Tagged: cuti patisandhi, dvihetuka, tihetuka
- This topic has 50 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 4 months ago by Lal.
June 21, 2018 at 3:27 am #16544
In the post Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gathi under #5 it says:
“…It is only those with tihetuka patisandhi can attain magga phala and attain Ariya jhanas in this life. Those with “dvihetuka patisandhi” lack in necessary wisdom (but this is NOT book knowledge); they can make progress and acquire necessary merits to have a future tihetuka patisandhi….”
Do I understand it right, that in order to attain magga phala one needs a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi to the new human or deva bhava? How can a being in the apayas have tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi?
June 21, 2018 at 7:18 am #16549
“Do I understand it right, that in order to attain magga phala one needs a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi to the new human or deva bhava?”
Yes. This is correct.
“How can a being in the apayas have tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi?”
- Dvihetuka and tihetuka normally mean one born with two or three of the three “good roots”: alobha, adosa, amoha. One with a tihetuka birth can attain magga phala, but one with a dvihetuka birth can only work towards getting a tihetuka birth and attaining magga phala in a future life.
- A being in the apayas (four lowest realms) would not have ANY of the three “good roots”. I think they are also called “ahetuka patisandhi“.
– One born with only one “good root” is called ahetuka, not because there are no roots, but it expresses the fact that they are “unfortunate”. They cannot understand Dhamma at all.
– While it is not possible to distinguish between tihetuka and dvihetuka persons, it is fairly easy to identify an “ahetuka” human. He/she is mentally (not physically) handicapped, and would have a very low IQ.
– Again, ahetuka here does not means “without causes”. Rather it means they have “bad hetu” (usually two of the three “bad hetu“: lobha, dosa, moha). So, the term “ahetuka patisandhi” for those in the apayas just means “no good hetu“.
June 21, 2018 at 8:18 am #16550SengKiatKeymaster
@Tobias G said: “Do I understand it right, that in order to attain magga phala one needs a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi to the new human or deva bhava? How can a being in the apayas have tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi?”
Please download “Chart of citta with Function, Feeling and Roots (Updated 22June2018)” to see for yourself the patisandi function which beings will be reborn:
(1) in woeful realm with “Unwholesome Rootless citta” (akusala ahetuka),
(2) in human realm with deformity with “Wholesome Rootless citta” (kusala ahetuka),
(3) in human or deva realm with “2 or 3 wholesome root citta”,
(4) in fine-material realm with “3 wholesome root citta” and
(5) in immaterial realm with “3 wholesome root citta”.
June 21, 2018 at 8:43 am #16551
Thanks to SengKiat and Lal!
There is this story about an Arahant, who likes to jumps over puddles. It is said, that he was a monkey in many lives before. It seems he came from the animal realm to the human bhava. Thus he could have only ahetuka patisandhi. Did he work within the human bhava towards tihetuka jathi and therefore attained magga phala?
June 21, 2018 at 8:59 am #16552
@Tobias: Cuti-patisandhi means the kammic energy for the previous bhava had been exhausted (cuti) and grasping (or attaching to) a new bhava.
So, that Arahant WAS in an animal bhava (monkey bhava), and was born a monkey many times and exhausted that kammic energy. Then at the cuti-patisandhi moment, human bhava was grasped. So, he attained Arahanthood after being born a human.
The sequence is: Monkey bhava (where he was born a monkey many times). When the kammic energy for the monkey bhava expired, human bhava grasped at the cuti-patisandhi MOMENT. Then he was born a human within that human bhava. Then he attained the Arahanthood.
June 21, 2018 at 9:04 am #16553
Yes, clear. He must have worked towards Nibbana within the human bhava. Thus he transformed his ahetuka patisandhi to a tihetuka jathi within the human bhava, right?
June 21, 2018 at 9:11 am #16554
I think the confusion is with ahetuka birth and ahetuka cuti-patisandhi.
Monkey bhava was an ahetuka birth DUE TO an ahetuka cuti-patisandhi from a PREVIOUS bhava.
Then a tihetuka cuti-patisandhi occurred when the kammic energy for the monkey bhava was exhausted, and then a tihetuka birth in the human realm took place.
I also revised my previous reply.
June 21, 2018 at 9:22 am #16555
Thanks. That means if an ahetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi took place while grasping the human bhava, it is not possible to reach magga phala within that whole bhava.
