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Theruwan saranai all,
Thank you Saket for mentioning of the video! I didn’t know about the video.
While we’re on the topic of Venerable Waharaka Thero’s desana’s. I recently came across two newer English subtitled video’s related to Venerable Waharaka Thero. I’m believe some of you already might have come across them. I’m not sure if they have been brought up here, but I thought I would mention them here as well.
Ingraining the powers of the nine noblities
metta, muditha, karuna, upekkha
So glad to see points #1 – 6 in the post! It’s additional details and information for me. Some of the materials in those points reminds me of a desana given by Venerable Waharaka Thero given on anicca khayatthena.
In regards to what I have mentioned in this thread and the two questions that I have brought up. I believe now I have mostly figured things out and able to answer my own two questions. It’s possible though that what I’m about to mention might have some gaps of misunderstandings or inconsistencies. If one notice any, you can really help me and us out by bringing them up or correct any possible mistakes that I might have made. Much thanks!
After some contemplation and as of this moment. I now believe that there are no 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhana samapatti, only 4th jhana samapatti.
I asked:
#1. Is there any differences between the samapatti in each of the four jhana’s?
#2. Does one need to attain samapatti in each of the jhana’s before being able to progress to the next jhana or they can still progress to the higher jhana’s without needing to attain samapatti in those jhana’s?
My answer to my question #1. is that there are no 1st, 2nd, 3rd jhana samapatti. If there are no jhana samapatti from 1st to 3rd jhana, than my question #2. is invalid. How did I arrive to such conclusions?
This is something I’m not totally sure about, but thought to bring it up for scrutiny and advice. The definition given for samapatti on SC is “attainment”, while here on PD glossary is “meditative attainment”. If we take the word “attainment” (samapatti) literally, it would sound like 1st jhana “attainment”, 2nd jhana “attainment” and so on. Besides one of the meanings for samapatti is that there are no pancadvara citta vithi that runs through the mind, what if “meditative attainment” (samapatti) also means attaining all the 4 jhana’s or when one is able to enter the 4th jhana at will?
From teaching materials here on Puredhamma:
(“Therefore, the main difference between any samāpatti and jhānā is that jhānā citta do not run continuously. When one is in a jhānā, jhānā citta vithi are interrupted by pañcadvāra citta vithi running in between. Pañcadvāra citta vithi are those coming through the five physical senses. Therefore, when one is in jhānā, one can see, hear, etc.”)
(“But when one is in any samāpatti, corresponding manōdvāra citta vithi runs continuously.”)
At my current understanding, it makes most sense to me that when one is in samapatti, only manodvara citta vithi runs through the mind. Based on this understanding, it doesn’t seem correct to me calling or saying one is in jhana samapatti when there are pancadvara citta vithi’s still running through the mind in any levels of jhana’s.
Why I believe there’s no 1st to 3rd jhana samapatti is due to my belief that in the 3rd jhana, pañcadvāra citta vithi are still running through the mind. What makes me believe that pancadvara citta vithi still flows through the mind in the 3rd jhana is from the jhanic experience in detail post
(“Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness”)
(“Similarly, the great king, the bhikkhu, drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with happiness free from rapture so that this happiness suffuses his entire body. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of a life abstaining from kāma and akusala”)
Although I could be wrong, but seeing the word “happiness”, to me it seems like there’s still body feelings and possibly pancadvara citta vithi still coming in the 3rd jhana.
Now I compare with the 4th jhana description.
(“He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind (one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized”).
(“the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind”)
(“One’s physical body is no longer felt”)
To me, this sounds like no more pancadvara citta vithi runs through the mind and only manodvara citta vithi’s.
(“Initially, only 2-3 jhānā citta vithi flow before a pañcadvāra citta vithi comes in. As one cultivates the jhānā, there will be less and less pañcadvāra citta vithi coming in between successive jhānā citta vithi.”)
(“This point explains why it is so peaceful not to have any citta running through the mind. That is the closest explanation that can be given to an average human as to how having no citta can be so peaceful. But this is hard even to imagine for an average human, as I mentioned at the beginning. Those who cultivate jhānā, and get to higher rupāvacara jhānic and arupāvacara samāpatti states, can start seeing that this is true. That is why they cultivate arupāvacara samāpatti up to the nēva saññā nā saññā state.”)
Based on what I just quoted, I believe and it makes a lot of sense that as one moves up into higher jhana’s. Less and less pancadvara citta vithi’s comes in and finally in the 4th jhana ,all pancadvara citta vithi’s stops and only manodvara citta vithi’s remain and one enters jhana samapatti (4th jhana).
(“Today, many English texts incorrectly label the “higher rupāvacara samāpatti” as the fifth through the eighth jhāna. In the Tipiṭaka, they are labeled as ākāsānañcāyatana, viññāṇañcāyatana, ākiñcaññāyatana, and nevasaññānāsaññāyatana samāpatti.”)
