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@Tobias: The bottom line is that one attains the Arahanthood by clearly seeing the futility of being born ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
That is reached in steps. First one sees the dangers in cultivating sankhara with the three unwholesome roots. That leads to the Sotapanna stage, and stopping rebirth in the apayas.
Then one sees the futility in born in the kama loka, at a higher level of panna (wisdom). That leads to stopping rebirth in human and deva realms.
All those were done by cultivating sankhara with the three wholesome or good roots. That process continues to the Arahant stage, where one can see the futility in being reborn even in the rupavacara and arupavacara brahma realms.
To look at it from another way: The panna cetasika is optimized only at the Arahant stage. At that point one has attained “Samma Nana”, which is the optimum nana (vision of the true nature of this world is complete), and that leads to “Samma Vimutti” or “total and complete release”.
This is why it is said that: “Attangehi samannagato Sekha, dasa angehi samannagato Arahant” or “one who is completing the Noble Eightfold Path is a Trainee, and one who has completed the next two (Samma Nana and Samma Vimutti) is an Arahant“.
So, when one attains the Arahant stage, there is no NEED to cultivate even the three good roots. “What needs to be done is done; there is nothing nmore to do”.
All six roots lead to rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms. It is just that cultivating the three good roots leads to the “knowledge of the real nature of this world”. But that REQUIRES hearing about Tilakkhana from a Buddha or a true disciple of a Buddha. Otherwise, just cultivating the three good roots will not get one to Nibbana.
You asked: “Can someone post a link to a sutta with explanation of tihetuka, dvihetuka, ahetuka patisandhi? Or can this topic only be found in the Abhidhamma?”
– I think the explanation is available only in Abhidhamma. I could be wrong.Yes. There is a difference between kama and kama raga. There may be a trace of kama left in an Anagami, but that is not enough to lead to a birth in kama loka.
That trace of kama is likely to be associated with rupa raga (and avijja) which are two samyojanas removed at the Arahant stage.
You asked: ” In the days of the Buddha, did people listening to His discourses go from anariya to Anagami or Arahant right away, bypassing the Sotapanna stage?”
Yes. There are many accounts in the Tipitaka, of people attaining any of the four stages of magga phala while listening to a desana or even a single verse.
– But that always happens in the sequence: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant. It is just that even all four can take place within a short time, ending in the Arahant stage. So, it is not really bypassing any intermediate stage.@Akvan: Yes. You are right when you said: “From this I think hiri and otappa are for trainees (sekkha) and may be even for anariyas”.
Without hiri (shame of immoral deeds) and otappa (fear of the consequences of immoral deeds), it is not possible to cultivate sati and samadhi.
This is the right forum for your questions.
Yes. Paticca Samuppada (PS)is very complex. Avijja and tanha go together. They are both removed at the Arahant phala moment.
You asked: “Perhaps more clearly, can avijja paccaya tanha by doing so without the involvement of sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa and vedana? ”
- The key point is that the PS cycle runs from “avijja paccaya sankhara” to “upadana paccaya bhava” step in the suddhashtaka-generating step.
- That “bhava energy” created up to that point can now bring vipaka EITHER at that moment OR at a later time, starting from “bhava paccaya jati“.
- This is a highly-condensed answer to your question. It is probably not necessary to get into such details, but I mentioned it because you specifically asked. Sometimes, one needs to get to deep Abhidhamma to explain subtle points.
- It is enough for most purposes to understand that a particular bhava (and jati) arises due to the cultivation of certain type of (abhi)sankhara, based on one’s level of avijja and gati.
– Within there, many complex inter-connecting steps can occur, like “sankhara paccaya avijja”
– All this happens within a fraction of a second, in javana citta in a citta vithi.– In particular in a “uppatti PS”, the vipaka may come much later, even in a future birth. So, the “bhava paccaya jati” step comes later.
– In pavutti PS, the results appear at that time. For example, when one is drinking alcohol at a party, one is generating kaya, vaci, and mano sankhara related to that and may end up in the “drunkard bhava” and a “drunkard jati” (become drunk) at that time.– For example, births in the apayas are due to the cultivation of apunnabhisankhara or immoral deeds/speech, and thoughts. Births in a rupavacra brahma realm is due to the cultivation of rupavacara jhanas, which is a type of punnabhisankhara.
– Both are done with avijja, but at very different levels.@lucas.cambon: I have explained in detail my reasons; see, for example, my comment on March 7, 2018 at 7:07 am, and a couple of more comments after that addressing various other issues.
If you or anyone else can refute those, I would be happy to discuss further. Please quote from my statements, so that we know exactly what point is being discussed.