June 21, 2018 at 9:25 am #16556
” That means if an ahetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi took place while grasping the human bhava, it is not possible to reach magga phala within that whole bhava.”
That is correct.
June 22, 2018 at 5:04 am #16562
I think my deeper question is how a being in the apayas (e.g. an animal) can grasp a human bhava. The special question is how the monkey (the later Arahant) can grasp a tihetuka patisandhi with all three good roots (especially amoha). Where does tihetuka come from at the end of the animal bhava?
June 22, 2018 at 9:52 am #16563
Yes. it is a rare event. The probability is very low, but it is possible. The Buddha clearly said that coming out of the apayas is a rare event, but it does happen.
As we have discussed before, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, many strong kamma vipaka from the past come to the mind, and one is selected based on the state of the mind at that moment. It is possible that an animal may have had a strong good kamma vipaka from the past.
– There is a sutta about a frog who was listening to a desana by the Buddha. The frog was crushed unknowingly by a person’s walking stick, and it was born instantaneously in a deva realm. This deva, called Manduka deva, then realized how he was born in the deva world, and came back to listen to the same desana which was still in progress. The frog of course could not understand the desana, but his state of the mind (due the soothing voice of the Buddha) enabled him to grasp a deva bhava, based on a strong past good kamma.
Another possibility in this particular case is that it is only mentioned about a monkey bhava from the past. It does not need to be the bhava just before the human bhava when the Arahanthood was attained. It is possible, for example, that there was a dvihetuka human bhava in between the monkey bhava and the last human bhava where the Arahanthood was realized.
June 22, 2018 at 10:21 am #16564
- “at the cuti-patisandhi moment, many strong kamma vipaka from the past come to the mind, and one is selected BASED ON THE STATE OF THE MIND AT THAT MOMENT” –
How great is the danger here of a bad kamma vipaka coming to the fore at that moment even when one’s attention during life, and especially throughout the last years of that life, had been directed to contemplation on sanna(pl.)leading to good kamma vipaka?
From what I understand from the posts ‘the cow at the front of the queue at the gate’ will ‘present itself’ first, and one will grasp that. But what are the chances that a bad kamma vipaka from the past all of a sudden ‘jumps the queue’, as it were, and ousts the one at the gate?If that happens, will one automatically NOT grasp that?..and waits until the one originally at the front again, or another good kamma vipaka, presents itself?
Ever so grateful
June 22, 2018 at 11:07 am #16565
This is a complex issue. As we know analysis of kamma is one of the “unthinkables” (acinteyya). What that means is a human (other than a Buddha) will never be able to COMPLETELY sort out what happens in a given situation. But we can understand general trends.
Only clear-cut is an anantariya kamma vipaka. That will bring vipaka before any other pending vipaka.
Other than those, there could be many factors coming into play at the cuti-patisandhi moment. But if one of the strong vipaka is clearly stronger, it will come to the front. But if there are several vipaka of about the same “magnitude”, that is when the state of the mind could play a role.
The other KEY POINT to remember is that grasping a new bhava is NOT done CONSCIOUSLY. It is automatic, based on those and possibly other factors. It happens naturally, just like many things in the nature just happen according to nature’s laws.
For example, when a reservoir starts overflowing, the water will go over the lowest point of the wall holding the water, if the height of the wall is not the same. Or, in a hurricane, while those trees with weak roots could be uprooted, one’s with strong roots will survive. It just happens, based on many factors at play (strength of the winds, weakness of roots, whether a tree a shielded by other trees, etc).
June 22, 2018 at 1:29 pm #16567
Thank you Lal:
It is the fear. The fear that one may end up in a bad realm despite
all one’s present efforts to the contrary. Unless, of course, one has attained the Sotapanna or higher stage. But as to that I know nothing either.
As far as I can see, all that one can do is to constantly re-enforce one’s good gathi (by staying away from akusala, observing the precepts,mindfulness, doing Metta Bhavana, Pattidana, and dana of any type), thus re-enforcing those kamma with good vipaka.
What else can be done?
again, I thank you
June 22, 2018 at 3:01 pm #16568
y not said: “As far as I can see, all that one can do is to constantly re-enforce one’s good gathi (by staying away from akusala, observing the precepts,mindfulness, doing Metta Bhavana, Pattidana, and dana of any type), thus re-enforcing those kamma with good vipaka.”
