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For those who may not have read that post: What are assāda, ādīnava, and nissarana?
– In simple terms, assāda means enjoyment of a sense object, in this case taste of cupcakes.
– Ādīnava means (especially) the long-term bad outcomes of that activity, in this case obesity and health problems in a mundane sense.
– Nissarana is the result. In this case losing craving for cup cakes.So, the steps that Donna (inflib) described are likely to be involved in the ādīnava stage (trying to get rid of the bad habit). As one slowly gets rid of the bad habit, nissarana stage starts and one starts feeling the niramisa sukha.
Of course, it can be applied to getting rid of worse types of cravings too.
If one can have the determination to persevere and get rid of the habit, that is when the niramisa sukha is optimized. One does not have that burden in the mind anymore.
By the way, scientists are only beginning to discover the power of the human mind.
I am glad that Embodied asked this question. I found that bullet #12 of that post had an error that went without catching my eye since it was originally written probably in 2014. I just revised it. Scientists have it wrong with the “Big Bang theory”.
Regarding the questions:
a) “STILL IF A HUMAN HAS GOOD KAMMA SEEDS HE SHOULD REBORN AS HUMAN, NOT AS AN ANIMAL ?”
Not necessarily. We all have innumerable good and bad kamma seeds.
– It depends on which kamma seed is most potent: a good kamma seed leading to a human birth or a bad kamma seed leading to an animal birth.
– Also, good kamma seeds have many varieties: human, deva, brahma, etc and an innumerable varieties within those. For example, a human can be born healthy, handicapped, rich, poor, etc.
– Similarly, bad kamma seeds have many main varieties: animal, preta, vinipata asura, niraya beings, etc, and an innumerable varieties within those.
And each person may have innumerable kamma seeds both good and bad. Which one comes to the front depends on many factors. This is why the Buddha said kamma is one of those things that can never be fully grasped by anyone other than a Buddha.
– But the important fact is that if one is a Sotapanna, no bad kamma seed leading to a birth in lower realms will not be effective. In effect, they lose potency when one attains the Sotapanna stage.b) There no traceable “beginning” to the pancakkhandha. We have to remember that each living being (whether human, deva, preta, any animal including amoeba) has its own pancakkhandha. Pancakkhandha is infinite for a given living being. Panca upadanakkhandha is a tiny, tiny fraction of it.
@Embodied: Your question is not clear.
Satipatthana is simply being aware of whether defiled or unwise thoughts are arising, and to stop them.
If good thoughts arise one should cultivate those; this part involves cultivating panna.
By the way, what needs to be done is closely associated with the satara Sammappadhäna, which is conventionally translated as “Four Supreme Efforts”, in the 37 Factors of Enlightenment:
1. Prevent immoral qualities that have not yet arisen from arising.
2. Abandon immoral qualities that have arisen.
3. Maintain and cultivate moral qualities that have arisen.
4. Initiate moral qualities that have not yet arisen.See, “Two Versions of 37 Factors of Enlightenment“.
As always, dasa akusala are the measuring stick. Of course, cultivating wisdom (panna) also involves learning Dhamma concepts like Tilakkhana is included.
So, the only skill needed is determination and knowledge.
That is true. But all these can also be thought of as how one responds to a given situation based on one’s gati. However, the situation can change one’s gati, if one does not have a “solid set of morals”.
This is true even outside the practice.
For example, when two people get married, they will both HAVE TO change their gati to some extent to accommodate the other person. At least, in successful marriages it happens.
But if one develops “moral gati” that will help in any of those cases you mentioned. For example, in the first example of the couple, if they learn Dhamma and have that common and good focus that will be an added benefit, because not only will they common gati, but they will be ‘moral gati“.
In other words, two people with bad moral getting together and starting dealing drugs, they will both end up in a bad situation eventually.
So, there are many ways to think about this. You are right. These are the “real meditation topics”. But one thing is certain: A person with a “solid, unshakable, set of morals” can change gati of those around him/her, and thus change their nibbatti lakkhana!
