August 27, 2018 at 1:20 am #17975
In the post ‘Cetasika (Mental Factors)‘, under #1, the 7 universal cetasikas were mentioned.
In the post ‘Ultimate Realities – Table’, four kinds of ultimate realities were mentioned–rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana.
Since sankhara kandha are cetasikas, do they include all other cetasikas besides vinnana kandha, sanna kandha, and vedana kandha?
If that is so, they might presumably include the universal cetasikas such as phassa, cetana, ekaggata, jivitindriya and manasikara.
Yet phassa and sankhara are different links in paticca samuppada. Furthermore, the Buddha said “Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara dukkha”. Does this mean that even the pabhassara citta has anicca and dukkha nature?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers to my questions!
August 27, 2018 at 3:37 am #17977SengKiatKeymaster
Please download a copy of The 52 Cetasikas at a Glance to understand what are all the cetasikas.
Vedana & Sanna together with Sankhara formed the 52 Cetasikas and thus Sankhara has 50 Cetasikas.
Read the following posts to have a better understanding about Pabhassara citta:
If you have understood what sankhara (san + kara = action done with san where san is the good and bad things we aquired) is, you will know that the pabhassara citta is not related to anicca or dukkha.
Only Arahant has pabhassara citta which means each thought (a citta) will only have the 3 stages from citta, mano and manasam only and no further than that of contamination.
August 27, 2018 at 7:48 am #17979
To add to what SengKiat stated.
firewns said: “Since sankhara kandha are cetasikas..”
Sankhara are not the same as cetasika, but they are related. Different types of sankhara arise when different combinations of cetasika arise.
For example, if the lobha cetasika (and possibly more related cetasika) arise, then that is an apunna abhisankhara (apunnabhisankhara).
But in another case, dosa cetasika may arise giving rise to another type of apunnabhisankhara.
Regarding the rest of the question:
1. Vedana and sanna arise with each and every citta. So, yes, they are both in any sankhara.
- Vinnana is the overall sense experience that includes sankhara. Therefore, sankharakkhandha is part of vinnannakkandha.
– That means vedanakkhandha and sannakkhandha are parts of the bigger sankharakkhandha.
– Vedana and sanna are two critical and special types of cetasika. That is why they are listed separately from other 50 cetasika.
- But vinnana is more. While vedana, sanna, and sankhara are all nama, and rupa is all rupa, vinnana is the bridge between nama and rupa, leading to namarupa: “vinnana paccaya namarupa“.
- That is a subtle point, so don’t worry too much if anyone does not really understand that yet. For those who need more information: “Viññāna Aggregate“.
- An easy way to see that is on’es own house is a rupa. The name “my house” that comes to our mind comes with a picture that has both the shape and features of the house and one’s feelings, perceptions, desires about it too. So, what comes to the mind is a namarupa.
August 28, 2018 at 12:10 am #17991
Thank you, Lal and Seng Kiat for your explanations.
I have read ‘Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a Thought’, as recommended by Seng Kiat.
Under point #8, it is written: ‘…It starts with the citta stage, which is the purest stage for a given person (it has only the seven universal cētasika, or mental factors). However, that is still inherently contaminated because the universal cētasika of saññā is already contaminated due to one’s avijjā. …That first citta stage is “pure” or “pabhassara” only for an Arahant.
Thus I think I understand that the pabhassara citta of an Arahant is not of anicca or dukkha nature, since it is not an abhisankhara and will not bring about future suffering-filled rebirths. Please correct me if I am wrong in this view.
I also notice something curious. In the pavutti PS or uppati PS, avijja, sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa paccaya each other in forward or reverse order. Could it be even more complex than that?
For example, phassa could occur first, when we see our mother at the first citta stage. Then sanna may take place at the mano and manasam stages, as we identify the sight object as a woman who is our mother.
Afterwards, namarupa could occur at the hadayam and pandaram stages, as we get attached to the object we perceive as our mother, and bring in our hopes and expectations for the future with her.
Then salayatana could occur at the mano manayatanam and mana indriyam stages as the mano indriya becomes an ayatana to that person, becoming receptive to further feelings of attachment.
Finally vinnana of course happens at the vinnana and vinnanakkhandha stages. Thus the order would seem to be like this instead: phassa paccaya namarupa, namarupa paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya vinnana. Am I right to think that this is another possible version of PS?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers to my questions!
August 28, 2018 at 12:25 am #17992
Also, it seems to me that inherent in namarupa are vedana, sanna and tanha as well, i.e. in namarupa, we have our feelings, perceptions and desires tied up with it. Am I wrong to think so?
