamma, it should be said that created causes have an effect through the creation of Kamma with the six “san“s? If that were not the case, Nibbana would not exist, or we would be unable to attain Nibbana.
P.S.
The funny thing is that in physics, t is used for time: t= time
In the Dhamma, the word also has a t at the beginning, which creates time. -
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I am not sure discussing this issue helps cultivate the path.
- The Buddha repeatedly mentioned the following: “I only teach about suffering, how it arises, and how it can be overcome.”
- Unless someone can show how this discussion about time is related to the above statement, I don’t even want to think about this issue.
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I thought about the issue of time a little bit.
- Of course, time is real (not an illusion). But it is likely that the “perception of how fast time goes by” may be relative.
- For example, a day in a specific Deva realm corresponds to many years in the human realm. See “Visākhā Sutta (AN 8.43).”
- As stated there (@6.4 marker), “Sixteen hundred years in the human realm is one day and night in the paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm.”
- Even among animals, we can have a wide variety of lifetimes. Some flies live only a week. Their time must be passing much more slowly compared to us.
It is OK to have a general idea about these facts.
- My point was that spending too much effort on these issues takes time away from more critical issues like understanding “distorted sanna.” That is one of the critical issues that can significantly impact one’s practice. It truly helps eliminate sakkaya ditthi (that the world can offer happiness; instead, any such enjoyment is “mind-made” and not real) as well kama raga.
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Please Excuse me for going back to the “Big Bang”, but if its errors are to be accepted by Main Stream Science, then probably a Jesuit or some top guy from the Vatican may have to lead it.
Science and the Catholic Church – Wikipedia
With Mettha,
ravi
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The Church’s (Vatican) influence on science issues is no longer there. Of course, it led to Galileo’s death in the 1600s because his scientific findings were deemed to “go against the Church.”
- There is not yet enough concrete evidence to discard the “Big Bang theory. ” If the evidence is irrefutable, scientists will give it up.
- I believe that will happen within the next few years.
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Sadly dear Lal, I also think there is another factor involved here.
As the great Ajahn Brahm said about Scientists:
“I used to be a scientist. I did Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University, hanging out in the same building as the later-to-be-famous Professor Stephen Hawking. I became disillusioned with such science when, as an insider, I saw how dogmatic some scientists could be. A dogma, according to the dictionary, is an arrogant declaration of an opinion. This was a fitting description of the science that I saw in the labs of Cambridge. Science had lost its sense of humility. Egotistical opinion prevailed over the impartial search for Truth. My favourite aphorism from that time was:
“The eminence of a great scientist, is measured by the length of time that they OBSTRUCT PROGRESS in their field”!”
Reference:
BUDDHISM, THE ONLY REAL SCIENCE (dhammikaweb.com)
Unfortunately the Ego of Scientists also plays a part today. Besides, we also have to remember that funding Agencies are mainly from Western Nations with Christian bacgrounds (maybe we will have to wait till an Eastern Counry like China or Japan gets into Science funding in a Big way).
Also, remember how the “Goddamned Particle” became the “GOD particle”. So the overall picture “Markettable” to Collective Western Christian Consciousness also counts.
Then again, it maybe the Anicca and Anatta traits of the world which prevent the majority of people from seeing the truth. We like the people of the world to accept the Buddhist worldview, but what we like does not happen, atleast not when we want them to. The Buddha said that His Dhamma is only for those with the required Intelligence. We are also cautioned in the Kalama Sutta against accepting “Traditional” knowledge, which even scientists seem to be doing.
We will need the next Galileo or Einstein to come along !
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Of course, time is real (not an illusion). But it is likely that the “perception of how fast time goes by” may be relative. For example, a day in a specific Deva realm corresponds to many years in the human realm. See “Visākhā Sutta (AN 8.43).”
Regarding the discussion of Time, I was thinking about the incentive of ending the rebirth process while pondering the length of a mahakappa (4 kappa). Apayas exist for only 1 kappa which means for 75% of time beings are in the Abhassara Brahma realm where suffering is minimal. Of course 1 kappa is utterly long and suffering in the apaya for billions of years would be insane. But it seems like even though the lifetimes of higher realms are long from our perspective, it isn’t as long from the perspective of beings that live there. So it is safe to say that the majority of “time” is spent in the apayas in the rebirth process.
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Yes. It is a good topic for “insight meditation.”
1. A maha kappa consists of four “asaṅkhyeyya kappas” or ‘incalculable periods.” That will help your point, “Of course 1 kappa is utterly long and suffering in the apaya for billions of years would be insane,” to sink into the mind.
- See “Kappa Sutta (AN 4.156).”
2. We can visualize it as follows: Suppose the following offer is made: You can have the most luxurious vacation possible for nine months, but you will be subjected to unimaginable suffering for almost three months.
- That is the equivalent of a sentient-being spending three “asaṅkhyeyya kappas” without suffering and almost one “asaṅkhyeyya kappa” in the apayas. That is because the time spent in all “good realms” (averaged over many maha kappas) is insignificant compared to the time spent in the apayas. See #8 of “Cuti and Marana – Related to Bhava and Jāti.”
- The other problem is that the cycle keeps repeating. It does not end until a magga phala is attained.
3. If one spends some time contemplating this, one would be incentivized to make the best effort to attain a magga phala!
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