Yes. Only thing we can do is to stay on the Noble Path. The Buddha said that the only thing a farmer can do is to take care of the field by providing water, nutrients, etc. A good harvest will result. No point is worrying about whether one will have a good harvest.
June 22, 2018 at 4:10 pm #16569
Yes Sir !
June 25, 2018 at 3:22 am #16632
In the chart above from SengKiat it is shown that the citta for patisandhi to the apayas have the unwholesome roots (lobha, dosa, moha). The higher realms are reached with the wholesome roots (alobha, adosa, amoha).
The stages of Nibbana also require the good roots (alobha, adosa, amoha). There are 6 roots and the Arahant gives up all six. How come that it requires the 3 good roots for magga phala?
June 25, 2018 at 5:06 am #16637
Can someone post a link to a sutta with explanation of tihetuka, dvihetuka, ahetuka patisandhi? Or can this topic only be found in the Abhidhamma?
June 25, 2018 at 5:56 am #16640
@Tobias: The bottom line is that one attains the Arahanthood by clearly seeing the futility of being born ANYWHERE in the 31 realms.
That is reached in steps. First one sees the dangers in cultivating sankhara with the three unwholesome roots. That leads to the Sotapanna stage, and stopping rebirth in the apayas.
Then one sees the futility in born in the kama loka, at a higher level of panna (wisdom). That leads to stopping rebirth in human and deva realms.
All those were done by cultivating sankhara with the three wholesome or good roots. That process continues to the Arahant stage, where one can see the futility in being reborn even in the rupavacara and arupavacara brahma realms.
To look at it from another way: The panna cetasika is optimized only at the Arahant stage. At that point one has attained “Samma Nana”, which is the optimum nana (vision of the true nature of this world is complete), and that leads to “Samma Vimutti” or “total and complete release”.
This is why it is said that: “Attangehi samannagato Sekha, dasa angehi samannagato Arahant” or “one who is completing the Noble Eightfold Path is a Trainee, and one who has completed the next two (Samma Nana and Samma Vimutti) is an Arahant“.
So, when one attains the Arahant stage, there is no NEED to cultivate even the three good roots. “What needs to be done is done; there is nothing nmore to do”.
All six roots lead to rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms. It is just that cultivating the three good roots leads to the “knowledge of the real nature of this world”. But that REQUIRES hearing about Tilakkhana from a Buddha or a true disciple of a Buddha. Otherwise, just cultivating the three good roots will not get one to Nibbana.
You asked: “Can someone post a link to a sutta with explanation of tihetuka, dvihetuka, ahetuka patisandhi? Or can this topic only be found in the Abhidhamma?”
– I think the explanation is available only in Abhidhamma. I could be wrong.
August 19, 2018 at 6:19 am #17897
It is said that a Sakadagami returns to the kama loka ( in a realm above the human) only once more, that is, to ONE more bhava in an appropriate deva realm. Does this mean that he may attain a rupa or an arupa existence during or after that according to his striving there, or that he inevitably attains Nibbana directly after that deva existence?
I ask this because the Buddha on more than one occasion stated that such-and-such a person has ascended to a particular realm ‘and will attain release from there’. Can the attainment of that release be a gradual one, first through still higher states before attaining Nibbana…..or is it implied that he (in this case,the Sakadagami) will automatically attain Nibbana directly, that is, either during that bhava (through magga phala anantariya kamma ) or right after it is ended.?
August 19, 2018 at 8:03 am #17898
y not said: “I ask this because the Buddha on more than one occasion stated that such-and-such a person has ascended to a particular realm ‘and will attain release from there’.
It is true that the Buddha has made such statements regarding SPECIFIC individuals.
When people asked him “what is the gati, what is the birth of so and so who just died?”, the Buddha may have said, he had attained the Sakadagami stage before dying and that he will born in a deva realm and attain Nibbana from there.
That is because the Buddha can see that for that individual.
That does not mean it will happen to any Sakadagami. The general rule is that a Sakadagami will not be born again in the human or lower realms and will be born only once in a deva realm. If he/she does not attain Arahanthood there, he/she will be born in a higher realms(s) and attain Nibbana in the future, without ever coming back to the kama loka.
August 19, 2018 at 9:11 am #17900
Thank you Lal.
‘..If he/she does not attain Arahanthood there, he/she will be born in a higher realms(s) and attain Nibbana in the future,…’
that is, depending on his /her striving in the future (after that deva bhava). I understand. Not that that deva bhava will be his/her last bhava in sansara ,having of necessity attained Arahanthood there.
