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Welcome to the forum, Austin. Thank you for sharing your experiences on the forum.
Austin has been writing to me for a little while. I am impressed with his devotion at such a young stage.
I do not know those other “gurus” and techniques mentioned in his comment. I encouraged Austin to share his experience so that he may get some feedback from those who may be familiar with those techniques.
Vedananupassana in Satipatthana involves both those, Akmal.
1. While doing Vedananupassana one is supposed to contemplate how both types of vedana ARISE.
– In particular, one needs to contemplate on how samphassa-ja-vedana arise, and that those are the ones that are going to bring FUTURE vipaka vedana.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be avoided and one should contemplate on that and avoid them.
– Those bad samphassa-ja-vedana can be reduced only by changing one’s gati (or anusaya).
– Most people do not realize that one can acquire “bad gati” by just engaging in “bad conscious thoughts” or bad vaci sankhara based on samphassa-ja-vedana. See, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra.” Of course, bad kaya sankhara MUST BE avoided too. But vaci sankhara come before kaya sankhara (upon the arising of samphassa-ja-vedana), and that is why focusing on vaci sankhara is important.
– For example, an alcoholic sees an accessible bottle of alcohol, he gets a nice warm feeling (samphassa-ja-vedana). First, he thinks about having a drink and then, of course, proceeds (with kaya sankhara) to have a drink. So, it must be stopped with the first idea of having a drink (vaci sankhara).2. Vipaka vedana are the RESULTS of past deeds or past kamma. One may be able to avoid some by acting wisely, but many are UNAVOIDABLE.
– So, one should really investigate how future vipaka vedana can be STOPPED by being mindful and avoiding bad deeds (kaya sankhara) AND bad conscious thoughts and speech (vaci sankhara).3. By engaging in Vedananupassana, one can reduce bad gati (and thereby anusaya), AND cultivate good gati. That helps cultivate samadhi and panna (wisdom). Getting to samadhi means “cooling down the mind” and a “cooled, calmed” mind can grasp deep Dhamma easier and thereby cultivate panna (wisdom).
– Those results are common to the other three types of Satipatthana too.4. I am glad that Johnny, y not, and Akmal all thought of the significance of these factors. I hope that we can “connect more dots” and get a better overall picture with the remaining posts in the “Origin of Life” series.
To answer y not’s question: This is the reason that I am writing the new series on the “Origin of Life.”
Our experiences are just a series of events.
– Our experiences are the results of past kamma. We need to remember that kamma can be good, bad, or neutral. Thus vipaka are also good, bad, and neutral.
– Therefore, our experiences are just the results of past causes.
– There is no need for the concept of a “self.”However, we cannot say that there is “no-self” either since each person responds differently to sensory inputs. That is because each person has different temporary gati. So, this is related to Johnny’s question in the previous comment.
– Therefore, even though there is no “self” like a “soul”, there is a “self” who, based on those experiences starts doing NEW kamma (to enjoy more pleasurable experiences or to avoid unpleasurable ones.)
– Of course, those will bring vipaka in the future, and that is why the rebirth process continues.Instead of debating whether there is a “self” or “no-self”, we can explain everything in terms of Paticca Samuppada. It may take a few more posts in this series to get there.
y not has sent me the following comment to publish. Apparently, he ran into a problem getting it published at the forum. If anyone else has that problem, please let me know ([email protected]).
y not’s comment:
The Great Discourse on Causation
4. Regarding a SelfThe whole section (as well as the whole sutta, for that matter) is worth reading and reflecting upon. With regard to Vedana, the highlight comes just past the half-way point:
“So those who say ‘feeling is my self’ regard as self that which is evidently impermanent, a mixture of pleasure and pain, and liable to rise and fall.”
(Iti so diṭṭheva dhamme aniccasukhadukkhavokiṇṇaṃ uppādavayadhammaṃ attānaṃ samanupassamāno samanupassati, yo so evamāha: ‘vedanā me attā’ti)Here ‘vedanā me attā’ti’ is translated ‘feeling is my self’ in the sense of asmi mana’, I take it: ‘I’ cannot be other than these feelings; and not in the sense ‘these feelings are anatta’. Is that how it is?