Yes. That is true.
Nibbatti lakkhana is basically the blueprint for the building up of any sankata. One is born with a blueprint, but IT CAN BE CHANGED.
As Johnny said, it can be changed by changing one’s gati. This works not only for one’s own body (part of the rupakkhandha or the matter aggregate), but also for one’s thoughts (which have the other four mental kandhas). This is a good meditation topic and one can get deeper into the subject.
Just take one’s body. Even though one will not be able to change the basic features like skin color, height, etc, one will be definitely able to change one’s health, including the brain function (and avoid diseases like Alzeimer’s). I know this by experience. Even though it is hard to get rid of my back problems (I always think about the fact that the Buddha himself had back problems; so such bad vipaka are definitely hard for us to avoid), I am in better condition than I was even 15 20 years ago. I used to take sleeping pills (not strong ones, just mild ones) when I was working. I have not taken one for many years now. I hardly get a headache or flu even though I have never taken a “flu shot”. These are small things, but they make a big difference in one’s state of mind and well being.
Even mental aggregates, one should be able to see the difference after starting on the Path for a few months. You don’t react to things the same way. Your life becomes much more simple, and less burdened.
Each thought is a sankata. A thought arises due to an external stimulus, and those initial thoughts (mano sankhara) depend TOTALLY on one’s gati. And the way to change one’s gati is to change one’s vaci sankhara (especially the part of talking to oneself) just after realizing what those initial and automatic mano sankhara are. I have discussed this in several recent posts. This is the basis of Anapana and Satipatthana meditation.
@Inflib: I just revised that post to add the following:
“In the rebirth process, we all have been born a man and a woman innumerable times. If I remember correctly, the Bodhisatva was a woman when she started cultivating paramita to becomes Buddha. But at some point (probably after getting niyata vivarana), he had been a male.
There is a slight difference between male and female. That may not be politically correct to say these days, but that is the reality. One is a man or a woman because one has cultivated the corresponding gati. No matter how many laws are passed, the military is always going to be dominated by men, for example.”
By the way, what I wrote about Ven. Sarputta missing a prediction about who was going to win a war under a another topic, that incident is also mentioned in this post.
Inflib said: “So, the energy is more dense (vaci sankhara rupa) as opposed to mano sankhara that come unconsciously.” AND
“For example, I look at the card and say “four” in my head, in an instant she tells me it’s a “four”. On the other hand, if I just look at the card w/o speaking it in my head, she doesn’t know.”That makes sense. When you consciously think “it is a “four”, that makes it a vaci sankhara, versus just seeing that it is a “four” which is a mano sankhara.
Regarding y not‘s question: “What of future events?”. Some people do get premonitions (strong feelings) of what is about to happen in the future. That may or may not turn out to be correct. However, for some, chances of “getting it right” are higher.
Unless it is a “niyata vivarana” that a Buddha gives to a Bodhisatva, no future event can be predicted with certainty.
For example, once there was going to be a war between two factions (say X and Y). Bhikkhus asked Ven. Sariputta who was going to win the war, and some months later his prediction (X) turned out to be wrong. The bhikkhus went to the Buddha and asked why Ven. Sariputta could not get it right. The Buddha said that Ven. Sariputta was right at THAT TIME, that X were going to win the war based on the conditions at THAT TIME. But since then conditions changed.
@Embodied:
Question 1: Yes.Question 2: “there’s a lot of people refusing to do immoral things to gain sense pleasures, does that make them Sotapannas or on the way to become it?”
This is tricky. Of course most people would not like to do such immoral things.
However, if one has not not attained Sotapanna stage, one MAY make a “bad decision” IF the temptation is HIGH.We all have heard about “good citizens” being charged for rape and murder especially. Even if they thought they had “things under control”, they apparently did not.
These decisions are not CONSCIOUS under such stressful conditions. Split-second decisions are based on one’s gati. So, unless one had truly removed “apayagami gati“, such things are possible to happen.
