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Ahhhh . . . It’s been awhile since that discussion . . . Where I’m at today is that I’m in the process of finding/feeling/seeing that even being in the heavenly realms is still suffering and meaningless/pointless.
If the Buddha or someone made me an offer that
a) If I give up on attaining Nibbana in return I would get to stay in the heavenly realms for 364 days and only go to the apaya’s for 1 day. Or I can stay in the heavenly realms permanently.
b) I’m guaranteed to attain Nibbana if I have to spend 364 days in the apaya’s or a X amount of time in the apaya’s, but I’m guaranteed to attain Nibbana.
I would always choose option B
It’s taught by the noble one’s and Lal has mentioned that one should see suffering based on wisdom and not based on vedana.
Even if we spend 99% of our time in the heavenly realms and if one believes that there’s less “net” suffering because of that. I believe that person is still seeing suffering based on feelings (vedana).
I have contemplated on some of the sufferings that may occur in the heavenly realms. I thought I would share some of these. Some of the things I’m about to share is based on speculations, although not without good reasons, as well more details could be given.
1). There’s a law in economics called “the law of diminishing returns”. I don’t know how applicable that is to our true reality, but that idea / concept resonates with me. Through my own personal experience and observation, to me it seems like the more we keep doing/experiencing the same thing over and over again, no matter how much we like it or enjoy it, the less pleasurable/enjoyable it becomes over time. I believe that’s one of the reasons why we always look for new experiences and such. As well, even if we enjoy/like a particular experience so much that even by experiencing the same thing over and over again and never get bored/sick of it. Eventually we will get old and the five senses starts to decay, we won’t be able to use the five senses like we did when we were younger to get the same enjoyment out of that experience that we like/enjoy so much. So even if our minds like it so much, but eventually our body will not allow us to get the same enjoyment.
This is just speculation, but I believe possibly Deva’s and Brahmins would experience something similar (with their minds). One example of this are stories about the fall of Cakkavatti’s. As well Waharaka Thero mentions about how the brahmas descend to the world to become humans, after the formation of the world. “They recall past memories of how great it would be to be human. They fondly remember human nature and wish to be in that state. This is speculation on my part, but I believe it’s possible that Brahmas in the heavenly realms might even have such thoughts especially when they are near the end of their bhava/jati. What this tells me that even Brahma’s might eventually get bored / unfilled with their jhana’s or whatever it’s that experiencing in the rupa, arupa loka’s and would like to experience kama raga. (Speculation)
When I think / contemplate about sensual pleasures in the heavenly realms, for example as a Deva. Although it might be very enjoyable at the beginning, partying, having sex, seeing beautiful sights, living in a palace etc . . . But if I keep doing these things over and over again, I feel it would become less and less enjoyable as time goes on. Because this is what I can observe when I contemplate and reflect back on my life.
2) Burning from the 11 flames. One would still burn from the 11 flames in the heavenly realms. One could argue that one doesn’t burn from the first 3 flames of raga, dosa, moha in the heavenly realms. But one would still burn from the flame of jati, jara, marana, soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upayasa.
3) Sankata
From my own understanding, I believe it would be very difficult, if not impossible to find other teachers that’s on par / level with Lord Buddha’s. The consistency, details, and clarity of the Dhamma taught by Lord Buddha’s, I simply have no words or believe any words can do justice to describe how intelligent / amazing Lord Buddha’s are.
Just take Sankata and the naming of each of the 5 stages that Lord Buddha uses. I can use this to describe / explain to myself the connection between sankata’s and how it leads to anicca, dukkha, anatta. I hope Lal will eventually fix / write with more details on sankata’s since the post / link “Root cause of Anicca – Five stages of Sankata’s” no longer works and I believe it’s such an important teaching to understand. Anyways to make a long story short, one of the stages of a Sankata is adinava. What I have learned is that one of the ways to understand/see what adinava is, is that Adinava = Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. From my own understanding, I believe what all living beings experiencing are Sankata’s. So even if one is in the heavenly realms, one would still be experiencing Sankata’s and what is one of the 5 stages of a Sankata? Adinava = anicca, dukkha, anatta.
I consider sankata’s to be a bottle of poison. Being attached to sankata’s is like drinking from a bottle of poison. If one is attached to sankata’s, that’s like drinking from the bottle of poison and one would have to experience the effects of poison or from the sankata perspective, one would have to suffer the bad consequences (adinava) of anicca, dukkha, anatta.