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard feeling as self.”
(Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ).
Again, the same question here.“Now, as to those who say:
‘Feeling is definitely not my self. My self does not experience feeling.’ You should say this to them
“But reverend, where there is nothing felt at all, would the thought “I am” occur there?’”
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which does not experience feeling.” *
(‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, appaṭisaṃvedano me attā’ti, so evamassa vacanīyo:
‘yattha panāvuso, sabbaso vedayitaṃ natthi api nu kho, tattha “ayamahamasmī”ti siyā’”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”)*This verse needs some clarification. It appears to say: that which does NOT experience feeling is anatta.(??)
So, does it follow that which experiences feeling be atta? That cannot be so either, as per the next verse:“Now, as to those who say:
Feeling is definitely not my self. But it’s not that my self does not experience feeling. My self feels, for my self is liable to feel.’
You should say this to them,
‘Suppose feelings were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over
When there’s no feeling at all, with the cessation of feeling, would the thought “I AM THIS” occur there?’” (my capitals)
“No, sir.”
“That’s why it’s not acceptable to regard self as that which is liable to feel.”
(na heva kho me vedanā ATTA, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me ATTA, ATTA me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me ATTA’ti.
So evamassa vacanīyo—
vedanā ca hi, āvuso, sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesā nirujjheyyuṃ.
Sabbaso vedanāya asati vedanānirodhā api nu kho tattha ‘ayamahamasmī’ti siyā”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Tasmātihānanda, etena petaṃ nakkhamati: ‘na heva kho me vedanā attā, nopi appaṭisaṃvedano me attā, attā me vediyati, vedanādhammo hi me attā’ti samanupassituṃ…then follows the hurdle to surmount:
“Not regarding anything in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.(So evaṃ na samanupassanto na ca kiñci loke upādiyati)
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.(anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati)It is clear that vedana are of anatta nature, but in what sense is ‘atta’ intended here? For a person thinks:
‘if I am not my feelings, what else can I be (made of), what else is it worthwhile being made of’? ‘(vedanā me attā’ti samanupassituṃ)’The hurdle is this: for all but Anagamis and Arahants, it is impossible to conceive of a state of being where sukkha can be (made of) anything else but somanassa vedana. One knows that this is not so in actual fact (for one sees that vedana are anicca), yet one still cannot help perceiving it otherwise. Or, it can be said, the ditthi about dukkha is correct but not the sanna: one still hopes for an existence where to experience those pleasant feelings, even taking occasional unpleasant feelings and the risk of upheaval due to unexpected change (viparinama dukkha) in the bargain, taking even the inevitability of the end of that existence, death, in the bargain.
I would be very grateful if Lal would provide the correct translations of ‘atta’ as the word occurs above, IF they be other than ‘atta’ in the sense of ‘beyond our control’ or ‘beyond our power to influence’, as well as anything that may have escaped my notice, for the full import of at least this section 4 of the sutta.
Gati are not a form of vipaka vedana. But certainly, gati can influence what kind of vipaka vedana can materialize (or prevented).
Gati are habits/character qualities.
Your reference to “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya” post is exactly right.
– Past kamma are waiting for the right conditions to bring vipaka.
– By acting wisely, one can avoid bad vipaka and also make it likely for good vipaka to happen.
– In the same way, if one is living foolishly, one can (without even knowing) setup conditions for bad past kamma to bring vipaka, and avoid receiving good kamma vipaka.If one is eating junk food and not exercising, those are bad habits. They can make one get sick often. And the opposite lifestyle will avoid getting sick, injured etc.
If one is an alcoholic/drug addict, those are bad gati and can help set up conditions to get sick, get into fights, lose one’s job, etc.
– If one cultivates gati to engage in meritorious deeds, one is setting up conditions for good vipaka to materialize.There are many ways to contemplate this.
– Of course, following the Noble Path is the guaranteed way to get rid of bad gati and to cultivate good gati.Yes. The translation could be better.