It is always a struggle in the mind between picking between a sense pleasure and (possible) bad consequences. The perceived value of sense pleasures decrease and the fear of bad consequences increase as one starts comprehending Tilakkhana. At some point a definite boundary is placed where one’s mind will NOT make a bad decision, no matter how tempting the sense pleasure is.
Welcome to the forum, drs8!
“..when this attachment to the body lessens to a degree, you become Sotapanna. And when this attachment lessens more and that is Sakrudagami. And once the whole attachment to the body completely gone, this person becomes Anagami.”
Of course this is wrong.Even to attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to remove not only sakkaya ditthi, but also, vicikicca and silabbata paramasa; see, “Sakkāya Ditthi is Personality (Me) View?“.
Furthermore, contemplation of the 32 body parts only helps partially in removing sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya or “sath” + “kaya” means one takes not only one’s body to be “good” but also one’s actions in accumulating things in this world to be “good” and “beneficial”. Kaya can mean body and actions.
We can also see this clearly in the Satipatthana sutta. Kāyānupassanā is only one of four anupassana, and contemplation of the 32 body parts is only part of Kāyānupassanā; see “Maha Satipatthana Sutta“.
One becomes a Sotapanna by comprehending the fruitlessness of doing “apayagami immoral things” to gain sense pleasures. Then one has reduced kamaccanda, vyapada, and moha to kama raga, patigha, and avijja levels.
One becomes a Sakadagami by attenuating kama raga (specifically removing vatthu kama) and patigha. Then one becomes an Anagami by removing all kama raga and patigha. In both stages, avijja is also reduced.
Finally, one becomes an Arahant by removing the higher five samyojana of rupa raga , arupa raga, mana, uddacca, and avijja; see, “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process“.
So, it is easy to see that one cannot even become a Sotapanna by just doing the contemplation the 32 body parts.
I am not familiar with the Thai Forest tradition or Ven Ajahn Mun’s biography. Are you certain that this is all they do (contemplation the 32 body parts)?
Welcome to the forum, Peter!
Kalama sutta actually does not have any deep meanings than what is actually stated. But it is critical one for one to get to started on the Path.
I was just giving the gist of it. But I don’t think what I stated is in contradiction with either of the translations you quoted. Both translations give the basic idea. The Access to Insight translation could have been better, if they did not try to just translate word-by-word.
In the sutta, the Buddha kept asking the Kalamas to put themselves in the “receiving end” and to see how they would feel if such immoral actions are done to them: This is to basically to make them understand why one needs to stay away from dasa akusala. His questions were mostly on the obvious ones: killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc.
Then he asked them to compare those conclusions with various teachings to come to one’s own conclusions, not just because even the Buddha says they are bad. That is the way to decide which teaching is correct. He said not to just accept teachings via oral transmission, lineage, testament, canonical authority, etc. If one uses the above technique, one does not need to “buy into” any one of such teachings.
This is what I always try to emphasize. One HAS TO start practicing Buddha Dhamma with a focus on dasa akusala. That is the foundation.
At the end of the sutta the Buddha emphasizes that if one avoided those akusala (immoral deeds), one would be safe in all four possible situations regarding wrong views.Even if one did not believe in kamma vipaka or paralowa or paro loko (of gandhabbas) –which belong to the 10 types of micca ditthi – one would not be in peril. But IF THEY WERE TO HOLD, then one would fine too. This is an important point especially today, because there are many who do not believe in rebirth or even kamma vipaka.
However, the key point that is not specifically stated in the sutta is that, when one starts abiding by those obvious “good actions”, at some point one will start realizing that kamma vipaka have to be experienced in future lives. Then at some point one would be getting rid of such wrong views like not believing in rebirth (10 types of micca ditthi).