I cannot recommend specific meditation techniques, because each person is different and needs to decide on that. General information is at:
“Bhāvanā (Meditation)“.Regarding the second question, there has been a lengthy discussion at:
“Goenka´s Vipassana”
If you have a question specific to this particular technique, it is better to be asked there.This topic was in the “General Forum” and I just moved it to this forum, where it should be.
I just opened a new forum: “Meditation Forum“.
You can open a new topic there.
@Vince: Sorry. I guess I did not catch that it was his father. So, let us look at your specific question:
“I had a specific question about the issue of a dying parent being placed on or removed from life support; Does it count as an anantariya kamma if
1) a person chooses not to place a dying parent on life support or
2) if the person chooses to cease giving life support to a dying parent?”
First of all, in cases like this, children SHOULD NOT get involved in the decision making; it is far too dangerous for them. It is best to leave such decisions to the medical personnel (and maybe to other close relatives, who would not be subjected to anantariya kamma).
With that out of the way, I think either decision above could be counted as anantariya kamma in some cases and possibly not in other cases (as you said, it depends on what types of cetasika arise in the mind of the decision maker).
This is why it is best to leave the decision to others. Even if they make the “wrong decision”, it will not become an anantariya kamma for them. I remember a desana by Waharaka Thero, where he said that usually son-in-law or daughter-in-law could consult with medical personnel to make such decisions. That makes sense to me.
Those two types of micca ditthi are applicable only for the humans.
Even though many animals also have a mother and father, and have those two types of micca ditthi that is irrelevant anyway; they have no sense of other types of micca ditthi either.
The term gandhabba is normally reserved for the “mental body” (kammaja kaya) of a human or an animal. In most other realms, the living being is formed with “a full body” at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
The preta realm belongs to the apayas, i.e., it is one of the lowest four realms. Animal realm also belongs to the apayas.
So, there is a huge difference between a human gandhabba and a preta. There is also a huge difference between a human gandhabba, animal gandhabba. The word preta is not used to refer to a gandhabba.
I think the possible confusion may come from the fact that some pretas have very fine bodies, just like (human or animal) gandhabbas. But brahmas also have such fine bodies, and brahmas are very different from gandhabbas or pretas.
The following post provides some references from the Tipitaka for a human gandhabba:”Gandhabba State – Evidence from Tipiṭaka“.
Without the concept of a gandhabba, it is not possible to have a consistent picture of human and animal realms. For example, the difference between bhava and jati is impossible.
These are discussed in the following sections. You can scan through and read those of interest:
“Mental Body – Gandhabba“.When the gandhabba is not inside a physical body (when it is waiting for a womb), it is in “paralowa“. Not believing in paralowa is one of the 10 types of micca ditthi; see #5 of “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)“.
P.S. Any sutta that discusses the 10 types of micca ditthi will have the reference to “para loka“. Actually, the term “parolowa” is the Sinhala word for the Pali term “para loka“. I need to revise those posts with the word “paralowa” with “para loka“.
- “In the post “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāshtaka” it discusses how kammic energy is cyclical”.
- “Also, where does the “1000 fold” bad or good kammic energy come from upon repayment/kamma vipāka arising? If we only personally put in “x” amount of energy into the akusala/kusala bucket, who’s putting in the other 999%”
- “Another question that pops into mind, if an Arahant isn’t generating any energy to keep the gandhabba in existence, what is?”
-That is not correct. Kammic energy is NOT recycled. That kammic energy can bring vipaka, and based on those vipaka, we do NEW kamma and create NEW kammic energy. So one could accumulate many such kamma beeja during a given life. That is why the rebirth process does not end for a normal human.
– All that is said in that post (or any other post) is that a seemingly “small” kamma actually may have vipaka that SEEMS TO BE disproportionate; but actually it is not disproportionate.
– For example, we may think that killing a human by shooting once with a gun, could not bring vipaka where one will be subjected to suffering in the apayas for millions of years. But that is how kamma/kamma vipaka work. The javana power that arise in a mind is responsible for that. In order to kill a human, a lot of hate must arise in a mind. This is why kamma is a subject that is acinteyya (not fully understandable) by a human other than a Buddha.– The physical body of the Arahant (and the gandhabba within that body) arose due to a past kamma (i.e., a kamma beeja that was created in the past). The physical body and the gandhabba will be kept alive by that previous kammic energy.
– For a normal human, another existing kamma beeja will initiate a new bhava (and new jati), when the kammic energy for the current human bhava runs out. Then that energy will support potentially many births during that bhava, until that energy runs out, and so on. It is never ending process until Parinibbana.Any physical action takes effort, so it is dukkha. Therefore, dukkha was experienced by both the Buddha and Ven. Ananda. However, Buddha’s actions did not involve abhisankhara (sankhara with kammic consequences), whereas Ven. Ananda (who was not an Arahant at that time) did.
Many of these questions can be answered by understanding what is meant by sankhara and abhisankhara. See, “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and posts therein.