The gist of the sutta is the following:
It is not possible for average humans to judge the spiritual attainments of another person. Only a Buddha can do that.Especially a lower magga phala (like Sotapanna or Sakadagami) depends on just the UNDERSTANDING of the unfruitful nature of this world and the danger of craving for things in this world. They have removed “DITTHI vipallasa” or “confusion about WRONG VIEWS.”
– But even that person may not know that in a few cases.
– Only a Buddha can see whether one has that understanding.However, a Sotapanna or a Sakadagami has NOT removed the sanna for sensory pleasures (that is why they are reborn in kama loka). In other words, he/she may UNDERSTAND that those are not worth pursuing. But they just cannot help enjoying sensory pleasures. That means they have not removed the “SANNA vipallasa”. That means “confusion on PERCEPTIONS about wrong/unfruitful activities”.
– When one substantially removes this sanna vipallasa, one WILL know that one has attained the Anagami stage. That is because one will no longer have cravings for tasty food, sex, etc.
– Even then other people would not know.This is actually related to a question that you had asked before, I think, regarding the Sabbasava Sutta.
– Ditthi vipallasa is removed at the Sotapanna stage. Then sanna vipallasa decreases as one goes through higher stages and is completely removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, sanna vipallasa about sensory pleasures (kama raga) is removed at the Anagami stage. That is why it is self-evident to THAT person, not to others.Yes. It is a good desana. As I remember, it does provide references to suttas with the statement, “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sappurisasaṃsevo, saddhammassavanaṃ, yonisomanasikāro, dhammānudhammappaṭipatti“.
– That includes the requirement of “listening to saddhamma or correct Buddha Dhamma“.A couple of such references are provided in the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” too.
In fact, many suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṃyutta SN (55)” of the Samyutta Nikāya discuss all four conditions required to attain the Sotapanna stage.
What I referred to in the reply to your first post on this topic above is the following:
– I am not aware of a TIpitaka REFERENCE that SPECIFICALLY says that Sotapanna PHALA CITTA is attained ONLY WHILE listening to an Ariya.
– See #3 of the post regarding this point. “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”If there is such a reference in the above desana of Ven. Abhaya, please get that reference from your friend and post it here. We all would appreciate that.
I hope you are having a productive time in Sri Lanka.
Thank you for the information, y not!
I was not aware of this information.
Some relevant information: This account is from “Milinda Panha“, which is a later addition to the Tipitaka.
– It is an account of a series of questions by a Greek King Milinda who ruled parts of India a few hundred years after the Buddha. The answers were provided by an Arahant named Nagasena.
– King Milinda was a Buddhist and had regular question and answer sessions with Ven. Nagasena.
– “Panha” means “questions”, so “Milinda Panha” means “Questions by Milinda”.
– The link provided by y not has English translations of those questions and answers.1 user thanked author for this post.
Thanks for letting us know, AxelSnaxel!
It would be nice to hear from you on any significant findings or the progress you make. Have a safe and successful trip!
Thank you for the suggestion. I will add it to the “to do” list. But I need to first finish the “Origin of Life” series.
Welcome to the forum, Paramitas!
We can get the basic idea by looking at existence in other realms. That gives a better perspective.
Everything happens due to causes and conditions. Each of us has been born due to a specific kamma vipaka.
– For example, a given animal is born due to a (bad) kamma vipaka. But a deva is born due to a good kamma vipaka.An animal cannot even sort out moral from immoral. A deva could, but the presence of so much “pleasures” prevents a deva from thinking about the possible suffering that can come for him in future births.
An ahetuka birth is much better than an animal birth but much worse than a dvihetuka or a tihetuka birth in the human realm.
– An ahtuka person does not have the mindset to comprehend Tilakkhana.
– But he/she can sort out moral from immoral and engage in meritorious deeds. That can lead to a better birth in the future, where one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.A dvihetuka person is in a better place. Even though he/she cannot comprehend Tilakkhana, he/she can make much more progress than an ahetuka person. That makes it much easier to get a Tihetuka birth in the future.
