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Christian is right.
What really matters is one’s state of mind. Whether there is another person affected or not, a mind defiled with greed, anger, or ignorance WILL lead to bad kamma vipaka.
– If another person is affected in some way, that just creates a “kammic connection” between the two, i.e., one will become indebted to the “wronged person”.The importance of the “state of mind” is in the first Dhammapada verse. The second part of the verse says:
“manasā cē padutthēna
bhāsati vā karoti vā
tatō nam dukkhamanvēti
cakkamva vahatō padam.Translated: “In the case of a defiled mind (acting with lōbha, dōsa, mōha), suffering will follow just as a wheel of a cart follows the footsteps of the ox pulling it (cakkamva vahatō padam).”
See, “Manōpubbangamā Dhammā..”
This is also what I will be discussing in detail in the new series: “Origin of Life”
P.S. If it is a past deed, I would not worry about it. We all have done many bad kamma in the past (especially in past lives). We should just focus on what is under our control: our future actions, speech, and thoughts.
1 user thanked author for this post.
I do understand why many people (not many at this forum), have a “mental block” on the following:
They think that Nibbana is the extinction of a “person”. P.S. That is a version of sakkaya ditthi. The wrong view of an “everlasting self” or “sassata ditthi” that I discussed in the new series on “Origin of Life”.
When one understands Paticca Samuppada (PS), one will realize that there is no such “unchanging person”. There are only causes and effects. Kamma vipaka are brought by past kamma AND conditions.
– Each good or bad life is the result of a past (good or bad) kamma.
– But the hard part is that until one comprehends that, there will always be the sanna of an “unchanging self” or a “soul” or an “atma” (in Hinduism).
– Each “person” is subjected to unimaginable suffering in the rebirth process due to this wrong view and wrong sanna.
– Hopefully, the new series on “Origin of Life” will help clarify this a bit more clearly.Also see, “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering“.
P.S.
– The key point, of course, is that there is really “no unchanging person”, as discussed in the above post. But, as long as one has sakkaya ditthi, one thinks there is such an “unchanging-self”.
– If one is reborn an animal, is that still the same “me”? Is it worthwhile to be born an animal?
– Think about the suffering of an animal. Other than domesticated animals, others suffer so much. A bird may appear to live an easy life. But a bird is in constant fear of being eaten. There are no “old animals” in the wild. As soon as they start approaching the old age, they get slow and are eaten. They get eaten alive!
– Of course, the suffering in the other three realms in the apayas can be much worse.Siebe wrote: “I have always understood Nibbana is asankhata. Does this not also mean that it has no beginning? It does not arise at any moment?”
I have also explained Nibbana as asankata. I stated above that it has a beginning, that it arises at the death of an Arahant. Why are you going in circles?
– Sankata means something prepared or something that arises due to causes. Any sankata arises due to lobha, dosa, moha and that is what we will be discussing in the new series on “Origin of Life”. That translates to something prepared with the four great elements.
– Anything that is prepared with the four great elements of patavi, apo, tejo, vayo (or atoms/molecules in modern science) come to existence, change during its existence, and eventually destroyed.
– That is what is stated in AN 3.47, “..arising of a sankata is evident, vanishing of a sankata is evident, and during its existence that sankata keeps changing”.
– Think about any sankata in this world: a tree, animal, human, Sun, Earth, etc. They all have those three characteristics. A tree comes to life as a little bud. It grows (i.e., changes). Then it dies. Let me know if you can name one thing in this world that does not have those three features.On the other hand, Nibbana is asankata. It does not arise due to causes. It is not prepared with atoms/molecules (or the four great elements) or anything else. It arises when all root causes are removed.
– When all sankata are stopped from arising, Nibbana results. Very simply, that means a life-stream will end. No more rebirths in this world.
– Nibbana has no ending. Therefore, it does not have those last two characteristics of a sankata. – But it has a beginning: the death of an Arahant. That life-stream ends and “full Nibbaba” or Parinibbana starts.Siebe asked: “does the concept of lifestream in essence not refer to PS?”
Why do you say that?
– A lifestream is a sankata, and any sankata can be explained in terms of (akusala-mula) Paticca Samuppada (PS).
– It is just that a beginning to the first step of a life-stream, “avijja paccaya sankhara” cannot be discerned, i.e., the beginning of any given life-stream (you or me or anyone else) cannot be discerned.
– As I have also explained, that is consistent with the Principle of Causality.Akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) leads to and sustains the continuation of a life-stream. When one existence ends, another starts. A given existence is called a sankata. For a life-stream, as soon as one existence (sankata) ends, another (sankata) starts. There is no end until Arahanthood is attained.
– Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) leads to Nibbana.y not wrote: “I have been trying to say is that the ‘Infinite Monkey Theorem’ does not hold. Just because there is an infinite time ahead available does not mean that a monkey will eventually hit all the right keys on a typewriter to produce the text of any given book, likewise a being does not of neccessity attain Nibbana in the infinite future..”
That is right.
By the way, you can find that thread by typing, “Infinite Monkey Theorem” in the Search box for the forum (not the at the main site Search box).Siebe asked: “has Nibbana a beginning?”
Yes. The full and complete Nibbana starts at the death of an Arahant (at Parinibbana). No more suffering forever after that.
y not wrote: “I was asking for Tipitaka reference that a being’s stay in sansara can last forever”.