Only when one has removed all ten types of wrong views that one will be able to go deeper and understand concepts like Tilakkahana (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
Many people try to understand deeper concepts like Tilakkhana without paying much attention to avoiding those basics. Mind is a very complex entity. It is contaminated by dasa akusala, and that leads to an agitated mind. Of course, one cannot even see how agitated one’s mind is, until one sees the relief (niramisa sukha) that is gained by staying away from dasa akusala.
The bottom line is that Kalama Sutta is actually one of the simplest suttas. It helps one to get started on the mundane eightfold path, before starting on the Noble Eightfold Path; see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart“. But it is a critical sutta, because without that foundation, one will be wasting one’s time just reading about deeper concepts.
Deeper concepts need to be COMPREHENDED not just MEMORIZED, and that REQUIRES a mind relatively free of dasa akusala, especially the 10 types of micca ditthi.
I really don’t know how many people actually “get this point”, but I keep emphasizing it at every opportunity.
@Embodied: As far as I understand, Brahman and Brahma (or more accurately Maha Brahma) are the same.
Of course the Buddha has talked about them. This is the same Baka Brahma mentioned in the Brahmanimantanika Sutta; see # 12 in “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“.
Those Brahmas (and ancient Hindu yogis) thought that life in the Brahma realm is forever. So, they consider getting to that Brahma realm via jhanas is the same as attaining Nirvana (Sanskrit word for Nibbana) or the “deathless state”.
That is because they all do not have the capability to see past lives beyond the lifetime of that Brahma realm.
Tobias said: “At night I woke up and suddenly found myself in outer space surrounded by flower blossoms and turning around..”
Is it possible that you were actually out there in space, with the gandhabba body?
In my case, I am positive that did not happen. I could open my eyes and see that I was in my room. Then I closed my eyes and was able to see it again. So, I never had the gandhabba coming out.
By the way, your description reminded me of the accounts of Robert Monroe in his book, “Journeys Out of the Body”. He has written several books about his “out of body experiences”.
I hope these discussions would not deviate out attention from focusing on Dhamma. But it is good to know that such experiences may happen. I never strive for any such experiences. If they happen, they happen.
Furthermore, it may never happen to some people. So, this is NOT to be taken as a REQUIREMENT. I hesitated to write about my experience because of this. We must remember that there were Arahants, who never even had a jhanic experience even; see, for example, the Susima Sutta.
By the way, Sutta Central has changed its sutta format. I liked the previous format, but may be they will make this better with time.
Johnny said: “Do future events appear like vivid imagery in your mind?”
I can describe a recent experience of mine to give an idea of probably what Donna (inflib) sees. May be Donna can describe the difference in what she “sees” and what I describe below.
I was meditating with my eyes closed. All of a sudden, I started “seeing” a whirlpool. It was not a static picture. It was as if I was seeing a rotating whirlpool, with the water spinning. Then the scene evolved into a flowing mass of water. It was crystal clear, even though I had my eyes closed. That was at the end of last December. Since then I have seen the same thing twice. I don’t know what that is about (and why I keep seeing the same thing).
With that experience, now I can relate to Waharaka Thero’s experiences and Donna’s. You actually “see” things with your eyes closed. It is much more vivid and much more “real” compared to dreaming. It was as if I was looking at a real whirlpool, and then seeing a flowing mass of water (I did not see anything else other than water). Waharaka Thero, for example, had the capability to just focus on someone’s house (far away), and “see” the house as it is, for example.
This must be how gandhabbas also “see” things. Many people who have described their Out of Body Experiences (OBE) must have “seen” their own bodies from the above this way; usually that happens in heart operations when the gandhabba is “forced out” due to stress. Remember that most of these people are not even Buddhists.
Good question, Embodied.
#1 is correct. Atta can mean “truth”, “having full protection”, “having essence”, etc.
– Of course, anatta is the opposite.Regarding #2: Attā (with a long a at the end) does not mean “me’. It is just a “person”. It is normally used in sentence to say “this person”.
– There is no word anattā (with a long a at the end), as the opposite of that attā.
