[Lal]

I guess that is possible.

However, kama raga and patigha go together, just like dosa (dvesha) is the second manifestation of lobha (in simple terms, one gets angry because he/she is not getting what is desired).

So, it is more likely that kama raga and patigha are removed at the same time.

[Lal]

One could be doing things for the family/friends because of two possible reasons:
– Out of attachment.
– because one considers that is one’s responsibility.
It could also be a combination of the two.

I don’t think it serves any purpose to discuss this particular aspect.

[Lal]

Kalayanamitta1 said: “When somebody says Sankara and Sabba Sankara. Is there are a difference between the two. Is there any Sanakara that we can reference externally that is outside of 5 aggregates.”

Welcome to the forum, Kalayanamitta1!

Sankhara is very broad. One can get an idea of that by looking at “pada nirukti”: “san” + “kara”.
– As we know “san” is anything that is do with this world of 31 realms. When we eat, walk, talk, etc all those are sankhara.
– “Sabba sankhara” means ALL sankhara, the ones in this broad category.

Those that involve dasa akusala OR dasa kusala (i.e., involve moral/immoral values) have a special prefix of “abhi”; they are abhisankhara.
– One should first see the anicca nature (i.e., not suitable/ dangerous) of those worst abhisankhara that could lead to rebirth in the apayas; the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages).
– Then, one should see the anicca nature of those abhisankhara (done with craving for sense pleasures) that could lead to rebirth in the human realm (Sakadagami stage), and any realm in kama loka (at Anagami stage).
– In the above cases, we discard only apunnabhisankhara (apunna abhi sankhara or immoral), AND cultivate punnabhisankhara (punna abhi sankhara or moral). This is important to remember.
– When one becomes an Arahant, one would have seen the anicca nature of ALL sankhara. This is what is stated as “sabba sankharesu anicca sanna” in the Sabbasava sutta. So, we all don’t need to worry about the anicca nature of sabba sankhara yet!
– At the Arahant stage, one will still do punna kriya to help others, and will still engage in sankhara (to live), but has comprehended the anicca nature of all sankhara.

Make sure to know the real meaning of sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“.

[Lal]

Donna is exactly right. This can be said in many different ways, and another is paticca samuppada: pati icca leading to sama uppada; see the “Paticca Samuppada” section.

• As long as one engages in apayagami activities, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the apayas becomes possible.
• As long as one engages in sensual activities, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the kama loka becomes possible.
• As long as one enjoys and craves jhanic pleasures, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the brahma loka becomes possible.

When one realizes that none of those lead to a PERMANENT happiness, one loses upadana for them one by one, starting with the apayagami activities. At that stage, one may still enjoy sense pleasures, and thus may not have lost upadana for them. It is a step-by-step process.

Again, I want to emphasize that just avoiding the physical activity (in this case eating cookies) not enough. With time, one needs to suppress indulging in conscious thoughts about those cookies (vaci sankhara) too. That is the harder step.

Now, it is also IMPORTANT to realize that eating a cookie or two once in a while is not a problem. We cannot avoid eating tasty things all the time and that is not needed. It is a balance and one will KNOW the difference between just eating a few cookies to quench hunger and craving for cookies. It is the CRAVING that needs to be gradually reduced. One WILL KNOW whether one has cravings or not. So, an effort needs to be made to gradually reduce that craving.

This is why real “sila” is not a mere a set of rules. One’s mind knows when one craves. This is such an important point that let me give another example.
– Suppose one abstains from the “five precepts”: not even killing an ant, no stealing, no sexual misconduct outside marriage, no lying, and no getting drunk/drugs, etc. So, it may appear that person is a “moral person”. But he/she may not have lost upadana for such activities.
– IF that person spends hours at a time thinking angry thoughts about someone who said a bad thing, or fantasize about having a sexual encounter with another person, etc, he/she is still breaking the five precepts.

Now, these vaci sankhara cannot be stopped quickly. One needs to work on it. It may take time. That is how one cultivates Anapana/Satipatthana. A good approach is to think about the drawbacks/dangers in continuing such conscious thoughts.

It is the javana power of thoughts that determine how strong a kamma is. Even without using the physical body one can do strong kamma with the mind via vaci sankhara: “cetana ham bhikkhave kammam vadami”, or “bhikkhus, I say kamma is one’s intention”. I have explained that intention is complex and may involve many different types of mental factors (cetasika); see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“.

Johnny said: “Indulging in vanilla cookies is no different from smoking weeds.”
Yes and no. If done with craving, they both bind one to the kama loka. But smoking weed can be bad for the brain, much more than cookies are bad for general health. Smoking weed or taking hard drugs can distort one’s mind and thus make one do apayagami actions too. So, not all sense pleasures are the same.

[Lal]

Embodied said: “..but for now i’m more concerned with the fears related to what can happen during our actual bhava”.

Any stress/fear that is in the mind is has its origins in dasa akusala. This may not be obvious. This is called “tapa” or “heat in the mind”. One really realizes the relief only AFTER one gets rid of it. This is the basis of Satipatthana; see, ” Satipatthana Sutta – Structure“.