To end this post off, from one of Waharaka’s Thero desana’s, subtitled:
“Atteeyathi was explained as the vexatious nature, then the Lord Buddha showed us what is meant by “Anicca” that is vexation. This unfavorable vexatious nature should be held in contempt and should be ashamed to associate with. This vexatious world should be rejected. If one understands this particular fact, if one understands the nature of vexation, worries and frustration, it becomes clear that one is chasing immense vexation with the wrong impression that one is enjoying gratification.”
I believe some confusion might have arisen due to what was discussed below, although I’m not 100% sure.
“There are also cases of people, who have parts of their body removed, but still feel body sensations in that area (“phantom hand”). Are these sensations generated from the utuja kaya, which is still there?”
– Yes.
“Isn’t it possible for vipaka to affect utuja kaya, which in turn can lead to sukha/dukha vedana arising?”
– No. That is why hell-beings have “solid bodies” that can feel the bodily dukkha vedana.
While we’re on this topic, I have 2 questions of my own right now.
#1. Does preta’s have a āhāraja kāya or karaja kāya? I believe so, but not 100% sure.
#2. To me, it seems like there’s a connection between pasada rupa’s and utuja kaya. It seems like if there’s no utuja kaya, there would be no pasada rupa’s, they go hand in hand. Would this be fair to say?
with Metta,
In regards to the Buddha that only arise in Jambudipa. Over a year ago, I read a book called The Buddhist Cosmos
I remembered reading that only Buddha’s are born in Jambudipa from the book, so I went back to it and quickly scanned over it and here’s what I found.
It mentions in the book:
“On the other hand, the humans of Jambudipa surpass those of Uttarakuru and the Tavatimsa devas in the three qualities of;
Sura – Heroism
Satimant – Mindfulness. In the deva worlds there is only happiness and in niraya only misery and neither of those conditions is conducive to mindfulness; only among the humans of Jambudipa is there a suitable mix of the two
Idhabrahmacariyavasa – Here it is possible to live the holy life. As the commentary says, only in Jambudipa do Buddhas and paccekabuddhas arise, and only here it is possible to follow the eightfold path in fullness (AN-a 9:21).
I’m not sure what source is (AN-a 9:21).
Some other clue’s from the book.
“The Anguttara Commentary adds a note to the effect that there are never two Buddhas existing anywhere in the universe at the same time and argues from the absence in the canon of a single mention of Buddhas in another world-system”. This is an odd and extreme position to take, and seems to obviate the need for a special “field of birth” altogether.”
“The Tisahassimahasahassilokadhatu is cited as the extent over which the Buddha can, if he wishes extend his radiance and the sound of his voice.”
“The majjhimadesa is the place where Buddhas, paccekabuddhas, cakkavatis and other great and noble beings are born (An-a 1:170)”
“It is considered relatively rare to be born in the middle country, more common but less forunate to be born in the boarder countries where bhikkhus and bhikkhunis seldom travel and the dhamma is not heard (AN 8:29)”
“Although it is the rule that only cakkavatti can arise in a world-system at any given time (AN 1: 278)”
Hope this helps.
I’m very hesitant to mention about this, but since I’m already mentioning about the book and seeing Lal mention about something, I thought I would say a little of something . . .
Lal mentioned: “But there is the issue of time too! – Time is better spent on learning Dhamma concepts”
Over a year ago when I was reading the book that’s mentioned at the beginning of this post. Something really really resonated with me.
– “There will come a time when the lifespan of humans is just ten years. Amongst these people, girls will reach the age of marriage at five years old. Among the people with a lifespan of ten years the flavours of butter, ghee, oil, honey, treacle, and salt will have disappeared. Among them, the kudrusaka grain will be the chief foods, just as rice and meat are today.
Among the people with ten year lifespans, the ten ways of right conduct will have completely disappeared and the ten ways of wrong conduct will prevail. Among them, the word kusala (“moral”, lit. “skillful”) will not exist, so how could moral actions exist? Among the people with ten year lifespans, there will be no (respect for) mother or father or samanas or brahmins, nor for the elders of the clan. Now those who do show such respect are considered praiseworth, in that time it will be considered praiseworthy to lack respect for mother and father.
