June 7, 2022 at 12:55 pm #37914
I found in one of the older forum discussion post, it was mentioned:
““uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata; vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata; titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”
What is the meaning of “titthassa”?
June 7, 2022 at 7:13 pm #37929
1. There are three stages/lakkhana of a sankhata: Uppāda (arising), ṭhiti (existence), vaya (destruction).
– During existence a sankhata is subjected to “unexpected change” or “aññathā“.
– This is in the “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
2. There are three types of dukkha (dukkhatā): Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā.
– See, “Dukkhatā Sutta (SN 45.165)”
3. The three types of dukkhatā correspond to the three lakkhana of a sankhata.
– A sankhata arises due to Paticca Samuppāda starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.” Thus the “uppāda lakkhana” of a sankhata is associated with saṅkhāradukkhatā.
– Any sankhata will eventually be destroyed and has the “vaya lakkhana.” That is the vipariṇāmadukkhatā.
– In between the birth and death, a sankhata exists (tithi). However, it undergoes unexpected change (aññathā), and that gives rise to Dukkhadukkhatā. That is expressed by, “titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”.
June 7, 2022 at 7:27 pm #37930
Saddhu saddhu saddhu
June 8, 2022 at 2:01 am #37933
“uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata;
vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata;
titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”
Where is that stated in a sutta?
June 8, 2022 at 5:00 am #37934
Lal said above: “.. In between the birth and death, a sankhata exists (tithi). However, it undergoes unexpected change (aññathā), and that gives rise to Dukkhadukkhatā. That is expressed by, “titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata“.”
That is against the statement in e.g. Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering, #1:
“Vipariṇāma-dukkha arises when rupa (both internal and external) change against our liking….”
Thus, change against our liking or unexpected change is aññathā, which causes dukkhadukkhata. This was also explained by Waharaka Thero in a YT video, the change to another (unwanted) state causes dukkhadukkha.
This is also valid in case one gets sick or injured, both are unwanted changes and cause dukkhadukkha.
June 8, 2022 at 5:55 am #37936
Yes. I was trying to revise that post yesterday, but still trying to find the source of the quote.
– It is important to settle this, so I will take a bit more time, especially to find the source of that quote.
– Waharaka Thero discussed it in a discourse. It would have been easy to find it if he was alive.
June 8, 2022 at 9:23 am #37946
I’m not sure if this helps, but in a Venerable Waharaka Thero youtube discourse where I seen the similar analyses and it’s probably the same video Tobias mentioned. It’s mentioned in English subtitles.
“Petakopadesaya – an important atuwa book also contains this analysis. Also Patisambhidamaggaprakara volumes analyze these concepts similarly”
In addition to what Tobais mentioned about viparinama dukkha and annatha, my thinking is that viparinama dukkha is “expected changes” to one what dislikes / not wish or desire for. Such as old age, sickness, death, being separated from what one likes and having to associate with one dislikes. Since we know that any sankata will eventually evolve towards decay and destruction (vayo sankata lakkhanan), that’s why I believe viparinama dukkha is “expected changes”.
While a sankata is in existence, it’s subjected to “unexpected changes” and if these unexpected changes are not to our liking or not what we wish or desire for, then that cause us dukkha dukkha. (titthassa sankata lakkhanan).
Yesterday when I was contemplating on this subject, I was able to see another / additional way of describing what dukkha dukkha is and how anicca is connected to dukkha dukkha. As well using the tilakkhanan and the first noble truth to connect with the 3 sankata lakkhanan (although I could be mistaken).
June 8, 2022 at 11:48 am #37950
Yes. It is in the Petakopadesa, a Commentary in the Tipitaka.
“5. Hāravibhaṅgapañcamabhūmi” in the first paragraph. It is sort of hidden!
“Tattha tīṇi saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni tisso dukkhatā uppādo saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, saṅkhāradukkhatāya dukkhatā ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, vipariṇāmadukkhatāya dukkhatāti aññathattaṁ ca saṅkhatalakkhaṇaṁ, dukkhadukkhatāya ca dukkhatā,.”
I will revise the post, “Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering” but it may take a couple of days.
June 9, 2022 at 12:47 am #37954
This Pali dictionary says:
vipariṇāma : [m.] change.
aññathā : [adv.] otherwise; in a different way.
Sutta Central says:
vipariṇāma : change (for the worse), reverse, vicissitude
aññathā : in a different manner; otherwise (than, ablative); in the wrong way, falsely
Both words mean change or change for the worse?
Can it be that during existence aññathā is just change (which is annoying)? E.g. I watch out of the window and see cars and people passing by. Although I can watch it for a while it will become annoying after some time. This change causes dukkha and can be subtle. That is how Waharaka Thero explained it. This “otherness” or change is burdensome (pilana). Therefore the pancakkandha are burdensome or to experience the world is dukkha.
Then the question is, what category is physical pain? Such pain is a change for the worse, it can lead to “destruction” or vaya of the person. Thus it can be viparinama dukkha. If not destructive it is aññathā or dukkhadukkha.
June 9, 2022 at 2:14 am #37960
The Pali dictionary above says:
pīḷana : [nt.] oppression; injury; damage
So pilana includes (mental) distress but also injury, damage. That is the burdensome nature we experience via pancakkandha during life. This experience is mostly not as wanted (anicca) which leads to dukkha(dukkha).
June 9, 2022 at 6:23 am #37963
1. “Can it be that during existence aññathā is just change (which is annoying)?”
– It is more than annoying. It is more like unexpected changes which keep coming.
– Examples; getting injured, sick, etc. But it is not restricted to one’s health. One’s belongings are subjected to it too, (all sankhata) leading to mental distress in addition to any physical pain.
2. “Then the question is, what category is physical pain?”
– Physical pain comes mostly as kamma vipaka.
– Of course, it is part of the “pīḷana” nature.
3. “This experience is mostly not as wanted (anicca) which leads to dukkha(dukkha).”
– Yes. See, “Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)“
June 10, 2022 at 10:30 am #37977
Revised post “Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering” posted.
– Thanks for the input from TripleGemStudent and Tobias. Don’t hesitate to question/comment.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.