More details in: “Sutta Interpretations“, and the first several sections of “Living Dhamma“.

It is relatively easy to abstain from killing, lying, etc. There are three harder aspects that people seem not to pay attention to:
1. Day dreaming or fantasizing about sense pleasures (especially sexual nature). These seem to be harmless, but can lead to so much “heating of the mind”; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
2. Getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi.
3. Controlling excess greed and anger.

When such thoughts creep into the mind, one should immediately get rid of them. That is the basis of Anapana and Satipatthana.

Embodied said: “I created a “mantra” (kind of) that i keep repeating : whatever “I” am, this body is but a transient expression of such “I”.”

Chanting by itself will not work. That can keep the mind off of such “bad vaci sankhara” only during that chanting. One needs to keep such vaci sankhara from creeping in to the mind at all times, whenever possible. Initially hard, but will get easier with time.

[Lal]

Embodied asked: “Can a good, well-sinked understanding of Tilakhanna help to overcome fear..?”

Fear is two kinds:
1. Fear of losing things in this life, fear of getting sick, losing loved ones, of ghosts, of bad dreams, etc etc. What we can call “mundane fears”.
2. But one should fear most is the possible birth in the apayas. Such a suffering will not be limited to a mere 100 years.

To give a brief answer:
1. Fear of mundane things can be reduced/eliminated by the mundane eitghtfold path.
2. Fear of possible rebirth in the apayas may not be truly comprehensible until that mundane path is cultivated and most of the “mundane fears are understood to be relatively insignificant” compared to the more serious one. Then one starts on eliminating those more significant fears.

In order to work on the more serious fears, one needs to have a relatively calm mindset that is attained via the mundane path. A good indication is when one does not see terrible dreams anymore, for example, and have a general sense of calmness.

As I mentioned just today under another topic (“Is circumambulation a mere rite or ritual?“), “sila, samadhi, panna” or the mundane path leads to the second more important stage of “panna, sila, samadhi”, as discussed in the post, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“.
– As, discussed there, “sila” will have a deeper meaning in the second stage; that is an unbreakable “sila” (called the “Ariyakanta sila”) that comes with the comprehension of Tilakkhana.

All fears are eliminated only at the Arahant stage. It is only an Arahant that is not afraid of even death. In fact, an Arahant is said to be looking forward to the day when all sufferings experienced with this human body ends, and to enter the permanent Nibbana.

[Lal]

Firewns said: “Is it really a kusala kamma to do so, or merely a form of silabbata-paramaso?”

Contemplating on recent discussions, I realized that I need to make an important clarification regarding a possible misconception about silabbata paramasa, and also punna kamma.

Silabbata paramasa DOES NOT mean sila is bad. It just means one cannot attain Nibbana JUST via sila, i.e., just by living a moral life.

However, sila is an important and critical part of setting up the background to attain Nibbana, and doing meritorious deeds (punna kamma) is an essential part of sila. One CANNOT skip that step. And when one attains Arahanthood or even the Buddhahood, one does not stop doing punna kamma. It should become a habit to engage in punna kamma. It makes one’s heart joyful.

Just like one cannot do calculus without first understanding simple mathematics, one cannot get rid of silabbata paramasa by not appreciating the value of sila; see, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“, and “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

[Lal]

@Inflib (Donna): That is a wonderful message that you sent to you daughters.

I would encourage everyone to read that post (in a thread above) by Donna today, May 1, 2018.

A young mind can be molded for good or bad. It is CRITICALLY important to make sure that one’s children are brought up with high morals.

Another is not to let them associate with “bad friends”. Family and friends play a key role in a young person’s future.

Actually, that holds true for adults too. It is important to dissociate from those who have immoral values (even if one can have a “good time” with them partying), if they insist on keeping the old ways. Actually, in some cases, they may change for the better by associating with you; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)“.

[Lal]

Johnny said: “Does performing punna kamma fall into an Amoha category?”

Punna kamma can be done with amoha or with panna.
Think about it. The Buddha is the one who has done the most punna kamma.
If you read the dasa punna kamma, you will see that teaching Dhamma to others is a punna kamma.

[Lal]

@y not: There are no inconsistencies in Buddha Dhamma. There is only ignorance on the part of who do not yet understand Buddha Dhamma (and this is a very high percentage). We are all ignorant to some level; we must strive to get better every day.

The following are basic pillars that are critical. It may be a good idea to keep them by the side at all times.

1. There are root causes and there are conditions. One cannot give another causes (via pattidana or by any other means); one can give only conditions, so to speak.
2. The six root causes are lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, alobha, amoha.

– Moha is “covered mind” and a less potent version of it is avijja. One acts with lobha and dosa when one has moha.
– Amoha is when one acts without moha; but amoha does not necessarily mean wisdom (panna).
– When one has very little panna, one acts with moha and accumulates dasa akusala. That leads to much suffering in the lower realms.
– One acts with amoha and cultivates dasa punna kamma and dasa kusala kamma, and those lead to rebirths in the higher realms, where there is less suffering.