Boundless gratitude for all your compassion,
September 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm #18355
#3 “In the last citta vithi, a previous kamma vipaka provides an arammana (thought object) associated with that kamma vipaka through one of the five sense doors: it is normally a visual or a sound associated with the new existence (BHAVA)…….the person will see or hear very clearly whatever the nimitta presented by the kamma vipaka”
In this and several other posts it is stated that this provision (of nimitta and arammana) applies where there is, or is to be, a change in Bhava – that is,a change in the type of Bhava, if I read correctly). Will this also apply when the next bhava is again a human one? It is rare to attain a human bhava anyway, so I understand that it should therefore be even rarer to attain two consecutive human bhavas. I refer to the case where kamma vipaka in the last jati of a human bhava impels one to be born human once again.
Another question is: does this provision of a nimitta/arammana apply also to determine the next jati in a human bhava? If not, what determines the conditions of the next jati here? Will it be a direct consequence of,or influenced overwhelmingly by, the abhisankhara and therefore the javana power generated during the present jati?
A related point: what of those dying persons of theistic beliefs who ‘go’ (apparently) with an image of some saviour or saint or a loved ones as their last thought- object? I am inclined to think that the PRACTICAL experiences of their lives will override any belief, otherwise they are creating their own subjective destinations simply by their wishes or hopes (equivalent to ‘Devachan’ in Theosophy), while what makes sense is that one goes where one deserves to, where one has made oneself fit to go by his very living (deeds, speech and thoughts)
Metta to all
September 15, 2018 at 3:41 pm #18356
- Let me address this first: “Another question is: does this provision of a nimitta/arammana apply also to determine the next jati in a human bhava?”
- “In this and several other posts it is stated that this provision (of nimitta and arammana) applies where there is, or is to be, a change in Bhava – that is,a change in the type of Bhava, if I read correctly). Will this also apply when the next bhava is again a human one?”
- “A related point: what of those dying persons of theistic beliefs who ‘go’ (apparently) with an image of some saviour or saint or a loved ones as their last thought- object? I am inclined to think that the PRACTICAL experiences of their lives will override any belief,..”
No. A nimitta induces the mind to grasp a new bhava, not a new jati.
– For example, when one is in a human bhava, one may be born (jati) with a human body many times. So, grasping of a nimitta does not happen until one is born for the last time as a human.
– Until then, when the physical human body dies, gandhabba just comes out and waits for a suitable womb. A suitable womb is decided by Nature, based on one’s gati at that time. One’s bhava remains the same.
Yes. If one dies the last death in that human bhava, and grasps a brand new human bhava, then a nimitta is grasped at that time.
– However, it is important to realize that this nimitta could be associated with a kamma done even in a previous life (if the nimitta is associated with a particular kamma).
It is not possible for oneself to determine the nimitta, in most cases. The strongest kamma beeja from the past (could be from many lives back) is selected by Nature. At the moment of cuti-patisandhi, the mind is controlled by that kamma vipaka.
– For example, one can actually see some dying people get scared at the dying moment (If they are grasping a bad bhava), because they may see or hear a scene from the next bad bhava). In the same way, others may “go peacefully” with pleasant facial features, if the next bhava is in a good realm and they see a nimitta (sign) from that realm.
– However, in some cases one’s mindset may have some influence in grasping the next bhava (especially if it happens to be a gati nimitta; one would not know). In many Asian Buddhist countries, people try to induce good thoughts by playing paritta (suttas) or discourses that one used to like, etc., at deathbed.
It is a complex subject. Feel free to ask more questions. That is the only way to clarify finer points.
September 15, 2018 at 5:54 pm #18358
Thank you Lal:
So I take it that, as to ” what determines the conditions of the next jati here? Will it be a direct consequence of,or influenced overwhelmingly by, the abhisankhara and therefore the javana power generated during the present jati?”, that will depend on how Existence or the Nature balances the strenghts of the kamma vipaka that brought about the present bhava on one side, and on the other, the javana power generated during the present jati? Is that how it is? and there will be no indications or signs of the next jati at all(equivalent to the nimitta on the change of bhava). I hope I have been clear.
