Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

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    • #16636

      In the post on ‘Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda’, under #7, An Anāgami has removed kāma rāga, but still has kāma, i.e., likes them somewhat., does this mean that an Anagami still has liking for sense pleasures, even though they are not strong enough to lead to a bhava in kama loka?

      Is this kama linked to the higher five samyojanas in any way?

      One more question: In the days of the Buddha, did people listening to His discourses go from anariya to Anagami or Arahant right away, bypassing the Sotapanna stage? I may have read something about this before elsewhere.

      Thank you very much in advance for your answers to my questions.

    • #16639

      Yes. There is a difference between kama and kama raga. There may be a trace of kama left in an Anagami, but that is not enough to lead to a birth in kama loka.

      That trace of kama is likely to be associated with rupa raga (and avijja) which are two samyojanas removed at the Arahant stage.

      You asked: ” In the days of the Buddha, did people listening to His discourses go from anariya to Anagami or Arahant right away, bypassing the Sotapanna stage?”
      Yes. There are many accounts in the Tipitaka, of people attaining any of the four stages of magga phala while listening to a desana or even a single verse.
      – But that always happens in the sequence: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant. It is just that even all four can take place within a short time, ending in the Arahant stage. So, it is not really bypassing any intermediate stage.

    • #45474

      Could rupa raga also mean raga for niramisa sukha? 

      It’s taught that Anagami still has rupa raga and arupa rage, if someone didn’t cultivate jhana’s and they attained the anagami stage. Besides raga for jhanic states, are there other ways of understanding what rupa raga is or for an anagami besides raga for jhanic states, are there other rupa raga an anagami might have? I tried searching the site, but not able to find much information relating to anagami and rupa raga.   

    • #45475

      “Could rupa raga also mean raga for niramisa sukha?”

      • Yes. Those who cultivate rupavacara jhana have rupa raga (and experience niramisa sukha associated with such jhana). 

      “It’s taught that Anagami still has rupa raga and arupa rage, if someone didn’t cultivate jhana’s and they attained the anagami stage. Besides raga for jhanic states, are there other ways of understanding what rupa raga is or for an anagami besides raga for jhanic states, are there other rupa raga an anagami might have?”

      One can remove kama raga and get to the Anagami stage without cultivating jhana. P.S. “Rupa raga” includes jhanic sukha, but is not restricted to that; “attachment to Dhamma” is also included in rupa raga.Some in the days of the Buddha could not get to the Arahant stage, because of their “attachment to Dhamma.” That is why the Buddha said one must also give up Dhamma at the end (only when close to the Arahant stage.)

      • Those in kama loka have kama raga; those in rupa loka (or have transcended kama loka, like an Anagami) would have rupa and arupa raga left. Of course, many rupavacara Brhamas have NOT REMOVED kama raga but have temporarily transcended the kama loka; they will be reborn in kama loka at the end of that Brahma lifetime.
      • Rupa and arupa raga are PERMANENTLY removed only at the Arahant stage. This stage is “niramisatara sukha” which is not a vedana, but “Nibbanic bliss.” See “Nirāmisa Sutta (SN 36.31).”
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    • #45478

      – “P.S. “Rupa raga” includes jhanic sukha, but is not restricted to that; “attachment to Dhamma” is also included in rupa raga”

      Thank you !!! I was actually considering / thinking of that. 


    • #45479

      Can rupa raga also mean that one has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” of jhana’s.

      Or for an Anagami besides raga for the Buddha dhamma, also has raga for dhammā? Like the “bearing” / “experiencing” of the Buddha dhamma.

    • #45481

      Yes. As long as one is not an Arahant, there is raga (raga anusaya) for some type of dhammā.

      • In the case of rupa raga (for an Anagami), there is an expectation to “live the life of a rupavacara Brahma” even if it may not be a “craving.” For example, there is a sutta about a bhikkhu who became an Anagami and stopped cultivating the path. When the Buddha asked why, he said he knew he would attain Arahanthood in the Brahma realm. 
      • Buddha Dhamma also belongs to “this world.” That is why one MUST also give up any liking/craving to learn more Dhamma when close to the Arahant stage (and not before that.) There cannot be ANY overlap between “this world of 31 realms” and Nibbana; they are mutually exclusive, i.e., there is no overlap. There is also a sutta that gives the account of a person who thought he had given up all attachment to the world; when he died, he was born a Brahma and came to the Buddha to ask why that happened. The Buddha explained that he had not given up his attachment to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha and came to visit Jetavanaramaya until the very end of his life. 
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    • #45493

      I read this post on ‘Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda’ quite a while back, and reread it after reading this thread.