I believe what’s mentioned in the sutta below confirms that 1st to 3rd or 4th jhana? is just “jhana” while the arupa jhana’s are labeled as samapatti?
paṭhamassa jhānassa lābhīti vā dutiyassa jhānassa lābhīti vā tatiyassa jhānassa lābhīti vā catutthassa jhānassa lābhīti vā ākāsānañcāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā viññāṇañcāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā ākiñcaññāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasamāpattiyā lābhīti vā, ayaṁ kittīti – yaso kitti ca yā pubbe.
I also found some possible additional information on samapatti in the following sutta below that I believe might be relevant, but I don’t fully understand it.
Samāpattī”ti ekattatā. Tattha katamā samāpatti? Saññāsamāpatti asaññāsamāpatti, nevasaññānāsaññāsamāpatti. Vibhūtasaññāsamāpatti nirodhasamāpattīti. Ayaṁ vemattatā.
To conclude, I believe the labels given here on Puredhamma for Nirodha samapatti, phala samapatti, jhana, jhana samapatti are accurate / correct and I’m glad to see how it’s differentiate here on Puredhamma. It really helps to clear things up. The issue was that I was mistaken by thinking that there are samapatti in 1st to 3rd jhana.
This is what I’m able to think off for now, please feel free to comment.
!!!
So glad that I mentioned about this subject / sutta. I learned that I didn’t understand the sutta mentioned properly and could’ve continued to error without the explanation that was just given. The answer was blindsiding to me.
I’ll borrow material to add to this line: “Ven. Saripuatta was in Arahant phala samadhi! There only pure, undefiled citta (pabhassara citta) would arise.”
“Nibbānā is the thought object made contact with phassa cētasika, and vēdana and saññā are based on that (we have no idea about that)”
I was wondering what is this “Nibbana” thought object making contact with the phassa cetasika? I looked through an older forum thread “Difference between Arahant Phala Samapatti and Nirodha Samapatti. I saw the mention of asankata dhatu and nibbana dhatu (I was thinking nibbana dhatu) as being the possible thought object making contact with the phassa cetasika, but I’m not certain.
Regardless this was a beneficial learning experience for me.
I just realized and now believe that the four Supreme Efforts (Cattārō Sammāppadhāna) is literally anapanasati.
I believe the four supreme efforts can be used to as supporting evidence that anapanasati is not breathing meditation. If we take the four supreme efforts literally as anapanasati, how could someone that’s focusing on breathing in out be practicing the four supreme efforts? Such as taking in kusala and discarding akusala?
Thank you Venerable Sir for the beneficial teachings. I was thinking this for a while, but if time permits and makes sense to do so, can you also please write a post or two on the Buddhist practices / customs that’s done / perform for someone that passes away? Or is there good resources out there on this subject? Thanks
‘Why don’t I keep practicing the breathless absorption?’
yannūnāhaṁ appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ jhāyeyyan’ti.– Breathless absorption being mentioned here, is this the same as the 4th jhana?
-“appāṇakaṁyeva jhānaṁ” is another name for the 4th jhana?“So I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears”
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ.– I see the word “assāsapassāse” here, we know assāsapassāse can have 2 different meanings. The conventional meaning of breathing in and out, and the deeper meaning of taking in the noble 8 fold path and discarding what’s not the noble 8 fold path. From what I can understand of the Pali words in the sentence, I don’t believe assāsapassāse latter meaning fits here, but the conventional meaning of breathing in and out would make more sense to me. But I don’t see the word “assāsapassāse” in that sentence being translated as breathing in and out.
– So I’m wondering if “so I cut off my breathing through my mouth and nose and ears” is correct or a good enough translation for “”mukhato ca nāsato ca kaṇṇato ca assāsapassāse uparundhiṁ”? If it is not, can you provide us with another translation?
Venerable Sir,
– “May be I should write a post on those connections? ”
Whatever you consider, my comment would be “your priorities and what you believe is more important for others to know / learn”.
There’s this beneficial post that you wrote. “Kamma and Sankhara, Cetena and Sancetena”
I asked the question to see if there’s any subtle differences between sankhara and cetena that I might not have thought of. As well for the abhidhamma paper that I would like to complete.
Thank you for the reply.
Are there other differences between sankhara and cetana besides one is described through the 5 aggregates and the other is through the universal cetasikas (abhidhamma)? From my understanding, both function’s are very similar. What I mean by function is they both add, incorporate, put things (I don’t know if “things” is the best word) together.
“Also, about guiding others (and in my case just one person), I notice something: this person appreciates the Pali words after understanding their meanings.”
– This person really does have potential!
“After establishing concepts of the big picture (the complex world of 31 realms with a rebirth process) and the mundane path (moral living, avoiding the 10 types of miccha ditthi), a person does appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words after they grasp the meanings behind them. They may also come up with analogies of their own when learning key concepts.”
– This has been my exact experience so far. After I started to appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words, it’s has helped me tremendously on the path.
Saddhu saddhu saddhu Lang and others for guiding / teaching others the Buddha dhamma. May you, the one’s you’re guiding and all of us living beings attain the Supreme peace and freedom of Nibbana.
