May 12, 2022 at 2:46 pm #37465
Checking to see if my understanding is correct.
I’m not sure if an Arahant would still engage in Kamma Vinnana, but I believe they would. If I was to connect an Arahant’s Kamma vinnana to P.S. Is that Arahants would only carry out sankhara’s (or Kamma vinnana) based on the avyakata or kusala-mula (transcendental) P.S. Is this correct?
May 12, 2022 at 4:13 pm #37466cubibobiParticipant
My understanding is that there is no kamma vinnana in an arahant. kamma vinnana is defiled consciousness; an arahant has only vipaka vinnana.
Like you said, an arahant still engages in kusala sankhara, which does not bring kamma vinnana.
Sankhara that bring kamma vinnana are apunnabhi sankhara, punnabhi sankhara, anenjabhi sankhara, ie all abhisankhara. An arahant engages in none of those.
In the following post, Lal explained why an arahant does not generate any kamma vinnana.
May 12, 2022 at 5:21 pm #37467LalKeymaster
1. Lang (cubobi)’s explanation is right, except for the following: “Like you said, an arahant still engages in kusala sankhara, which does not bring kamma vinnana.”
An Arahant would not generate either akusala sankhara or kusala sankhara.
– The first is obvious. The second is because an Arahant does not have any defilements to remove. “Kusala” means to “get rid of defilements.” See #11 of “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”
2. To further clarify, we can take the following question from the TripleGemStudent: “If I was to connect an Arahant’s Kamma vinnana to P.S. Is that Arahants would only carry out sankhara’s (or Kamma vinnana) based on the avyakata or kusala-mula (transcendental) P.S. Is this correct?”
– An Arahant generates sankhara but NOT abhisankhara.
– Such sankhara are generated ONLY via avyakata P.S. As mentioned above, kusala-mula and akusala-mula PS do not apply to an Arahant.
3. An avyakata P.S. does not have the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step.
– Sankhara (not abhisankhara) is generated when an arammana comes to the mind via one of the six senses. That happens, for example, via “cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ”
– That cakkhu vinnana is a vipaka vinnana and not a kamma vinnana.
– The relevant sankhara are those arising together with that vipaka vinnana.
– See, “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna”
P.S. Another set of sankhara may arise if the Arahant speaks or take actions according to the arammana.
– For example, suppose the Arahant is asked to explain a Dhamma concept. That request comes to the mind as a vipaka vinnana through the ears (sota vinnana), which would have associated vedana and sanna; those are the automatic “mano sankhara” associated with that sota vinnana.
– Now, the Arahant will start speaking. That happens with javana citta. But those vaci sankhara are completely devoid of lobha, dosa, moha, and thus are NOT abhisankhara.
– See, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa.”
– I wrote that post sometime back. So, let me know if it is not clear.
May 12, 2022 at 7:24 pm #37469
Thank you Lang and Lal for the reply / replies.
“An Arahant would not generate either akusala sankhara or kusala sankhara.
#1. This sentence can potentially answer some questions I have, as well what is written in the P.S. Based on the above sentence, is it correct for me to think that for an Arahant / Buddha, only the avyakata p.s. is initiated?
#2. For further clarification, if one initiates the “transcendental” kusala-mula p.s. Is that just sankhara or would that be considered as abhisankhara?
May 12, 2022 at 8:05 pm #37470LalKeymaster
#1. Yes. That is correct.
#2. I am not sure what you mean by “transcendental” kusala-mula p.s.
– There is one kusala-mula P.S.
– A Kusala-mula P.S. will be in effect ONLY when one does kusala kamma. That means no one below that Sotapanna Anugami stage can be engaged in Kusala-mula P.S.
– All others engage only in punna kamma. Those are “good, moral deeds” done by anyone without comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– The same deeds would become kusala kamma if they are done with the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada. Note that even Noble Persons (Sotapanna Anugami through Arahant anugami) will not be engaged in kusala kamma all the time.
– An Arahant will not be engaged in either kusala-mula or akusala-mula P.S.
– Please read the posts referred to in my previous post too.
May 13, 2022 at 12:38 am #37471cubibobiParticipant
by “transcendental” kusala-mula p.s., you may have meant puñña kriyā. Lal explained puñña kriyā in the post I referenced.
An arahant still does puñña kriyā, but not kusala kamma, since as Lal explained, there are no more defilements to be removed. puñña kriyā is possibly what you were trying to convey.
May 13, 2022 at 9:29 pm #37478
I apologize for my second question as it wasn’t clear and end up causing some confusion. It seems like to me I must’ve erred in what I was thinking. But thanks to this discussion, I was able to gain some new valuable insights and helped to remind me / review / contemplate with new possibilities and understandings.
Thank you both Lang and Lal for your time and help. May we and others talk again in the near future.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.