In short, I am trying to see whether one can ‘choose’, or at least influence to a significant degree, the conditions of the next jati (in the current bhava) by powerful abhisankhara(s) and thus ‘overpower’ or divert at will the overall blueprint of the bhava – as an idea,somewhat in parallel with the instantaneous change of bhava between opapatika realms due to anantariya kamma; of course, in the human realm it will not be in the same jati, but will it be possible in the next one? This is what I mean. Again, I hope I have been clear.
And, Lal: we always say that Existence or Nature ‘knows’. The thought may arise that since It knows, It is therefore an entity, because to know is an attribute of sentient beings -therefore, Existence (in its totality) is a Being.. The Mahāyāna get around this by describing It as Be-ness, thus approving of the attribute or quality of being in itself, or by itself, but denying it form or ‘Entity-ness’. I see it as the natural Law that operates, for instance, when one goes outdoors on a chilly night after having had a hot bath. There is no one there declaring the effect and administering the punishment of catching a cold. As someone wrote: one is punished BY one’s wrongdoings not FOR them..and we may add, one is rewarded BY one’s virtues not FOR them. I felt like going a bit into this, not that it is of any consequence. Excuse me for it.
September 15, 2018 at 7:52 pm #18359
“In short, I am trying to see whether one can ‘choose’, or at least influence to a significant degree, the conditions of the next jati (in the current bhava) by powerful abhisankhara(s) and thus ‘overpower’ or divert at will the overall blueprint of the bhava..”
Abhisankhara means good or bad kamma. Just one bad abhisnakhara (killing a parent, for example) can change the whole picture instantaneously. Just making good thoughts at the dying moment may not make much of a difference (unless, of course it is a strong kamma, good or bad).
– Furthermore, the bigger unknown is what kind of kamma we may have done in previous lives and are waiting to bring vipaka. This why we need to strive hard to make progress on the Path.
“we always say that Existence or Nature ‘knows’. The thought may arise that since It knows, It is therefore an entity, because to know is an attribute of sentient beings ..”
This is a version of Creator concept. There is “no entity” called Nature. When I say, “ A suitable womb is decided by Nature”, I do not mean that literally.
– Actually, the world operates according to paticca samuppada. Things happen due to causes, under suitable conditions. It may not be possible to sort out exactly why something happens, because there could be multiple causes leading to that.
– When one throws a stone, there is no “entity” out there making sure that stone flies a certain distance. There are laws of Nature (Newton’s Laws and laws of gravitation) that automatically operate to make the stone take a certain path. Similarly, a tiny seed grows to be a mighty tree according to universal laws. A gandhabba being pulled into a “gati-matching womb” is just like that.
September 16, 2018 at 1:36 am #18361
Thank you Lal,
I never accepted this Creator concept, even as a child, and that in a Catholic country. I was satisfied that I could prove it TO MYSELF, no point trying to discuss it with others who are content to just ‘go with the flow’ and feel safe and secure in the numbers there. I just wanted the state my view.
“…the bigger unknown…This is why we need to strive hard to make progress on the Path” It boils down to this, as always; (while)the operations of Existence will proceed in the way they always have, irrespective of how we conceive of them.
May you attain Nibbana in this life,
Ever so grateful
September 16, 2018 at 6:04 am #18362
““…the bigger unknown…This is why we need to strive hard to make progress on the Path” It boils down to this, as always;..”
You are exactly right, y not. If one can see the anicca nature, that is all that really matters.
– In the Susima sutta that I mentioned in the most recent post, “Pannāvimutti – Arahanthood without Jhāna“, the Buddha told bhikkhu Susima that pannavimutti Arahants do not care about abhinna powers, because they have seen the anicca Nature of those things too.
Some of the technical things that I discuss are not necessary to attain Nibbana. It is just to instill “knowledge-based faith” in those who like to investigate things in depth, and to show the critics that Buddha Dhamma is a complete description of Nature.
October 5, 2018 at 4:47 am #18679
Can a dvihetuka person be a sotapanna anugami? Such a person cannot attain magga/phala citta in that bhava. But for a sotapanna anugami no magga citta are required. But a sotapanna anugami belongs to the sangha.
October 5, 2018 at 5:52 am #18680
Yes. A Sotapanna Anugamai belongs to the Sangha. That is the key point. Someone with a dvi-hetuka birth cannot become a part of the Sangha, because the level of wisdom (panna) for a dvi-hetuka birth is not enough to comprehend Tilakkhana (and the asubha and viparinama nature).
