On the "All"

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    • #15067
      Embodied
      Spectator

      Hi,

      The “All” being the 6 senses/aggregates ( 5 senses + mind ), does such “All” include the 31 realms ?

      Thanks

    • #15079
      y not
      Participant

      ‘The “All” being the 6 senses/aggregates ( 5 senses + mind )’ ??

      Try to formulate the question better.

      For a start, it is the 31 realms that include within them this “All” you are refering to (the salayatana)and how many of them and which will vary according to the grouping of those realms.

      I can do no better here where the All is taken to be just the salayatana. I reserve the term ‘the All’ for the whole of Existence, both as container and the contained, Nibbana included. And, truly speaking, infinite Existence cannot be described by the word container, as a container has a limit or border, while Infinite Space has none.
      Try to reserve your hyperboles for where they are due, otherwise it comes, in a subtle way,to a disrespect for that All.

      y not

    • #15081
      Embodied
      Spectator

      I’m not disrespecting anyone. There is a tendency to judge too hastily and based upon what ? Upon what ?
      The question is enough well formulated:

      • Sabba Sutta:

      “The Blessed One said, “What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, ‘Repudiating this All, I will describe another,’ if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range.”

      And by the way: as much as i understood the forum rules, directives for effective research, freedom of expression, etc, till now i didn’t disrespect anyone.

      With metta

    • #15083
      y not
      Participant

      Embodied:

      That is precisely why I said I can do no better (leaving some one
      else to supply a comprehensive answer.) for to me ‘the All’ means something else, as I explained.

      And had you specified which’All’ you are refering to, quoting a sutta, I would not have replied at all. There are others who are up to that.

      No disrespect to you at all, Embodied. As you put it, it would appear that the ‘All’ was YOUR description of the 5 senses + the mind.

      y not

      • #15087
        Embodied
        Spectator

        Y Not, Sangha fellow(s),

        “And had you specified which’All’ you are referring to, quoting a sutta, I would not have replied at all.” – Why wouldn’t you have replied at all ? It’s your right, i suppose.

        As for my question : of course that underlying my question was Sabba Sutta – what else could be ?

        Another indirectly related track: “Everything is mind wrought” -which suggests the hypothesis of mind and aggregates existing before mankind?

    • #15085
      Lal
      Keymaster

      @Embodied and @y not:

      As Embodied said, in the Sabba Sutta, the Budha defined the “sabba” or all for a given person as one’s 6 internal ayatana and 6 external ayatana (what is experienced by those 6 internal ayatana).

      And that is basically one’s pancakkhandha; see, “Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.

      One can look at this a bit deeper, even though that is not critical. Since we all had been born in most of the 31 realms, memories from all those lives are with our pancakkhandha. Of course, we don’t remember them. But if one develops abhinna powers, then one can recall them.

    • #15096
      Embodied
      Spectator

      It’s possible to go back one or two rebirths (the closest ones to our actual rebirth) without abhinna powers.
      But I don’t know if I can talk about this here seeing that it’s extra – Tipitaka. Although it’s perfectly compatible with PureDhamma.

      • #15100
        Johnny_Lim
        Participant

        Hi Embodied,

        Please share your experience.

        Thanks.

    • #15101
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Embodied said: “It’s possible to go back one or two rebirths (the closest ones to our actual rebirth) without abhinna powers.”

      That is true. But normally, one can see past HUMAN lives only. That means this life cannot be the birth (jati) within this human bhava. Whoever can remember past lives, must have been born human within the current human bhava.

      Suppose X was a deva in the previous bhava. So, if this is X’s first jati in this human bhava, X will not be able to remember his past life as deva.

      But if X develops abhinna powers, X could see that past life as a deva.

      By the way, this is how ancient Hindu yogis decided that life in Brahma realms lasts forever; They could see all lives up to that, but could not see any lives before that. That is because those brahma realms have very long lifetimes.

      This is why the Baka brahma also told the Buddha, that his life was forever; see #12 of “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“. Because he also could not see a life before that (it was in the higher pabhassara realm).

      A Buddha can see past lives without any limits.