Among the people with ten year lifespans no account will be taken of mother, aunt, mother-in-law, teachers wife or other such revered women. The entire world will go together in confusion, like goats or pigs or cocks or dogs or jackals. (The sub-commentary makes the meaning clear; they will take their own mothers and so forth “as if they were their wives”). Among the people with ten year lifespans, fierece animosity, anger and hatred will arise. They will have the minds of killers. Between mother and son, between father and son, between brother and sister, fierce animosity, anger and hatred will arise. Just as when a hunter sees his prey, they will have the minds of killers.
And among those people there will come to be a seven day “sword time” (sattha-antarakappa). They will perceive one another as if they were wild beast. Sharp swords will appear in their hands (the commentary explains that anything they hold in their hands, even a blade of grass, will turn into a weapon). Taking the swords, and crying out, “There is a beast! There is a beast!” they will slay one another.” (DN26)
I have always thought that one of my strengths is observation. We also come from different backgrounds and paths that leads us to the dhamma. Based on my own observation and what I have learned before and after coming across the dhamma. I’m seeing many current worldly events / situations playing out and have observed the current humanity decline in moral value’s and intellect that I believe would eventually lead humanity to such an outcome mentioned above.
I actually wrote a little bit more details what I mentioned above and about this “time issue” but decided to delete it. If there is a “time issue”, it’s even more significant now then ever before. Many of us really don’t have much time left in our current lives and even if we do have “some” time, decay and illness and worldly difficult circumstances are coming faster to us (humanity on this planet) then ever before.
May we all use our remaining time wisely and may we all the living beings attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana as soon as possible.
I’m not sure if this post is relevant to what was just discussed. But I believe this is a pretty good post and might be useful in some way to what was just discussed about “atta”.
Two other sources for listening to the dhamma besides what’s already mentioned are:
Lal recommended this Thero’s desena’s on this website if one hasn’t already seen / come across. It’s unfortunate that there’s not many desena’s by this Thero in English
This other source, one really has to use their discernment. One might be able to find some teachings that might be helpful to them on the path.
Understanding Buddha’s Teachings
Since Dharmayai Obai is mentioned, in case anyone is interested, Dharmayai Obai might be looking for transcribers for the sermons. They have a project going on where the transcribed sermons are shared with people who are deaf (not able to listen to the dhamma). I’m actually currently in the process of transcribing “Drop the telescope get the microscope” sermon. If anyone is interested in possibly helping Amandassana Thero transcribing his sermons, you can e-mail me at [email protected]
May we all living beings attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
Thank you Lal for doing your best to explain such a complex subject.
What I have realized to be the most important thing when learning the Buddha Dhamma is to understand / get the general idea of of what’s being taught and making sure it’s consistent with the other teachings in the Buddha Dhamma. So far what I have learned from this website, I find pretty much everything is consistent relating to the other teachings in the Buddha dhamma. Because of seeing this consistency and what’s being taught in the Buddha Dhamma, it really changed the way that I saw and understood about the triple gem.
Currently, it seems like some of the finer details about the Buddha Dhamma, we might not be able to work out due to our own level of understanding and some teachings in the Tipitaka might require the commentaries or Arahants to explain it clearly and fully.
Fortunately, it seems like some of these more fine details are not necessary needed for one to attain magga phala. Although it might be useful/beneficial to people with higher magga phala attainments, but what’s most important is attaining magga phala. There’s many stories about people attaining magga phala from just hearing a few words or verses of the Buddha Dhamma. So this show’s me that finer details aren’t always necessary to attain magga phala.
What we have discussed in this thread, it’s something that I might revisit it in the future. But for now, I’ll leave it as it is and will continue to focus on learning and practicing the basics of the Buddha Dhamma so that I can continue to build an unbreakable foundation in regards to what I have understood about the Buddha Dhamma. Thanks again Lal,
May all attain the supreme bliss of nibbana.
#1. Would you know if the Pali word that’s being translated as “meditation” in that verse is bhavana or some other word that’s used for meditation?
If it’s “bhavana” or something similar, would this be an example of mundane usage of certain words or the context of the words that require further clarification? Or the Pali word that’s being translated as meditation in that verse is a different word?
#2. I know jhana’s are not required for magga phala or to attain nibbana. But would it be correct for me to say that jhana’s are required for abhinna powers? If that is so would “meditation” and jhana’s here have some form of connection?