It is important to realize that “a given lifestream” can grasp very different bhava even in consecutive cuti-patisandhi moments. It is just how kamma beeja “line up” for the next bhava at the next cuti-patisandhi moment; see “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
For example, Ven. Moggallana was born in the niraya (lowest realm in apayas) in a recent life. But once his anantariya kamma (killing his parents) was paid off significantly, he was born with not only a tihetuka birth, but also to become a chief disciple of the Buddha. Of course, there was a “left-over” bit of that strong kamma, that led to getting beaten up and leading to a tragical death. Kamma is very complex.
Not only that, but Ven. Moggallana was born in the niraya (hell) in relatively recent times (before that last one), because he had been the Mara Devaputta during Buddha Kakusandha and harassed that Buddha. This story is in the Maratajjaniya Sutta (MN 50). A decent translation is at: “Maratajjaniya Sutta“.
Of course, we know that a birth in the niraya is much worse than a birth in animal or peta realms.
Therefore, having a dvi-hetuka birth does not mean one is not close to Nibbana. This is why we should strive to the fullest especially since it is very difficult to distinguish between dvi-hetuka and ti-hetuka births.
An aside: This is also why it does not make sense to think there a “self”. However, as long as one has specific gati that can lead to rebirth in good or bad realms, it is not possible to say “there is no self” either; each person is different. This is a deeper point.
October 5, 2018 at 9:03 am #18681
Lal, so you say a Sotapanna Anugami must have the mindset for grasping the Tilakkhana and this requires tihetuka birth.
October 5, 2018 at 9:07 am #18682
Yes. Is there a contradiction?
October 7, 2018 at 9:06 am #18752
No contradiction, just for my understanding. Thank you!
October 7, 2018 at 8:51 pm #18760AkvanParticipant
I have heard or read (though I cannot recall where) that a sotapanna anugamu will definitely attain sotapanna pala before his death in that very same life time. If someone has a tripitaka reference for this would be great if you can share it.
The only similar reference I have found is in the Puggala pragnapthi dathu katha, where two types of individuals are mentioned; shaddanusari and dhammanusari. Both are working towards attaining sotapanna pala. The former will attain sotapanna pala as shadda being the forerunner while for the latter pragna will be the forerunner.
October 8, 2018 at 2:42 pm #18774sybe07Spectator
Do you refer to Samyutta Nikāya 25.1 and next sutta’s?
January 3, 2019 at 4:55 am #21139
I come back to the terms tihetuka/dvihetuka. From the Abhidhamma perspective the 2 cetasika of alobha and adosa are universal sobhana cetasika. They are in every sobhana citta. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika are not mixed in a citta. Hence when a being has sobhana citta at cutipatisandhi there will be no moha cetasika, i.e. amoha. But that means every sobhana (vipaka) citta at cutipatisandhi generates a tihetuka patisandhi, right?
January 3, 2019 at 5:27 am #21140
Dr. Mehm Tin Mon describes tihetuka kamma in his book Buddha Abhidhamma Ultimate Science, p. 200:
“If one performs a wholesome deed with the knowledge of kamma and its effect, i.e. kammasakata-nana, then nana-sampayutta maha-kusala cittas arise. The cetana associated with these cittas are accompanied by three good roots, namely, alobha, adosa and amoha. So tihetuka-kusala kamma is acquired.”
Can it be that for tihetuka patisandhi an “early stage” of panna is required, i.e. an understanding that ones actions will have consequences (kamma effect)?
January 3, 2019 at 7:07 am #21144
Tobias: You are right in the sense that one needs to go beyond mere “amoha” to have a tihetuka patisandhi. One needs to go to Abhidhamma to clarify this point.
I have not done a post on the eight types of kusala citta (I have done one on the 12 types of akusala citta in the Abhidhamma section).
In order to have a tihetuka patisandhi, one needs to do a kusala kamma with the first four types of kusala citta, which are “nanasampayutta” or “with knowledge”. Here with knowledge means “with the understanding that good kamma are bound to have good vipaka”.
This is discussed Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” starting at p. 46.
– Similar explanation is likely to be in the pdf of Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.
Obviously, an understanding of Tilakkhana is not necessary here to be “nanasampayutta”.
– One first gets a tihetuka patisandhi by doing a kusala kamma with that “basic understanding”. Then once born with that tihetuka birth, one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.
January 3, 2019 at 9:51 am #21147
Perfectly explained. Thank you, Lal!