3. When one is on the mundane eightfold path, one learns the basic of Buddha Dhamma (punna/papa, kusala/akusala, truth of the rebirth process, etc), and that makes it possible to avoid dasa akusala and stay away from harsh sufferings.
4. However, in order to remove ALL root causes and to stop all suffering, one needs to learn the higher Dhamma (including Tilakkhana), and to see the fruitlessness and dangers in the rebirth process, including those “good realms”.
5. As I said above, one cannot remove those six root CAUSES from the minds of another. Otherwise, the Buddha would have done it for everyone.

– One can only make CONDITIONS for another to gain wisdom (panna) and to help that person remove those root causes by THEMSELVES. Again, one cannot cultivate panna of another, BUT one can teach true Dhamma to another and help that person gain wisdom.

6. I will give just a simple example to make this point. One can make another angry, greedy, etc or calm even without subtle ways like pattidana. Just “hanging out” with immoral people can make one get to a “bad mindset” and to do bad things. And the opposite is true too. Good friends/family keeps one away from trouble and make one’s life better.

– But it is ultimately up to EACH PERSON to make lasting progress by removing the six root causes, starting with the first three: lobha, dosa, moha (by staying away from dasa akusala, which includes the ten types of micca ditthi).
– I keep repeating these basic but CRITICAL things, but I am not sure how many people pay attention to these key points.

[Lal]

Hi Johnny,

No. There is no need to “maintain” an Ariya jhana; once attained, it is never lost.

The reason is that, for example, in the first Ariya jhana kama raga anusaya is removed. So, there is no way for kama raga to EVER come back to that mind. Therefore, it is a PERMANENT change.

On the other hand, kama raga is only SUPPRESSED when one attains anariya jhana (anusaya is still there). Even during that lifetime itself kama raga can come back, and one could lose the anariya jhana.

However, if one dies with the first anariya jhana intact, then one will be born in the corresponding brahma realm. Again, he/she will come back to human realm and can go to apayas too.

[Lal]

Johnny said: “Can a punna kamma be rooted in ignorance even if it is done out of faith?”.

We need to clarify faith (saddha) first. In Buddha Dhamma, saddha comes through understanding, and different people may have different levels of understanding. Nevertheless, any act done with saddha makes one’s heart joyful, and thus is a punna kamma. This is explained in the post “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

As also explained in that post, some punna kamma may not be kusala kamma, but they ALWAYS make conditions that can lead to kusala kamma. Buddha taught that punna kamma are NECESSARY to cultivate the Path.

Johnny said: “..we know there is no sculpture of Buddha during Buddha’s time and that the Buddha does not advocate idol worshipping.”

This is absolutely wrong. It is true that Buddha Statues were not there at the time of the Buddha. But worshipping symbols REPRESENTING the Buddha were there at the time of the Buddha. There is the following account in the Tipitaka:
People brought many things to offer to the Buddha at Jetavanarama. If the Buddha was not there, they went back disappointed. When Ven. Ananda mentioned this to the Buddha, the Buddha asked a Bo tree to be planted there and to instruct people to make those offerings to that Bo tree. It was called “Ananda Bodhi“. It was just a symbol representing the Buddha. One’s feelings are based on one’s reverence for the Buddha, not for the symbol.

Of course, the same goes for offering fruits, lights, incense and other offerings to the Buddha statue. Faith is in one’s mind, not in any symbol.

A crude analogy can be given in terms of paper money that we use today. A hundred- dollar bill has no real intrinsic value. But it is accepted by the society to have a value of $100.

[Lal]

y not said: “.. My mind goes: If there was any hatred, it was in him/her. Rather I feel compassion for him/her having this fire of hatred for me, if he/she still has it.”

Exactly. One can only work to cleanse one’s own mind. If each person does that, this world will be a much better place for everyone.

[Lal]

@y not: I already deleted your extra post.

I don’t think any of you are allowed to delete published posts. Just make sure everything is good before hitting the submit button.

[Lal]

I just received the following email from Siebe (some of you may remember Siebe). He and I still correspond via email.

Hi Lal,

As a reaction on a forum topic.

Probably you know, but MN20 deals with how to anticipate on unwholesome thoughts.

It describes 5 methods.

1. direct the mind to another sign, a sign which is connected with wholesome emotions, such as the sign of unattractiveness while lust arises or a sign of danger in the case of sensual pleasure.
   Unwholesome thoughts arise especially in mind directed to signs like ‘attractive’, ‘no danger’, beautifull, in control, etc.
2. do unwholesome thought still arise then one must contemplate on the danger of such thoughts
3. if they still keep arising one must give them no attention, just ignore them
4. if they still keep arising or are still present one must try to calm down the thought-formation process.
   it is like wondering why one is in such a hurry and slow down oneself, slow down the thought formations
5. If this still does not work one has to forcefully suppress them and conquer bad thoughts with good mind like a strong man would do with a weaker man.

kind regards,
Siebe

Thank you, Siebe. It is a good reference and a decent translation is at:
“Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts“

[Author]

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