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firewns said: “I also notice something curious. In the pavutti PS or uppati PS, avijja, sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa paccaya each other in forward or reverse order. Could it be even more complex than that?”
Yes. But it cannot randomly jump here and there. For example, it cannot be “vinnana paccaya salayatana”, skipping the “viannana paccaya namarupa” step in between.
– But the reverse order can happen: “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “namarupa paccaya vinnana” both happen: “Asevana and Annamanna Paccaya“.
– This is a complex subject. It may take time for all the details to sink in. Don’t worry too much about that. It took me years to get to get this stage, and I am still learning.“Thus the order would seem to be like this instead: phassa paccaya namarupa, namarupa paccaya salayatana, salayatana paccaya vinnana. Am I right to think that this is another possible version of PS?”
Absolutely not. That is random.“Also, it seems to me that inherent in namarupa are vedana, sanna and tanha as well, i.e. in namarupa, we have our feelings, perceptions and desires tied up with it.”
That is correct. The “nama” part has vedana, sanna, etc.Glad to hear that you are making progress, Eric. Keep it up!
“Couldn’t the manic-depressive states also be described as the semi-randomized experiencing of extremes of high- and low-mindedness? Or is this a misinterpretation of uddacca and kukkucca?”
It certainly could. This is why it is important to keep the mind calm as much as possible AND to learn Dhamma. Exposing oneself to distracting environment, whether it is unclean physical surroundings or loud music, violent video games, even too much television, can make the mind agitated.
– Then to top it off, the annantara samanantara paccaya will attract “bad previous kamma vipaka” too.
– So, it is important to gradually reduce such exposure. It may be hard to do in the beginning but stick with it.
– This is why they keep drug addicts in isolation forcibly sometimes (not for too long initially, but they keep increasing the isolation time).firewns said: “Lal, I agree that at least initially it is not possible to control what kind of cetasikas arise as the cittas arise so rapidly. However can kamma beeja be altered, or if not, at least have its effects modified by other kamma beeja?”
It is not that kamma beeja need to be altered. They are unable to bring vipaka (especially in rebirth) when panna is cultivated.
– For example, when one attains the Sotapanna stage, all kamma beeja that can bring in rebirth in the apayas become ineffective. No kamma beeja can bring rebirth once the Arahant stage is attained.However, kamma vipaka can bring in results for humans until the Arahant’s physical body dies. This has to do with the mental body from being shielded by the physical body. But if a brahma attains the Arahanthood, that brahma will immediately attain Parinibbana, because a brahma does not have a physical body.
This is why Angulimala, who killed 999 people was able to attain the Arahanthood. He did not grasp a new birth at the death of the physical body. But he was subjected to harassment until his death.
To add to what SengKiat stated.
firewns said: “Since sankhara kandha are cetasikas..”
Sankhara are not the same as cetasika, but they are related. Different types of sankhara arise when different combinations of cetasika arise.
For example, if the lobha cetasika (and possibly more related cetasika) arise, then that is an apunna abhisankhara (apunnabhisankhara).
But in another case, dosa cetasika may arise giving rise to another type of apunnabhisankhara.
Regarding the rest of the question:
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1. Vedana and sanna arise with each and every citta. So, yes, they are both in any sankhara.
- Vinnana is the overall sense experience that includes sankhara. Therefore, sankharakkhandha is part of vinnannakkandha.
- But vinnana is more. While vedana, sanna, and sankhara are all nama, and rupa is all rupa, vinnana is the bridge between nama and rupa, leading to namarupa: “vinnana paccaya namarupa“.
- That is a subtle point, so don’t worry too much if anyone does not really understand that yet. For those who need more information: “Viññāna Aggregate“.
- An easy way to see that is on’es own house is a rupa. The name “my house” that comes to our mind comes with a picture that has both the shape and features of the house and one’s feelings, perceptions, desires about it too. So, what comes to the mind is a namarupa.
– That means vedanakkhandha and sannakkhandha are parts of the bigger sankharakkhandha.
– Vedana and sanna are two critical and special types of cetasika. That is why they are listed separately from other 50 cetasika.firewns said:”For example, if one is donating money to charitable organisations, one can do so without expecting anything in return (alobha). One can also sincerely wish for the benefits of the needy when they receive financial aid from these organisations (adosa). But how can one cultivate the amoha cetasika in such a case?”
This is related to your question on another forum here on the arising of cetasika (sankhara) automatically within a split second.
At least initially, it is not possible to control what kinds of cetasika arise when our attention is grabbed by an external sense input.One CAN and SHOULD deviate the mind from such “unwise” cetasika when one becomes aware of them (that is Anapana or Satipatthana). For example, if one gets the craving to eat a piece of cake that looks delicious, one could suppress such thoughts by thinking about bad consequences of eating too many pieces of cake. Of course, one can eat such things in moderation.
The point is that as one sticks to being mindful, many such spontaneous reactions will reduce with time. That is cultivating panna in one sense.