- “..I think it was mentioned that an Arahant would eventually have to let go of even the Buddha’s Teachings”
- “In this case, are the Buddha’s teachings themselves anicca?… Buddha’s teachings can get distorted and parts of it can fail to get passed down…” and “If the Buddha’s teachings become distorted or incomplete, might that cause dukkha? “
- “Finally to Arahants, are the Buddha’s Teachings anatta? Is it the case that after having grasped their essence, they become devoid of worth and substance, and have to be let go of? To further cling to The Buddha’s Teachings would only serve to impede their progress?”
- “I think that an asankata such as nama gotte is anatta in nature, but does not have anicca or dukkha. Thus the three characteristics do not have to occur together in the case of nama gotte, an asankata.”
– It is not that an Arahant HAS TO let go of Buddha’s teachings. Buddha Dhamma is needed to attain Nibbana. Once attained there is NO NEED for it.
– Distorted Dhamma is NOT Buddha dhamma.
– Buddha Dhamma is NOT of anicca nature.– Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabee sankhara dukkha, and sabbe DHAMMA anatta.
– Sabbe dhamma includes all. So, yes in the end (once Arahanthood is attained) that is also of no use.
– We need to remember that somethings in this world NEED to be used to attain Nibbana, even if they have anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.
For example, doing punna kamma is an abhisankhara (it is a punnabhisankhara). So, it is of anicca nature. But we MUST do punna kamma to prepare the background to attain Nibbana.
– In the step-by-step process, one stops doing papa kamma (apunnabhisankhara) first. Then as one gets closer to Arahanthood, any punnabhisankhara and anenjabhi sankhara (cultivating arupavacara jhana) will also be stopped. – – At Arahanthood, there is no more abhisankhara to be done, and no more Dhamma to be followed.– Anything is this world is of anatta nature, including nama gotta and even Buddha Dhamma. But one NEEDS Buddha Dhamma to attain Nibbana. Once Nibbana is attained, there is no need for Buddha Dhamma FOR THAT Arahant.
@Vince and @firewrns:
This issue has been discussed under several topics, and a couple of links are given below.Three main things to remember are:
- There are five anantariya kamma: killing mother, killing father, killing an Arahant, injuring a Buddha (a Buddha cannot killed), Sangha bheda (which is interpreted as schism among Sangha, but also includes misinterpretation of Dhamma).
–No other kamma will be an anantariya kamma.
2.In many instances, an action may involve both kusala/punna kamma and akusala/papa kamma. Sorting out some complex situations is almost impossible.
– As one progresses on the Path, one will automatically make right decisions.- Regarding #2 above, “cetana” in an action is determined by the what types of cetasika arise AUTOMATICALLY in one’s mind. That is based on one’s understanding of Dhamma.
These are discussed in:
“Clarification of definition – ” anantariya“”“What is Intention in Kamma?“.
“Kanha (Dark) and Sukka (Bright) Kamma and Kammakkhaya”
Kamma is a complex subject. The third post above should be read at the end. It discusses “effective removal of kamma“.
The key point is that these complex issues will be resolved in stages as one progresses on the path. But it is OK to think about them. When reading the above discussions and posts, hopefully things will become more clear.
The need to learn about the 31 realms is somewhat similar to the need to learn Abhidhamma. They are both not necessary, but could provide additional information to build faith in Buddha Dhamma. However, for those who are not that familiar with these, it could raise questions like the ones Aniduan has raised.
Since Buddha Dhamma describes a much wider world (with 31 realms) than just the 2 realms (human and animal) that we are aware of, it initially takes some effort to start understanding this “big picture”. Even though 31 realms makes the picture more complex, it is necessary in order to have a self-consistent picture of the world.
For example, it is not possible to explain laws of kamma and paticca samuppada without the 31 realms. Let me just take a simple example to make this point.
Births in various realms are according to one gati.
One’s gati are cultivated via “what kind of things one enjoys or likes”: “pati icca leading sama uppada” or paticca samuppada; see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda“.Those with vicious hateful gati are likely to be born in the niraya (hell). Those with excess greed are likely to be born in the preta realms. Those with “lazy gati” are likely to be born in the asura realm. Those with “animal gati” in animal realms, those with “good moral gati” in human and deva realms. On the other hand, there are some who cultivate jhana and value jhanic pleasures much more than sense pleasures in human and deva realms. They are born in the brahma realms.
Since there are very few with abhinna powers these days, it may be a bit difficult to “believe in the existence of those realms”. On the other hand, for those who have studied Dhamma in detail, it is easy to see the need for all those realms.
So, it depends on the person. This is why each person should follow what makes sense and other things may become clear with time. It is not possible for each and every person to have the same understanding, which evolves with time too.
For a deeper analysis, see: “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“.