The mistake is when amoha is taken to be panna. But regarding tihetuka the term amoha is more than “without moha”. That is not easy to see.
February 1, 2019 at 2:21 am #21702
Please see the post Cuti-Patisandhi – An Abhidhamma Description, #3:
“…In the last citta vithi, a previous kamma vipaka provides an arammana (thought object) associated with that kamma vipaka through one of the five sense doors: it is normally a visual or a sound associated with the new existence (bhava). Even though the person’s physical faculties may be very weak, the person will see or hear very clearly whatever the nimitta presented by the kamma vipaka. Then at the vottapana citta, the mind makes a decision to act on that arammana based on the person’s gathi. The person has no control of it. It is called, “kammaja pure jatha; cittaja pacce jatha”, i.e., kamma vipaka comes first, and then accordingly the javana citta flow grasping that new bhava…”
Here it seems as if the vipaka for the new bhava comes to the mind only in the last citta vithi. But we all have heard about people who saw the new distination already days before the death. How does this go together with the arammana in the very last citta vithi? Will the new bhava be confirmed only in the last moments of the old life?
February 1, 2019 at 5:42 am #21703
Tobias wrote: “..But we all have heard about people who saw the new distination already days before the death. ..Will the new bhava be confirmed only in the last moments of the old life?”
Yes. That ārammana (thought object) starts to come to the mind even days before cuti-patisandhi moment in the last citta vithi.
P.S. This happens to reinforce that ārammana in the mind.
Suppose it is a human who is about to grasp a new lower bhava (in the apāyās). If the person has removed “apāyagāmi gathi”, that ārammana will not take hold. If it does not take hold, then the “next strong vipāka in line” will come to the mind. That will go on until an ārammana for a “good bhava” (compatible with the Sotapanna stage, for example) comes to the mind. Then it will not be rejected by the mind, and it will stay there until the last citta vithi, where it will be grasped.
October 22, 2021 at 2:05 pm #35906
Please see manual of Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 179:
Analysis by way of individuals (ahetuka/duhetuka, guide to § 24)
“…nor can such beings attain absorption either by way of jhanas or the path …”
Is this another option to distinguish between ahetuka/duhetuka and tihetuka patisandhi? But what is here “absorption”? Samadhi can be of many kinds.
October 22, 2021 at 2:51 pm #35907cubibobiParticipant
“The frog of course could not understand the desana, but his state of the mind (due the soothing voice of the Buddha) enabled him to grasp a deva bhava, based on a strong past good kamma.”
With respect to the monkey, I have read the following story (I will have to search for it):
A monkey offered honey to the Buddha.
The Buddha accepted the honey, and the monkey was overcome with joy, fell into a well and died.
The monkey was reborn a human and attained arahanthood.
October 22, 2021 at 5:56 pm #35909
My answer to Tobias’s question is as follows:
A human with ahetuka/dvihetuka (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book has it as ahetuka/duhetuka) birth cannot attain magga phala OR jhanas in this human bhava.
– I think that is what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to say there. The discussion on that page is on (ahetuka) and double-rooted (dvihetuka) individuals.
– One MUST have a triple-rooted kamma (with all three “good roots” of alobha, adosa, amoha) giving rise to a “tihetuka birth” to be able to attain magga phala/jhana.
By the way, dvihetuka birth is brought by a kamma done with two “good roots”: amoha/alobha OR amoha/adosa.
– An ahetuka birth there DOES MEAN “without any roots” (i.e., no alobha, adosa, or amoha). That kamma may have just alobha or adosa without any understanding. The word “ahetuka” refers to the “helpless nature” of such a birth.
– While a dvihetuka person can accumulate punna kamma that can lead to a tihetuka birth in the future, a person who has an “ahetuka birth” is not capable of that. Those are persons born with severe disabilities.
Furthermore, it is NOT possible to determine whether a given person is dvihetuka or tihetuka.
– This is a tricky issue and sometimes people get discouraged whether they have a dvihetuka birth. For example, Ven. Culapanthaka almost gave up the robes because he could not memorize even a single verse. But he had a tihetuka birth. A previous akusala kamma had been “covering his mind”. Luckily the Buddha was there to see that and to give an appropriate kammatthana to overcome that situation. He attained Arahanthood overnight.
– So, we all should assume that we have tihetuka births and make effort. That effort will bear fruit either way.
