[NuanceOfSuchness]

Hi. I’ve been in and out of jhanas now for nearly two years. I’m very disenchanted by them now and can enter them and let them pass with little bother. The psychological and physiological conditions need to be just right for me to enter jhana but I can do this even in very busy and noisy places.

Now, recently I notice that I’ve been shifting through three of these states within about 15-20 minutes. This is very new to me and I’m not sure if the quick shifting through the jhanas are even relevant. I recognize the qualities of each shift very easily as, previously, I would spend hours and days in some of these states. I seem to end on the third where there is intense awareness of the space in-between objects of the world. I don’t ‘see’ objects directly but the space around them seems to have much more relevance – the paradox being that there is nothing there.

I’ve been studying the Anupada Sutta around this to try and ferret out the mental qualities but I’m not sure I’m on the right track. Naturally, the three Marks of Existences always play a role in my observations.

Is anyone familiar with this quick moving through the jhanas and how did you approach it?

[Christian]

To be honest what you explaining seems not even close to jhana to be honest. Are you sure those are jhanas? What in-between object have to do with jhana?

From my experience jhanas are very are those days. (I mean the real one)

[NuanceOfSuchness]

I’ve left a lot of information out as my question isn’t querying the subjective nature of jhanas and the language used to describe them. If you could keep to the question at hand I would be very grateful.

[Christian]

To make any progress in Buddha Dhamma first you make sure you understand it very clearly so you can relate any situation in relation to Dhamma. I would suggest to learn key Dhamma concepts and to attain right view. If you are able to attain 4th jhana, try to study Anicca nature in 4th jhana or in any jhana anicca nature of any state.

Not understanding Buddha Dhamma (as explained by Buddha) is cause of any fuss in practice, whatever in ceto or panna vimutti

[Lal]

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
“Now, recently I notice that I’ve been shifting through three of these states within about 15-20 minutes. This is very new to me and I’m not sure if the quick shifting through the jhanas are even relevant. I recognize the qualities of each shift very easily as, previously, I would spend hours and days in some of these states”.

One can go through jhana very quickly with practice.
It is said that Ven. Sariputta could go through all 8 jhana, attain Nirodha Samapatti, and “get back” within a brief moment.

Yes. One could also stay in a given jhana for hours.

Regarding: “I seem to end on the third where there is intense awareness of the space in-between objects of the world. I don’t ‘see’ objects directly but the space around them seems to have much more relevance – the paradox being that there is nothing there”

The jhanic experiences in the first four jhana are clearly described by the Buddha in the “Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)“.

The relevant section from the English translation at that site is given below, which is fairly good (It seems to me that jhanic experiences may be the same for Ariya and anariya jhanas; these jhanas correspond to mental states of rupavacara brahma realms. Also note that while abandonment of the 10 types of miccha ditthi is needed for anariya jhanas, Ariya jhanas require a level of comprehension of Tilakkhana):

The First Jhāna
“Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states (my comment: these are greed, hate/anger, and 10 types of miccha ditthi), he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

“Great king, suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Second Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the subsiding of applied and sustained thought (my comment: i.e., vitakka/vicara are lost, but savitakka/savicara remain), the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is without applied and sustained thought, and is filled with the rapture and happiness born of concentration. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.

“Great king, suppose there were a deep lake whose waters welled up from below. It would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south, nor would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; yet a current of cool water, welling up from within the lake, would drench, steep, saturate and suffuse the whole lake, so that there would be no part of that entire lake which is not suffused with the cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with the rapture and happiness born of concentration, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Third Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the fading away of rapture (my comment: i.e., piti or joy is lost), the bhikkhu dwells in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and experiences happiness with the body. Thus he enters and dwells in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare: ‘He dwells happily with equanimity and mindfulness.’ He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness.

“Great king, suppose in a lotus pond there were blue, white, or red lotuses that have been born in the water, grow in the water, and never rise up above the water, but flourish immersed in the water. From their tips to their roots they would be drenched, steeped, saturated, and suffused with cool water, so that there would be no part of those lotuses not suffused with cool water. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu drenches, steeps, saturates and suffuses his body with the happiness free from rapture, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this happiness. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

The Fourth Jhāna
“Further, great king, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain (my comment: there was no pain in the third jhana, just the sukha that was in the third jhana also abandoned), and with the previous passing away of joy and grief, the bhikkhu enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, which is neither pleasant nor painful and contains mindfulness fully purified by equanimity. He sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind (my comment: one’s physical body no longer is felt, and only a “white light” is discerned; that white light is the only “rupa” left to be cognized), so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind.

“Great king, suppose a man were to be sitting covered from the head down by a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his entire body not suffused by the white cloth. In the same way, great king, the bhikkhu sits suffusing his body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his entire body not suffused by a pure bright mind. This too, great king, is a visible fruit of recluseship more excellent and sublime than the previous ones.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

This Sutta is just what I need at this time. From the subheading ‘insight knowledge’ onwards it describes perfectly my modes of contemplation while in jhanas. It tells me that my own intuitive direction is on point.

I will further study the Sutta. Greatest compassion.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

@Christian. Understanding Buddha Dhamma happens in me like this: I cross reference what people say with what I read in the suttas and with my own experience. It’s not an exact science but it has held me in good ground for the last two years. This is right view. 80-90 percent of awakening is very unique in the individual and is born from internally intuitive direction. Thus, I never hold to what people say or what I read until my own discerning faculties have informed me in such a way through deep knowledge. This too is right view. Thank you for your replies and greatest respect for being my teacher.

[Christian]

“For me” “What I think” “my experience” = wrong views.

I’m not a teacher, Buddha is. You have very wrong self-assumptions but rather than focus on them (hate, greed, and lust) you rather follow jhana. If you can follow up with jhanas then even the first one is enough to attain Nibbana, why pursuing them more when the first one is enough? Don’t be an example of addiction or attachment to jhana. :)

I would prefer for you to focus on Buddha Dhamma and jhana as the way you explaining things have no relation to what Buddha taught or Dhamma. The point of this site and forum I think is to show the right direction of understanding, try to follow it with the jhanas and you will benefit much more then what you are aiming for now.

[NuanceOfSuchness]

@Christian – you have taught me once more. I am privileged. Thank you.

[Author]

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