Actually I did not really want to go too indepth with this just for the sake of knowledge. However, if this is a part of citta bhavana, which could be useful to me in my path, I would like to contemplate upon this further.
August 28, 2018 at 6:50 am #18000
firewns said: “I also notice something curious. In the pavutti PS or uppati PS, avijja, sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa paccaya each other in forward or reverse order. Could it be even more complex than that?”
Yes. But it cannot randomly jump here and there. For example, it cannot be “vinnana paccaya salayatana”, skipping the “viannana paccaya namarupa” step in between.
– But the reverse order can happen: “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “namarupa paccaya vinnana” both happen: “Asevana and Annamanna Paccaya“.
– This is a complex subject. It may take time for all the details to sink in. Don’t worry too much about that. It took me years to get to get this stage, and I am still learning.
“Thus the order would seem to be like this instead: phassa paccaya namarupa, namarupa paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya vinnana. Am I right to think that this is another possible version of PS?”
Absolutely not. That is random.
“Also, it seems to me that inherent in namarupa are vedana, sanna and tanha as well, i.e. in namarupa, we have our feelings, perceptions and desires tied up with it.”
That is correct. The “nama” part has vedana, sanna, etc.
November 23, 2022 at 11:29 am #41475TripleGemStudentParticipant
Are there other differences between sankhara and cetana besides one is described through the 5 aggregates and the other is through the universal cetasikas (abhidhamma)? From my understanding, both function’s are very similar. What I mean by function is they both add, incorporate, put things (I don’t know if “things” is the best word) together.
November 23, 2022 at 1:23 pm #41481
A set of cetasika arise automatically according to gati/arammana. There are 52 cetasika, but 25 are good (sobhana) cetasika that arise with “good gati” and 14 bad (asobhana) cetasika associated with “bad gati.” Six cetasika may arise with good or bad gati, and seven “universal cetasika” arise with every citta.
– Two of the universal cetasika — vedana and sanna — also arise according to one’s gati; the other five are “managerial cetasika” doing various functions; cetana is one of those.
– Thus, cetana is a universal cetasika in EVERY citta. It is the cetasika responsible for putting together all relevant cetasika ACCORDING TO one’s gati and the particular arammana (sensory input.)
– Cetana does its work automatically, within the rise of the citta (< billionth of a second.) The initial set of cetasika arising in response to an arammana define mano sankhara. - If the mind attaches to that arammana, it may start adding more good or bad cetasika while doing vaci sankhara. - That process may be intensified with kaya sankhara. See "Cetasika (Mental Factors)” and “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means”
– May be I should write a post on those connections? The above two posts may not show the connection.
November 23, 2022 at 6:40 pm #41484TripleGemStudentParticipant
– “May be I should write a post on those connections? ”
Whatever you consider, my comment would be “your priorities and what you believe is more important for others to know / learn”.
There’s this beneficial post that you wrote. “Kamma and Sankhara, Cetena and Sancetena”
I asked the question to see if there’s any subtle differences between sankhara and cetena that I might not have thought of. As well for the abhidhamma paper that I would like to complete.
Thank you for the reply.
November 23, 2022 at 8:34 pm #41485
Yes. The post you mentioned above is related too. I can try to revise it tomorrow. Please feel to ask more questions so that I can incorporate them.
November 24, 2022 at 7:23 am #41490
I have made a few revisions to the post, “Kamma and Saṅkhāra, Cetanā and Sañcetanā.”
But I think it is time to write a series of posts on the following topic.
– Arising of citta (loosely translated as “thoughts”) is a purely mechanical process. It happens within a billionth of a second.
– Then how is it that we have “willpower” to change our destiny?
– That requires systematic analysis. There is sufficient background material on the website, and there are enough people who will be able to follow.
It is primarily humans who have willpower.
– For example, animals are essentially robots who instinctively respond to sensory inputs (arammana.) But that is not to say they don’t have feelings. They do, and they suffer tremendously. But they are helpless (that is the true meaning of “anatta“) because they cannot alter their destiny.
– Even most Devas and Brahmas are like that. They enjoy their mental states until the sustaining kammic energy runs out. Of course, Devas and Brahmas with magga phala do have willpower because their gati have been permanently altered (no going back to bad gati.)
– That is why the Buddha said that human bhava is precious and not to be wasted!
– Those interested in the new series may want to grasp the essential aspects of Abhidhamma in the Abhidhamma section.
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