      From this, I take kāma to mean “liking kāma guna somewhat”, residual liking left in an anagami.

      If this is so, is it also correct to say this about the stronger forms of liking:

      kāma rāga = rāga for kāma guna
      kāmaccanda = ccanda (iccha + anda) for kāma guna

      Thank you!


    • #45500

      I just read the post in question. It needs to be rewritten. 

      • I will do that after posting the next regular post. Hopefully, I can get to it within a few days and I will refer to it here. 
    • #45536

      It seems that I need to write a post to discuss kama guna. After that, I will revise the post in question accordingly.

      • Thanks to Lang for bringing this up. By the way, what Lang pointed out is fine.
      • But kama guna can be explained in more detail to provide further insights.
    • #45631
      Tobi-Wan Kenobi

      Hello Lal, 
      this post was written because I wanted to know what jhanic sukha means. I was not familiar with the term until then. 
      “P.S. “Rupa raga” includes, but is not limited to, jhanic sukha; ” Adherence to the Dhamma” is also contained in the Rupa Raga” 
      To analyze Ruparaga and Kārmaguna, I will use the approach via the Jhānas. 
      Even at the time of the Buddha, other ascetic traditions considered any kind of pleasure as something to be avoided, but after performing painful asceticism, such as that performed by the 5 ascetics before the Buddha’s awakening, the Bodhisattva discovered pleasure, even a certain type of pleasure, which is an important mental and physical factor in purifying and freeing the mind from attachment. 

      It was at this time that the Bodhisatta became aware. That the end of the spiritual path is achieved through pleasure and not pain, which involves a certain type of physical pleasure and spiritual joy.

      However, everyone agreed that sensual pleasures must be abandoned. To get to liberation. 
      Meditative jhānic states with breathing meditation only to suppress sensory perception should be avoided. Since they are temporary. 
      Jhānic states should be achieved through knowledge, wisdom (pañña).  
      Whether with breathing meditation or wisdom, the misunderstanding that is not present in the experience of the Jhānas is the movement of desire, the very inner movement in which sensory objects grasp and captivate the mind. 

      Both terms Bhavana and Jhāna mean meditation, in the deeper sense Bhavana means cultivation and Jhāna means immersion that is produced by strong concentration/samadhi. 
      Kāma and Kāmaguna as well as Rupa Raga are related and are always related to the Rupa and Kāma Loka. Kāmaguna is always dependent on the Kāmi stage of rebirth and also anusaya, which makes Kāmaguna seem subjective. 
      In order to enter the first Jhāna, one must clearly recognize the danger in Kāma. The practitioner, when he enters the first Jhāna and dwells in it, is indeed separated from the attachment and desire for sensual pleasures, that is, the basic tendency of ordinary perception (M I 504), and not from sensory experience. The separation from desire and attachment to sensual pleasures and other unwholesome states of mind must result from insight into the nature of Tilakkhana, i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta, and understanding of the four noble truths. The desire for sensual pleasures is a basic tendency of an un-liberated mind that sees sensual pleasures as satisfying and desirable. 
      I have not been able to find anything in any description of the first Jhāna that mentions that one is separated from the Indriyas, the āyatanas associated with the five senses, or from the Kāma-Guṇas, so it is safe to say that one assumes that one is cut off from the sensory experience during this period by a deepening of the mind (samadhi). Kāmaguna are the five objects of the senses, they are the cause of the emergence of desire, hatred and delusion. Kāmaguna are the qualities of sensual pleasure, they exist with strong and weak qualities that can lead to attachment, a kind of natural subjective bondage and influence on sensory experiences from Mara’s world.
      Chat GPT:(M I 504
      The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta (The Great Discourse on the Basics of Mindfulness), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 10th speech in this collection and begins on page 504 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12. 
      In this sutta, the Buddha teaches the four basics of mindfulness: the body, the feelings, the mind, and the spiritual objects. He explains how to observe them in meditation and how they lead to the realization of the four noble truths12. 
      END ChatGPT 