November 23, 2021 at 2:39 am #36164earthdwellerParticipant
why in dvihetuka
the root mentioned only alobha and adosa
is it possible also in dvihetuka consist of amoha & alobha without adosa
or amoha & adosa without alobha
if isnt possible, why?
thank you for the explanation
November 23, 2021 at 2:32 am #36163earthdwellerParticipant
why in dvihetuka
the root mentioned only alobha and adosa
isnt it possible also dvihetuka consist of amoha & alobha without adosa
or amoha & adosa without alobha
if isnt possible, why?
thank you for the explanation
November 23, 2021 at 9:29 am #36165
You asked: “why in dvihetuka the root mentioned only alobha and adosa without amoha”
Actually, dvihetuka is defined as alobha/amoha OR adosa/amoha.
– Amoha MUST be there.
That is because in order to understand Buddha Dhamma (to a basic level or to a deeper level) one must at least understand that one’s actions WILL HAVE consequences.
– That basic level of “wisdom” is needed for both dvihetuka and tihetuka.
Then to understand the deeper dhamma and get to magga phala, one must have a tihetuka birth with amoha/alobha/adosa.
November 24, 2021 at 9:45 am #36167
See post 31 realms – table:
Dvihetuka means kusala kamma done with alobha, adosa.
Ahetuka means kusala kamma done with only alobha, adosa, but also without enthusiasm.
Is that correct?
November 24, 2021 at 10:52 am #36174
That is not quite correct. I just revised it as follows:
3. Tihetuka means kusala kamma done with alobha, adosa, amoha.
– Dvihetuka means kusala kamma done with alobha/amoha or adosa/amoha.
– Here, amoha means one would have wisdom at least at the minimum level, i.e., one would be aware of the laws of kamma.
– Ahetuka means kusala kamma done with alobha/adosa, but without comprehending the laws of kamma (i.e., one’s actions would have consequences in the future.)
January 11, 2022 at 1:56 pm #36484cubibobiParticipant
Hope everyone has had a good 2022.
I was reading the following post which mentions a nimitta, so I thought this is a good forum to ask a couple of questions about it.
Ye Dhammā Hetuppabhavā.. and Yam Kiñci Samudaya Dhammam..
#10 discusses the nimitta.
(1) Let’s say a person is dying, and a nimitta comes in. That is an arammana that comes into contact with the mano indriya, correct? The other 5 indriya must be in the process of shutting down at that time.
(2) Besides the dying moment, are images in dreams also considered a nimitta?
Now some questions beyond PD, since this reminds me of a conversation I had with someone some time ago.
I explained to this person the Buddha Dhamma I learned here. He then made the following point, something like this:
If what you are saying is correct, then for a puthujjana, his rebirth is random. For a puthujjana, at the dying moment, any kamma bija from an infinite past can come at random, and he does not have the ability to reject it.
A sotapanna can reject apayagami kamma bijā, and beings with higher magga phala can reject more and more kamma bijā, and the arahant can reject all.
To rephrase it using this post, a puthujjana cannot reject the first nimitta that comes in at the dying moment.
What are your thoughts on this argument? I know that it goes against the hetu pala principle, yet there seems to be a validity to it.
January 11, 2022 at 5:14 pm #36486
Regarding the first two questions by Lang (cubibobi):
(1) A nimitta can come through any of the six senses. But the cuti-patisandhi transition ALWAYS happens at the manodvara. All citta vithi starting with pancadvara are followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. I may not have explained that in a post yet.
– Sometimes, a nimitta comes through one of the pancadvara, and by the time cuti-patisandhi happens all physical senses may have died.
(2) Dreams come through only manodvara.
“If what you are saying is correct, then for a puthujjana, his rebirth is random. For a puthujjana, at the dying moment, any kamma bija from an infinite past can come at random, and he does not have the ability to reject it.
A sotapanna can reject apayagami kamma bijā, and beings with higher magga phala can reject more and more kamma bijā, and the arahant can reject all..”
Whether it is an average human (puthujjana) or a Sotapanna or even an Arahant, it is not a conscious rejection of a nimitta.
– Whether to accept a nimitta or not happens AUTOMATICALLY at the votthapana citta in a citta vithi. The mind automatically accepts or rejects a nimitta according to the panna (or wisdom) it has cultivated.
– As we know, a citta vithi takes only a billionth of a second. There is no time to make a conscious decision.
– See, “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
It is exactly according to hetu-phala, and nothing else.
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