Hi Lang,
I agree with your assessment that the chart in the “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma” post can definitely help to explain more easily the various stages of liberation or enlightenment and give an idea where one is on the path. Someone that’s competent in the Buddha dhamma or an ariya that explains the different parts of the chart, I believe it can help the listener / learner to understand the processes involved and differences between the mundane and transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. This chart can also give the learner a road map to follow and can be used as a comparison of one’s past and current experiences while one is walking either on the mundane or transcendental Noble 8 Fold Path. The chart (used as a road map or a reflection of one’s current and past experiences) can also possibly increase the readers / listeners / learners confidence and motivation by showing them that they are indeed walking / following on the right path in either achieving their mundane spiritual goals or to attaining Nibbana.
I’ll also add the chart can also be used to explain the difference between the “real” Buddhism and other religions. When someone that can give give a proper / good explanation of the chart like the written materials included in the post of this discussion. I believe it makes it very clear to see the differences between the “real” Buddhist and other religions practices. As well it would be difficult for listeners / learner to refute what’s being explained. But of course people can always think of foolish refutes.
My view / opinion is that the English words awakening, enlightenment, and nibbana are still a bit abstract for the majority of today’s spiritual practitioners and can possibly lead to some confusion, especially to people that are not familiar with the Buddha dhamma. For example, the majority of non-Buddhist today would automatic incline to think the word “awakening” applies to any spiritual person or yogis or anyone that can spew some esoteric or obscure teachings or have proclaimed some form of attainments such as jhana’s. This was my experience anyways while I was learning “new age” materials and sometimes still see it today. I believe it would be beneficial to try to clarify those words and come up with ways according to our understanding of the Buddha dhamma to try to sort out these words for the learner. Trying to explain what nibbana is or why one should put effort into attaining nibbana to a puthujjana, is not an easy task, but can be done partially with the right mundane wordings. As well nibbana is something that only an ariya would have some or full understanding depending on their ariya attainments. I don’t fault people for not understanding it properly or why one should strive to attain Nibbana. It’s like from a sutta, where a householder said to the Buddha. (My wording might not be the most accurate, but my general understanding was this) “For householders giving up sensual pleasure, is unappealing as jumping off a cliff”
– “This is also why Lal had a post about how a sotapanna is better off than a king or a billionaire.”
If I were to mention some details on how the majority of billionaires, people in power, famous people, etc get into their positions in our current times this becomes more apparent. What I have come to learn / seen / understood / know is that in our current times and going forward millions to billions of years from now on this planet. Anyone that lives a regular life, even though one might be poor, struggling to make ends meet or even being homeless, the majority of time one is still better off than being a king, billionaire, in power or being famous in this world. This can change (mundanely) though when the majority of humanity on this planet thoughts, speech, and actions inclines towards the wholesome side. But this doesn’t really matter since no matter what direction the world heads in, it’s still anicca, dukkha, anatta. The word “decadence” is actually a pretty good word to describe the current state of affairs of humans on this planet and about anicca nature.
I can’t remember exactly when and who wrote a post that I came across here in the forums, but someone mentioned / hinted (very subtly) of some very mundane dark things that’s taking place in this world that people have no idea about or can even imagine it’s happening, even for people with intelligence and wisdom. I’m not sure if others understood fully what was being said, it’s not essential to the path anyways. But I exactly knew what this person was saying. Now that I think about it, I should’ve at least replied to show that person he / she is not alone on here that has some idea what’s the current mundane state of affairs of this world. I don’t know how that person feels with what they know, but from my own experience, it’s one of the most saddest, frustrating experience that one has to goes through. Imagine not really being able to say anything to protect / help your love one’s, the people you care about or even people you come across in our everyday lives what’s really being done to them, their families and pretty much 90% plus of this world’s population. The thing is even if people knew, there’s really nothing one can do about it, besides practicing the Buddha dhamma. The Buddha dhamma is the only refuge, protection, shelter one has in / from this world.
I’m not sure if these inputs are what you and others are looking for but hopefully it can help in any way possible.
Thank you for the feedback and comments Venerable Sir,
I know this might be a little far fetch, but could the word “jhana” also have a meaning of “being in the state of taking in the Noble 8 fold path to burn defilements”?
Jha = to burn, ana (from anapanasati)? = taking in the Noble 8 fold path.
I’m wondering what’s others opinion and feedback on what I just mentioned?
This is one example of how broken Buddhism is today.
“They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Variant: ānāpānassati → ānāpānasati (bj, pts1ed)
Yeah . . .
May everyone be well,
In the Tapussa Sutta, the Buddha mentioned about seeing the benefits of infinite space (ākāsānañcāyatane), infinite consciousness (viññāṇañcāyatane), dimension of nothingness (ākiñcaññāyatane), and dimension of neither perception nor non-perception (nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ).
I’m wondering what are the benefits of those arupa jhana’s? Or does it mention anywhere in the sutta’s the benefits of each those 4 arupa jhana’s?
Thanks