      Binoculars Analogy: Meditation is like using binoculars. The binoculars are the mind and the object in our case is a “bhikkhu explaining a Dhamma concept”. Listening carefully to the bhikkhu is like pointing binoculars (mind) at an object, the more attentive we are, the sharper the image in binoculars becomes. We focus with the adjusting wheel on the binoculars, up to the point where the image is totally sharp, that is Samadhi. The eight magnification levels that binoculars possess are the Jhāna steps. Each level also has a better movement stabilizer, which is shown by calming the mind the higher one is on the Jhāna level. 
      We only need the first 4 stages for a Dhamma concept. By zooming in on the object, we let the mind in this case cling to the Dhamma concept. Which causes the bad Ditthis to dissolve and we understand the concept clearly. Unpacking the binoculars and removing the protective caps is equivalent to removing the obstacles (nīvaraṇas). 
      To reach the first jhanas. The mind must also be cleansed of the obstacles (Nīvaraṇas). Jhānic sukha has an important role on the path to liberation and it also helps to overcome the craving for sensual pleasures (kāma raga), which is one of the ten fetters (samyojana). It prepares the mind for the development of wisdom (pañña), which arises from insight into the three characteristics of all phenomena (anicca, dukkha, anatta).

      cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe (Lal, how would you translate this phrase that occurs in many suttas in connection with meditation/mindfulness?) 
      Suttas:  The Sampasādanīyasutta (DN 28) / Devadahasutta (MN101)   and many more. 
      The five “nīvaraṇas” hinder the clear recognition of the nature of experience, which hinder the acquisition of knowledge and insight. There are five: (i) sensual desire (kāmacchanda), (ii) hatred (vyāpāda), (iii) sluggishness and drowsiness (thīna-middha), (iv) excitability and fear (uddhaccakukkucca), and (v) doubt (vicikicchā). It is impossible to enter the trance states or attain liberation if these obstacles are not overcome. A mind that is not cleansed of these obstacles cannot see clearly. 
      Jhānic sukha is a term that refers to the happiness or joy experienced in the states of deepening (jhāna). Jhāna are meditative states in which the mind becomes calm, focused, and clear. There are four subtle jhānas (rupa jhāna) and four formless jhānas (arupa jhāna), which differ in their factors and objects. 
      Jhānic sukha is one of the factors of the first jhānas, along with initial and sustained thinking (vitakka and vicara), joy (piti) and one-pointedness or concentration (ekaggata). Sukha is the psychological counterpart of piti, the physical feeling of bliss or intoxication. Sukha is a feeling of contentment, well-being and gratitude. You don’t need anything more than what prevails in the present moment. One is free from physical or mental pain (dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ) or pleasure (sukhaṃ somanassaṃ) associated with the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmūpasaṃhitaṃ) 
      Jhānic sukha disappears in the second jhāna, where only piti and ekaggata remain. 
      In the third jhāna, piti also disappears, leaving only ekaggata and a feeling of equanimity (upekkha). 
      In the fourth jhāna, upekkha also disappears, and only ekaggata remains. 

      The formless jhānas no longer have any factors, but only different objects: infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception.

      Jhānicpīti (spiritual joy) and Sukha (physical pleasures) are the key elements for deciphering in order to understand the path to liberation. These two factors (nīrāmisa pīti and nīrāmisa sukha) that characterize the first and second jhāna (pīti is also one of the initial factors of the third jhāna), pleasure and joy are thus the factors that involve neither desire nor attachment. On the contrary, they can only arise by encountering the world of phenomena without attachment. When one recognizes the true nature of Tilakkhana of phenomena, that is, the unreliability, fruitlessness and lack of substantiality of all phenomena, Jhānicpīti and Sukha are born. 

      In addition, it is the attainment of jhānicpīti and sukha that allows the mind to completely abandon the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmacchanda) and the latent tendency (anusaya) to seek this kind of pleasure. 
      Thus, the teachings of the Buddha Gotama were a rejection of asceticism and also of other ideas and practices, such as those taught by Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta. 
      However, Jhānic pīti (and sukha) are not cut off from sensory experience independently of the five sensory fields of sensual pleasure, since they arise from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. When one recognizes the danger and true nature of sensual pleasures, one can enjoy experiences without unwholesome states of mind such as clinging, aversion, etc. From this it can be deduced that sensory contact can take place without desire, pleasure and aversion, even before reaching awakening and over a longer period of time and not just as a momentary experience.   
      I would argue that this happens during the experience of the Jhānic states. The experience of phenomena without these falsifications of the mind enables the mind to find pleasure, not in sensual pleasures, but by recognizing the true nature of the phenomena of this world with its 31 realms. 
      Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are spirit-made feelings that result from attachment to or aversion to a sensory object. They are not the result of kamma vipāka, but of taṇhā (thirst) and upādāna (clinging). 
      For example, when one sees a friend, one may have a feeling of joy, which is a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When one sees an enemy, one can have a feeling of hatred, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When you see someone you don’t know, you can have a neutral feeling, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. 
      Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are mind-made feelings that are produced with the five aggregates “rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa” with PS. We do not cling to “physical objects”, but to our “spiritual impressions” or “rūpakkhandha”, which are stored as pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta.

      Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā” are only part of the more general statement “saḷāyatana paccayā phasso; phassapaccayā vedanā what Samphassa-jā-vēdanā is… 

      In my opinion, the first four Jhānas are capable of “Samphassa-jā-vēdanā” to delete/overwrite these storages, which are based on the three types of vedanā and are stored in the pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta. 
      Thus, the first Jhāna points the way to awakening/ahrant-hood and awakening is the elimination of Gati, Anusaya, asava, Tanha….which includes Samphassa-jā-vēdanā. So Jhānas are used to remove impurities and are related to Ja-vedanā. 
      • The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsaccakasutta (The Greater Discourse to Saccaka), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Discourses). It is the 36th speech in this collection and begins on page 246 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12. 
      • In this sutta, the Buddha tells of his quest for enlightenment, his struggles with the five obstacles and the five aggregates, his attainment of the four jhānas and the four noble truths, and his challenge to Saccaka, the son of a nigaṇṭha (Jaina), who tries to refute him12. 
      End ChatGPT” 
      According to the Jain ascetics; 
      Pleasure cannot be gained by pleasure; Joy can be gained through pain (sukhena sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ, dukkhena kho sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ). For if joy could be obtained through pleasure, then King Seniya Bimbisāra of Magadha would attain joy, as he dwells in greater joy than Venerable Gotama.

      The Sutta Cūḷadukkhakkhandhasutta (The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of Suffering), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 14th speech in this collection  
      But the Buddha told Klar that he remains in bliss longer and is therefore more fortunate than the Jain ascetics. So it is up to Jhānicpīti and sukha, which goes hand in hand with the calmness of the mind. But this only applies in the Kama and Rupa areas, where the beings have sensory pleasure. 
      However, jhānicpīti (and sukha) are independent of the five strands of sensory pleasure (but not cut off from sensory experience), since it arises from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. Jhāna are like tools, used incorrectly they do more harm than good. 
      Jhānas 5 to 8 are certainly to be used for the removal of the “attachment to the formlessness Arupa Loka”. 
      There is no need to be afraid if one has cultivated Anariya Jhānas. Since, in my opinion, Jhāna is not cultivated, but used to cultivate certain Citta, Cetasika and pañcakkhandha, which only becomes noticeable in the Pathisandhi moment. Cultivation without proper purification and understanding of Dhamma is therefore the use of Anariya Jhāna <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
      So, with the right understanding of Pure Dhamma, we can free ourselves from these attachments and states of mind. In which, with the help of the Jhānas, we cultivate the right Dhamma/Dhammā, which reduces the attachment to this world with its 31 realms, which even leads to the detachment of the Buddhadhamma when attaining Ahranthood.

      Not quite. 
      The Buddha surprisingly said; “Even if a noble disciple has insight into the true nature of sensual pleasures, this insight is not sufficient to make the mind feel disillusioned and disenchanted by sensory satisfaction and to abandon aversion to its transgression or abandonment. It is not enough to know how things really are in order to achieve liberation.

      (SN 35.28

      That is, “wisdom” (paññā) and “clear vision” (sudiṭṭhaṃ) of (experience) “as it is” (yathābhūtaṃ) cannot completely transform the mind. 
      According to this Sutta, the cognitive ability is not sufficient to eradicate the tendencies of desire. We need the arūpa samāpatti, those who are considered to be the four recesses of the Incorporeal Sphere. They are an extension of the four depressions of the Fine Body Sphere (rūpa-jjhāna) and are sometimes referred to as the fifth to eighth depressions. The arūpa samāpatti are achieved through meditation on the absence of physicality and form, leading to a state of complete calm and stillness. They dissolve the “I” illusion and are seen as a means of overcoming suffering and achieving Nibbāna.