However, a huge change will happen when one starts comprehending the unfruitful nature of sense attractions (anicca, dukkha,anatta,asubha nature), and that some of them can be outright dangerous. That is when one really cultivates panna.
But it is hard to pin point when that “jump” will happen. One should just keep at it by “being mindful” AND also keep learning Dhamma and contemplating on those concepts.
Another way to say that is to say that panna will grow as one gets rid of bad gati and cultivates good gati.
Eric: It is better if you stay on this thread.
“These happen more often when I’m blue and bored, or already in a bad mood. ”
This is important. A bad mindset attracts bad thoughts, and even bad kamma vipaka.So, it is important to try to stay away from angry thoughts and even video games, loud music etc. A calm and clean external environment together with positive thoughts can make a big difference. You may want to read the following posts:
Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya
(Don’t be put off by the title)The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)
Eric said: “.. I should instead sit down (outside on a park bench if need be), shut up, and fill my head with pure dhamma for about a half-hour?”
Yes. Do whatever that works to get the mind off those incessant cravings.
Compare your effort to the effort of a baby trying to learn to walk. The baby will fall many times a day initially, but will fall and less as he/she makes progress.
In fact, that is a good way to check your progress. Do you fall less and less each new week or each new month? If so, you are making progress. Keep it up and you will feel the joy of not falling for a whole day, a whole week soon enough!
Eris said: “.. I should instead sit down (outside on a park bench if need be), shut up, and fill my head with pure dhamma for about a half-hour?”
Yes. Do whatever that works to get the mind off those incessant cravings.
Compare your effort to the effort of a baby trying to learn to walk. The baby will fall many times a day initially, but will fall and less as he/she makes progress.
In fact, that is a good way to check your progress. Do you fall less and less each new week or each new month? If so, you are making progress. Keep it up and you will feel the joy of not falling for a whole day, a whole week soon enough!
Thanks for pointing this out. I have never used a phone or a mobile device to access the website, so I have no experience on this issue.
However, I know that there are many who use mobile devices to access the website. It would be great if they can comment. Is this a big problem or can one get around this issue easily?
By the way, just to make it clear, one does not need to login to read any of the material, including the posts at the discussion forum. One needs to login only to ask a question at the forum or to reply to a question at the forum.
Here is the link to the discussion forum, where details can be found:
ForumsWelcome to the forum!
It is difficult to recommend exactly which posts to read first, because each person is different and has one’s own unique background.
The following post could be useful:
User’s Guide to Pure Dhamma WebsiteThe following one could be a good resource too:
Pure Dhamma – SitemapPlease feel free to ask questions as you proceed. May be we can recommend some posts based on your questions.
“Perhaps I should start, instead of trying to meditate on abstract concepts like “good” and “love” (I’ve always had trouble with abstractions like math and emotion), and instead try to do sitting meditation sessions while slowly feeling and pinching my belly fat etc and thinking about all the health issues that accompany THIS, not just what I HAVE but what I COULD like diabetes and heart attacks, both of which (like predisposition towards depression and similar mental illnesses) run in the family from BOTH SIDES…”
Yes. This is the key. The Buddha emphasized that the best way to remove cravings is to see the bad consequences of them:
Assāda, Ādīnava, NissaranaUntil one gets rid of the strong cravings (with determination), it is not even possible to grasp Dhamma concepts, because one’s mind is burdened too much tāpa or heat in the mind).
For example, those who do not see the bad consequences of taking drugs will never be able to comprehend Dhamma, until they get rid of that habit. Excess craving for food is below that but not too far below.
y not said: “I ask this because the Buddha on more than one occasion stated that such-and-such a person has ascended to a particular realm ‘and will attain release from there’.
It is true that the Buddha has made such statements regarding SPECIFIC individuals.
When people asked him “what is the gati, what is the birth of so and so who just died?”, the Buddha may have said, he had attained the Sakadagami stage before dying and that he will born in a deva realm and attain Nibbana from there.
That is because the Buddha can see that for that individual.That does not mean it will happen to any Sakadagami. The general rule is that a Sakadagami will not be born again in the human or lower realms and will be born only once in a deva realm. If he/she does not attain Arahanthood there, he/she will be born in a higher realms(s) and attain Nibbana in the future, without ever coming back to the kama loka.
Actually, the way it is written seems to be OK to me. May be I am missing something?
When you say, “Otherwise, it says “keep doing” the same old bad habit.”
I don’t think I said to keep doing the same old habit.Nimitta is used in two different ways:
One is a “sign” that comes to the mind as a kamma vipaka, especially close to the cuti-patisandhi moment when one is about to grasp a new bhava. That is the one discussed in the post.
The second is actually not in Buddha Dhamma, but was incorporated to Buddha Dhamma in the Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa. Hindu yogis did anariya kasina bhavana taking some object (ball of clay, dish of water, a light, etc) as the kasina object. This kasina object is also called a nimitta.
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