      These details may not be necessary. But the consistency of it all leads to confidence in Buddha Dhamma. What the Buddha taught was not speculation (like philosophers have their own theories today). He experienced all that.

      Please do share your experience about past lives if you remember. Such personal experiences are always informative.

    • #15107
      Embodied
      Spectator

      Hi,

      “These details may not be necessary. But the consistency of it all leads to confidence in Buddha Dhamma. What the Buddha taught was not speculation (like philosophers have their own theories today). He experienced all that.”
      Absolutely, otherwise i wouldn’t be here.
      Now as for the previous closest rebirths it’s not about any kind of ESP – extra sensorial perception.
      It’s about simple intellectual knowledge;let’s call it Kammic Astrology. Based upon one’s birth date it’s possible to get quite accurate info on one’s previous human bhava in terms of gati.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmic_astrology

      AS FOR THE ETERNAL CONTROVERSE ON ASTROLOGY VALUE, the Wikipedia article it’s quite good:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

      • #15115
        Johnny_Lim
        Participant

        The Buddha prohibited the bikkhus from earning a livelihood via astrology, palmistry, geomancy etc. Which implies that astrology is not in line with Buddha Dhamma.

        • #15118
          Embodied
          Spectator

          Well good to know, thanks for the precious info. But it might be insightful to know why.

          Certainly for reasons other than the ones of the christian Popes.

          • #15119
            Johnny_Lim
            Participant

            Brahmajala Sutta says:

            21. “Or he might say: ‘Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as:[4] prophesying long life, prosperity etc., or the reverse, from the marks on a person’s limbs, hands, feet etc; divining by means of omens and signs; making auguries on the basis of thunderbolts and celestial portents; interpreting ominous dreams; telling fortunes from marks on the body; making auguries from the marks on cloth gnawed by mice; offering fire oblations; offering oblations from a ladle; offering oblations of husks, rice powder, rice grains, ghee, and oil to the gods; offering oblations from the mouth; offering blood-sacrifices to the gods; making predictions based on the fingertips; determining whether the site for a proposed house or garden is propitious or not; making predictions for officers of state; the knowledge of charms to lay demons in a cemetery; the knowledge of charms to cure one possessed by ghosts; the knowledge of charms to be pronounced by one living in an earthen house; the snake craft (for curing snake bites and charming snakes); the poison craft (for neutralizing or making poison); the scorpion craft and rat craft (for curing scorpion stings and rat bites, respectively); the bird craft and crow craft (for understanding the cries of birds and crows); foretelling the number of years that a man has to live; the knowledge of charms to give protection from arrows; reciting charms to understand the language of animals — the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts.’

            These crafts are classified as wrong livelihood simply because they are not in-line with the goal. Messing around with these deviant practices will only bring more suffering.

    • #15120
      Embodied
      Spectator

      …will only bring more suffering by thickening the gandhabba, by engendering more and ore kammic ties , more and more bhavas…?

    • #15121
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Not sure what is meant by thickening the gandhabba. These are worldly things. Which means if one were to cling to them, it will only make one more deluded.

    • #15140
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      SNP 4.14 – The Quick Way

      “One of my followers would not cast spells,
      Or interpret dreams,
      Nor would they practice astrology,
      Prognosticate animal sounds,
      Practice fertility magic,
      Or [earn money] as a healer.”

    • #15143
      Embodied
      Spectator

      …I had got it , Johnny Lim, no worries… by the way the SNP 4.14 link seems to be a nice translation. Very well written.

    • #26160
      lodonyo
      Participant

      Buddhas followers didnt earn money though…? Earning money in general seems to go against the very idea of ”giving without expecting anything in return”.

    • #26166
      Lal
      Keymaster

      lodonyo wrote: “Buddhas followers didnt earn money though…? Earning money in general seems to go against the very idea of ”giving without expecting anything in return”.

      No. That is a misconception.
      It is only bhikkhus who are not supposed to earn money (they are taken care of by the lay disciples.)

      A layperson has to make money to buy food, clothes, medicine, etc. AND to sustain the family (if married.)

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