      Could you say that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?

      Could it be that with Jhana Bhavana, we are trying to emit/produce a “pabhassara citta”?

      I hope I’m not so far off the mark and “I’ve hit the nail on the head” as we say. In any case, I hope for a lot of comments whether negative or positive, but even the negative ones will have a positive effect. To get more insight into the Dhamma that has not been heard in this world before.

    • #45635

      It is necessary to understand the sequential approach for recovering the “pabhassara citta” (i.e., get to Nibbana).

      Please read the new post “True Happiness Is the Absence of Suffering” carefully. We need to fully understand it (by further discussions and via future posts) before discussing kama guna, etc, and how to get to the Anagami stage; see below.

      One way to look at the step-by-step process of recovering the “pabhassara citta” is the following. 

      1. That “pabhassara citta” is covered by layers of defilements of raga, dosa, and moha (similar to a gem in the ground may be covered with layers of dirt.)

      • We must remove those layers of dirt gradually to get to the “pabhassara citta.” 
      • One way to look at it is to use the ten samyojana as ten layers of dirt.

      2. The first three layers on the top of the gem correspond to three samyojana of sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa

      • Removal of those three layers is done ONLY by comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
      • One must learn the correct versions and fully understand them. A massive amount of raga, dosa, and moha is removed from the mind by UNDERSTANDING the correct worldview. This is the FIRST STEP.
      • That will free a mind from rebirths in the apayas. 
      • One becomes a Sotapanna upon removing those three layers or the three samyojana.

      3. The second step involves two layers of kama raga and patigha.

      • Those layers are removed by practicing what is learned in #2 above. That is practicing Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
      • That is the hardest SECOND STEP. 
      • A Soatapanna has to go through the Sakadagami stage and then get to the Anagami stage. That will make a mind free of rebirths in kama loka (apayas, human realm, and six Deva realms) completely.  An Anagami can be reborn only in a rupavacara Brahma realm.
      • Anariya yogis cultivate anariya jhana and are reborn in Brahma realms (by skipping the realms in the kama loka) ONLY in the NEXT rebirth. But they do that without breaking ANY of those five samyojana involved in #2 and #3. That means they don’t REMOVE defilements (raga, dosa, moha) but only SUPPRESS them temporarily. So, they can be reborn in the apayas in the future, i.e., they are not released from the apayas.
      • Understanding kama guna and getting rid of them (and thus becoming free of rebirths in the kama loka) happens in this SECOND STEP. 

      4. Last five of the ten samyojana are removed at the Arahant stage. Then the mind will be free of rebirths in the arupavacara Brahma realms, also. That is the THIRD STEP.

      5. Therefore, it is essential to get through the first step before being ABLE TO cultivate Ariya jhana. It is useless to cultivate anariya jhana.

      • The key to getting through the first step is to remove sakkaya ditthi, the first samyojana. That will automatically remove the other two: vicikicca and silabbata paramasa.
      • Removal of sakkaya ditthi means comprehending the anicca nature. 
      • I highly recommend re-reading the recent post mentioned at the top of the comment. That is the basis of a series of new posts where I will discuss another way to understand the anicca nature” of this world and remove sakkaya ditthi.

      6. Even for those who may have gotten to the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages, understanding the new series will be helpful in making further progress, i.e., how to cultivate Ariya jhana and remove the two samyojana of kama raga and patigha.

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    • #45645

      Tobi, in his comment above, stated: “..this post was written because I wanted to know what jhanic sukha means.”

      “Jhanic sukha” is explained in the post “Nirāmisa Sukha.” 


      Also, I copied my above comment into a new thread, “Post on ‘True Happiness Is the Absence of Suffering’” because that comment is more relevant to the new post.

      • If anyone has questions about that comment, please post in the new link.
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    • #45646

      Greetings Tobi,

      • “Kāmaguna are the five objects of the senses, they are the cause of the emergence of desire, hatred and delusion.”

      From my current belief and understanding ofKāmagunait’s way more than just the five objects of the senses. Some of the idea’s I have in mind right now regarding Kāmaguna is that the explanation of it can get pretty detailed and deep. It’s possible that I could be wrong or mistaken about some of these idea’s, but I’ll be sharing what I have in mind regarding Kāmaguna for others scrutiny whenever I can finish typing out what I would like to share.   


      • “According to the Jain ascetics; Pleasure cannot be gained by pleasure; Joy can be gained through pain (sukhena sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ, dukkhena kho sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ).”

