- This topic has 5 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 6 months, 1 week ago by Lal.
June 17, 2022 at 11:21 pm #38114
So evaṁ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte āsavānaṁ khayañāṇāya cittaṁ abhininnāmesiṁ.
When my mind had immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements.
#1. Any different translation or is that mostly accurate?
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘abhijānāmi kho panāhaṁ pitu sakkassa kammante sītāya jambucchāyāya nisinno vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharitā.
‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
#2. What I’m interested in is the pali word / words that is used to translate the words “quite secluded and secluded”. Is there a different translation than “quite secluded” from sensual pleasures?
June 18, 2022 at 6:07 am #38116
Those Pali words in question are: “vivicceva kāmehi” and “vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”.
In the English translation that you quoted those are translated as: “Quite secluded from sensual pleasures” and “secluded from unskillful qualities.”
– So it does not make sense to have “quite secluded” in one and “secluded” in the other.
That verse in almost all suttas on Ariya and anariya jhana.
– We could translate those words as: “separated from sensuality/sensual thoughts” and “separated from akusala/akusala thoughts.”
1. In anariya jhana, one keeps the mind away from those thoughts of sensual pleasures (kama sankappa) by forcing the mind to focus on a neutral object like a kasina object/breath. They also stay from doing akusala kamma. However, kama raga anusaya is in them, and they have miccha ditthi, i.e., ditthi anusaya as well as avijja anusaya is in them.
2. In the first Ariya jhana, kama raga anusaya is absent, and also the ditthi anusaya is absent. In the fourth Ariya jhana, basically, all anusaya are absent, including the avijja anusaya.
3. So, you can see that “separated from sensual thoughts” and “separated from akusala thoughts” have VERY DIFFERENT meanings in Ariya and anariya jhana.
– It is a matter of “level of separation.”
– One can compare an anariya jhana to a coal fire that has been put out to the level that no flames can be seen. But hot coals remain and the fire can ignite again; also one can still feel the warmth.
– On the other hand, with anusaya removed, it is like a fire that has been put out by pouring water over it. The cooling down is complete and no fires can re-start.
June 18, 2022 at 9:08 pm #38118
Based on what you shared and the suttacentral translation, some additional words / idea I thought up for vivicceva kāmehi” and “vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”. Disengaged, dissociate, breaking away, withdraw and there’s possibly others.
You mentioned “In the fourth Ariya jhana, basically, all anusaya are absent, including the avijja anusaya.”
I take it that only Arahants and the Buddha can attain the fourth Ariya jhana?
June 19, 2022 at 6:18 am #38123
That is possibly correct.
November 24, 2022 at 10:22 am #41494
‘Why don’t I keep practicing the breathless absorption?’
yannūnāhaṁ appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti.
– Breathless absorption being mentioned here, is this the same as the 4th jhana?
-“appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ” is another name for the 4th jhana?
“So I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears”
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ.
– I see the word “assāsapassāse” here, we know assāsapassāse can have 2 different meanings. The conventional meaning of breathing in and out, and the deeper meaning of taking in the noble 8 fold path and discarding what’s not the noble 8 fold path. From what I can understand of the Pali words in the sentence, I don’t believe assāsapassāse latter meaning fits here, but the conventional meaning of breathing in and out would make more sense to me. But I don’t see the word “assāsapassāse” in that sentence being translated as breathing in and out.
– So I’m wondering if “so I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears” is correct or a good enough translation for “”mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ”? If it is not, can you provide us with another translation?
November 24, 2022 at 11:15 am #41495
Any verse in a sutta needs to be analyzed in context. The above verses refer to when our Bodhisatta went through six years of “unfruitful efforts,” subjecting the body to hardships.
Again, it is a good idea to read a sutta with Plai and English side-by-side (keeping in mind that translations of some verses are incorrect). I am linking to emphasize the above point (“Before my awakening”):
“Mahāsaccaka Sutta (MN 36)”
The translation is correct here:
“So I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ.”
– The Bodhisatta was trying a practice implemented by some ascetics to “remove defilements by subjecting the body to hardships.” “assāsapassāsa” in the above verse DOES refer to “breathing in and out.” He was forcefully stopping breathing in and out. This is why it is CRITICAL to note the context. Read the whole sutta, not just specific verses.
But the translation of the first verse you quoted is INCORRECT:
“‘Why don’t I keep practicing the breathless absorption?’
yannūnāhaṁ appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti.”
– Here, “jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti” is INCORRECTLY translated as “breathless absorption.”
– As we have discussed, “jhāyi” means to “burn,” specifically to “burn defilements.” The Bodhisatta thought, “Why don’t I try burning defilements (by stop breathing)”?
– See “Jhāna, Jhāya, and Jhāyi – Different Meanings”
This is why it is dangerous to translate (or read) Pali suttas word-by-word without understanding the context!
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