#3. I’m not sure if Santati personally killed anyone during the battle, but this might be the second instance where I noticed a human killing other human’s and still able to attain Arahanthood within the same Jati, with Anguliamala being the first. It seems like having fulfilled the paramites that enable’s one to attain nibbana can even override any akusala’s kamma’s done as long as they aren’t the bad anantarika kamma’s and are fortunate enough to receive teachings on the Dhamma directly from Lord Buddha. I’m sure such instances are rare, but I have not heard of any stories where Arahants have helped a human being that has killed other human beings and attained Nibbana within the same jati like the Buddha did. Would this be an example of one of the Buddha’s special abilities The miracle of instructions (anusasani patihariya)?
#4. Would Santati and Ven. Cūḷapanthaka be an examples of an ubhatovimutti Arahant? Someone who attains cetovimutti and pannavimutti at the same time?
#5. It seems like in order for someone to attain abhinna powers, one would need to have attain cetovimutti which is to do with jhana’s, Is this correct?
Greetings and welcome ZenLife,
I wish you the best on your journey!
Not really advice, but I can say PureDhamma is one of the best resources in English to learn the Buddha Dhamma or anything related to the “truth” about this world, which I have looked for 15 + years. Your really fortunate to have ended up here, just like I was and probably others. Of course, this can only be decided for yourself.
I was able to make significant progress on my journey thanks to the teachings on this website. As well Lal and others on this forum doing their best to answer our questions and sharing resources that is of benefit for our journey.
I hope PureDhamma will be of benefit to your journey and may it help you and all the living beings attain the supreme bliss of Nibbana.
with Metta,
Thank you SengKiat and Lal,
Just wondering what book is SengKiat quoting from?
The reason for asking what I did is because I’m coming across “Youtubers” claiming that they have attained Arahanthood when according to the Buddha Dhamma that I have come to understand/know, they clearly have not.
I was thinking that it would be a compassionate thing for me to at least attempt one time to try to get them to really question themselves if they really have attained Arahanthood. To me, it’s never too late for one to admit their mistakes and possibly walk on the noble 8 fold path in the future.
But after observing the P.S. of these people, I feel they might have gone too deep into their delusions or the anatta nature. Even though I haven’t attempted to reach out to these people yet, but for some reason I feel that no matter what I say or try to tell them, it won’t reach them. If I’m not careful, they might even end up hating me. Instead of trying to do good, I end up doing harm . . . One of these teachers says/teaches Nibbana is Sansara . . .
The worse part is these people also have followers. I was planning on warning them, but after seeing their comments praising these claimed Arahants. If I did such a thing, they might end up hating me as well.
In mundane terms, it’s sad to see such things happening while feeling anatta (helpless) to do anything for these people, besides metta bhavana.
In supramundane terms, to me this seems like an example of the meaning of Dhamma. What one must bear. Seems like the way it is. . .
From what I have understood so far, the most practical thing that I can do for others is to contemplate on the Dhamma and do metta bhavana.
with Metta, Theruwan Saranai.
Would ego be in the vinnana? While avija is the fuel or cause of ego.
One of the reasons why I say this is because Vinnana is taught as “our future expectations and hopes we have for this world”. We have these expectations and hopes because of avija. Having expectations, hopes, etc . . . as long as one thinks this way, to me it seems like one will always have the view of a “self” or ego in this thinking process.
As well, at Arahant stage, one gain’s Samma Nana, to me Samma nana is the key to remove avija and mana. An Arahant would still have vinnana until death of the body, but they would no longer be fooled by the vinnana and avija. They would truly see this world as it is.
Thanks for trying to explain this to me y not. I watched the youtube video’s on Lal’s post. Not an easy concept for me to understand with math and numbers especially when I’m a poor student in math. :) I’ll just keep things simple in regards to what y not and Lal said.
“There are infinite living-beings in this world.
– Even if an infinite number attain Nibbana, there ALWAYS will be an infinite number left.”That’s all I need to know for this topic :)
Thank you for your time y not and Lal.
I just wanted to say thank you Lal for having answered my inquiry.
“Dealing with average humans causes distress in the mind, even for a Buddha. ”
– I’m starting to find having long drawn out mundane conversations causes distress to my mind.
Thank you me1 for the Thanissaro Bhikkhu English translation. The part I’m wondering if the English translation can be improved upon is:
“ālayarāmā kho panāyaṁ pajā ālayaratā ālayasammuditā”
(Bhikkhu Brahmali)
“But this is a creation delighting in sensual pleasure, delighted by sensual pleasure, rejoicing in sensual pleasure.”(Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
“But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment.”