Because of the high-grade kamma that led to this birth, a tihetuka person is BORN with the necessary wisdom to comprehend Tilakkhana. Of course, one must make the effort.
On the other hand, an animal is in a very bad place. It is unable to do anything on making progress. It has to wait until a good kamma done in the past to come to the “front of the line” to get any kind of human birth. This is why births in the apayas make one helpless in the rebirth process. That is what is meant by anatta, becoming helpless.
Therefore, a human is better off with any type of birth than most living beings in other realms. We just need to do our best. Results WILL come according to the efforts.
More details at “Patisandhi Citta – How the Next Life is Determined According to Gati”
– I just revised that post.P.S. Each of levels ahetuka, dvihetuka, and tihetuka also can be sub-divided into three categories: low, medium, and high. For example, a tihetuka birth at the highest level has a much higher level of wisdom, etc.
“So I understand that the destination of a Sakadagami Anugami will be just the same as if he were a Sotapanna; that effort does not NECESSARILY translate into a better realm than the human one after death unless Sakadagami-hood is attained (for even Sotapannas MAY attain a deva existence – the difference of course being that for a Sakadagami that deva existence would be his last in the kamaloka)
Is this correct?”
Not really. The progress cannot be measured just in terms of “change of bhava”.
– One may have not reached the next destination, but one may have covered a significant portion of that distance. That is an analogy.Lang asked, “Is it correct to say that a Sotapanna Anugami is one who has attained sotapatti magga, and that a Sotapanna is one who has attained sotapatti phala?”
There is some confusion because of the terms used.
1. One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (one on the way to become a Sotapanna) when one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi, learns about the correct Tilakkhana, and has STARTED comprehending those Tilakkhana.
2. When that person makes progress in the comprehension of the “unfruitful nature of this world”, at some point he/she would complete that phase and actually become a Sotapanna.
– At that MOMENT, two CONSECUTIVE citta flow through his/her mind, the Sotapanna MAGGA CITTA, and the Sotapannna PHALA CITTA. At that INSTANT, he/she becomes a Sotapanna.The confusion comes when the difference between those two things is not understood.
This can be further clarified by the following. That Sotapanna does not necessarily become a Sakadagami Anugami UNTIL he/she keeps working towards the Sakadagami stage.
– Here, one does not even need to know that one has become a Sotapanna. As long as one is making an effort (viriya) on making progress, that person WILL BE a Sakadagami Anugami.
– Then one actually BECOMES a Sakadagami when one goes through the Sakadagami magga citta followed by the Sakadagami phala citta (that is a higher level of comprehending Tilakkhana).
– That is how there are EIGHT Noble Persons. Each Nibbanic stage (Sotapnna to Arahant) is associated with two “Noble Person states”.P.S. Just yesterday I revised the following relevant post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“
That just means a Sotapanna Anugami (or higher) will never lose the Ariya (Noble Person) status, Tobias.
Once born an Ariya (i.e., becomes a Sotapanna Anugami), one will not go back to an “average human” (puthujjana) status. That is why it is in quotes in “never “die”.
– Of course, there will likely be one up to many “physical deaths” until the Arahant stage is attained.
– But he/she is free of the apayas forever.
– Pu it in another way, one has removed the 10 types of miccha ditthi and has started seeing the anicca (and dukkha and anatta) nature of this world.” Are the internal rupa (pasada rupa) always ayatana even when just seeing an object (vipaka vinnana)?”
I was thinking about how to handle that. It is not a clear-cut issue and that is why I did not address it (I can write only so much in a given post). I will discuss this in more detail in the next post.
We can say for sure that an Arahant will use pasada rupa as indriya at ALL TIMES.
A normal human may or may not use a given indriya as ayatana. But it happens often. Furthermore, indriya becomes ayatana in varying degrees, depending on how strong the sensory attraction is.
– Even for the same external object, two people will “get attached” in different degrees. One may “fall in love” with a given woman, but another may just be attracted. A third person may not even be attracted. It is relative.