      I could be mistaken about this, but actually from what I currently think of Kāmaguna is that pleasure can be gained from pleasure, at least in regards to Kāmaguna. I haven’t thought of the other pleasures like jhana’s, but at a later time, I’ll elaborate more on this since I would like others feedback. So far in my mind . . . it makes sense . . . but we’ll see.   


      • “Could it be that with Jhana Bhavana, we are trying to emit/produce a “pabhassara citta”?

      Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, but from my current understanding, we’re not trying to “emit/produce” a pabhassara citta since pabhassara citta are produced with every citta. The thing is that we never experience or can experience a pabhassara citta unless one is an Arahant.  Pabhassara citta are the 7 universal cetiska’s, but the citta get’s contaminated due to our anusaya’s or from the evolution of  citta. That’s why or at least one of the reason’s why we can’t experience a pabhassara citta even though it’s produced with every citta.

      This post can give you more details and explanation.

      Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga


      • “Could you say that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?”

       Can you clarify for me what do you exactly mean by Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?

    • #45650
      Tobi-Wan Kenobi

      Sorry TGS for not getting back to you until now but the time difference and work.
      “Can it be said that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?”
      Can you explain to me exactly what you mean by Kamaguna being a touch of Mara?

      I think. There are guna as, buddha guna, dhamma guna and sangha guna. These are all qualities that take us out of samsara. Kamagunna, on the other hand, are qualities that keep us trapped in samsara. Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna. Since Kamaguna is subjective and presents itself as a natural law in the background, I formulated it somewhat superficially.

    • #45669

      Hi Tobi, 

      No need to apologize, I totally understand and I’m probably in the similar boat. 

      • “Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna”.

      I’m not sure if you had a chance to come across what I mentioned in the thread “Post on Kama guna – Origin of attachment (Tanha)” relating to a connection made between Kama guna and Mara.

      “From Sakuṇagghisutta:

      Sakuṇagghisutta (SN 47.6)

      It teaches kāmaguṇa is the domain of Mara and cattāro satipaṭṭhānā is the domain of our fathers.” 

      What might be of interest to you is that besides the one connection that was made between kamaguna and Mara, in the last few days, I was able to make more connection between Kamaguna and Mara, I’ll definitely be sharing those connections at a later time. But currently, I’m working on writing out something that’s very important to me relating to kamaguna that I would like to present here for scrutiny and feedback to make sure what I have in mind is on the right track and is self consistent.

      So far, I might have only mentioned about 50% what I have in mind about kamaguna. Investigating into the teachings of kamaguna, Kāma or kāmā, kāmehi from the last few weeks and contemplating the connection between them has been an eye opening experience for me and realized how far, deep and detailed the connections can get / go. 

      You mentioned:

      • In my opinion, the first four Jhānas are capable of “Samphassa-jā-vēdanā” to delete/overwrite these storages

      Currently I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with this since I have not or currently contemplate what you mentioned, but very recently I came across something that I feel might be of interest to you and relate to what you have in mind. Thought I would share.

      MN 13 Mahādukkhakkhandhasutta

      “Ko ca, bhikkhave, vedanānaṁ assādo?

      Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”

      “And what is the gratification of feelings?

      It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.”

      All the best Tobi and same to everyone here and all other living beings in all the different directions. 

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    • #45675

      “Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna”.

      • The following thread that I just posted could be helpful: “Dasa Māra Senā (Mārasenā).”
      • Therefore, there is indeed a connection of Māra to kāma and kāmaguna.
    • #45680
      Tobi-Wan Kenobi
      1.  gain about Kamaguna, I don’t know what it depends on exactly, whether it is Dhātus or something else, but I know that all of us, you, I, etc., have created Kamaguna ourselves.
      2. Vatthu by Hadaya Vatthu rhymes with Dathu, so they have a connection.
        Likewise Jhana and Bhavana.
      3. Our spirit, i.e. Nama, exists through attachment to Rupa, in a manifestation as Namarupa, which in turn is in a generated manifestation through (abhi) -sankhara. 
        There is no universe, we live in Tilakkhana. Or rather, we live in anicca, dukkha, anatta. This should be understood. We are a manifestation within a manifestation and we continue to change this manifested entity.
      4. And one thing I predict is that if there is an awakening in the next few years, it will be a collective, on the land surrounded by the seas. Just a feeling from me.
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