One will stay in sansara until one attains Nibbana. We don’t need a Tipitaka reference to see that.
Think about this: We all have so far stayed in sansara for eternity since there is no logical beginning to life. Buddha himself tried to look back at a “beginning” but could not see. Of course, he was able to see “himself” getting “niyata vivarana” from Buddha Deepankara some trillions of years ago! See, “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“.
There are infinite beings trapped in sansara right now. In any future time, there will still be infinity of beings in sansara.
– Infinity minus infinity is still infinity!– Infinity is a very complex subject. Luckily, mathematicians have studied it in detail and have come to that last conclusion. See, “Infinity – How Big Is It?“.
That is why the Buddha advised not to think about such “imponderable issues”. Each person should be just focused on ending suffering. We have only a limited time in this life. We should spend that precious time on important things.
– One may question whether my recent posts on the origin of life are relevant to get rid of suffering. That broad picture or world view can help one get rid of the sakkaya ditthi.Siebe wrote: “So, how can a cognitive process ever refer to Nibbana?”
Who said that Nibbana (after Parinibbana) is a cognitive process?
– When Parinibbana (at the death of an Arahant) is attained, the cognitive processes (as we know it) ceases.
– Until then the cognitive process gets better as one gets to higher magga phala.The cognitive process in “this world” is associated with citta, cetasika, and rupa. All those cease to exist at Nibbana.
There are four ultimate realities: citta, cetasika, rupa, and Nibbana.
– The first three are associated with “this world”.
– When one transcends (overcome) this world, one gets to Nibbana, where there is no suffering.
– See, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhammā – Introduction“.y not wrote: “Every blade of grass eventually attains ‘Enlightenment’ “.
These Mahāyāna concepts are not worthy of discussion.
– There are totally inert things like rocks. There are living “things” like grass and plants. And there are living “beings” like animals and humans.Buddha Dhamma can explain the origin of living “things” and living “beings”. That is what we will discuss in detail in the new “Origin of Life” series.
P.S. Actually, Buddha Dhamma explains the origin of inert things too: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhātthaka“.
“Lal, do i understand you correct that you teach that Nibbana is something individual, personal and local?”
Nibbana is ragakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya.
That is what is in the Tipitaka and that is what I have explained.“It is just the cognitive proces (or mind) definitely freed from lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa and amoha?”
Yes.
“Why does a personal lifestream have no beginning? It is has an end why does it not have a beginning?”
I have explained in this post that according to the principle of Causality, there cannot be a beginning to life. The Buddha kept recalling his past lives and could not see a beginning.
What you say is exactly right.
This is why some people are unable to get the correct results by repeating the “rice experiment”:
“The Rice Experiment (Video)“.Experiments on inert matter (most scientific experiments belong to this category) can be correctly repeated by anyone. Those do not involve the “mental state” of the experimenter. Of course, the experimenter needs to competent in carrying out the steps involved.
But in the “rice experiment” or the “water experiment” that you referred to, the mental state of the experimenter plays a key role. One has to “put one’s mind into it”, rather than just following the necessary steps mechanically.
Our state of the mind CAN affect mindless things like rice, water, and plants. There is an interesting book, “The Secret Life of Plants” by P. Tompkins and C. Bird. They describe some interesting experiments with plants. But others have objected by saying that when they tried to repeat those experiments, they did not get the same results.
– That is because they were mechanically repeating the experiments, just like other scientific experiments.
– These experiments involve “mind power”.Siebe wrote: “The sutta’s also talk about: …” an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned” (Udana 8.3)
Does this not go against causality?”No. It does not. I have explained this before, but since this is very important, I will lay it out one more time. If there are any questions, please ask them now after reading the following carefully.
1. There are six causes for things to arise in this world: lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, adosa, amoha.
– Akusala kamma (immoral actions) done with lobha, dosa, moha give rise to births in the four lowest realms or apayas.
– Punna Kamma (moral deeds) done with alobha, adosa, amoha give rise to births in the human and higher (good) realms.
2. However, even births in good realms do not solve the problem of suffering, because based on one’s temptations, one could do kamma with lobha, dosa, moha and then be born in the apayas.
3. When one comprehends 1 and 2 above, one would have realized the anicca nature: That existence in any realm WILL NOT bring permanent happiness, or more correctly it will not REMOVE future suffering.
4. When one understands that, thereafter any punna kamma will automatically become KUSALA kammma.
– KUSALA kamma are better than PUNNA kamma. Instead of leading to rebirth in the good realms, they lead one to Nibbana.
– This is a point that is hard for many people to understand. With the comprehension of Tillakkhana (that anicca nature leads to dukkha, which in turn leads to anatta or helplessness), one AUTOMATICALLY does kamma without any (hidden) expectation of a “good return in terms of good birth”.
– That is because one has understood that even births in the good realms WILL NOT solve the problem of future suffering.5. When one proceeds this way, lobha, dosa, moha are removed in four stages: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
– By the time one gets to the Arahant stage, one has removed lobha, dosa, moha completely.
– By that time, one has also removed any contamination of alobha, adosa, amoha as well. That is because one would have seen the futility of getting births in those good realms also.6. Therefore, Nibbana (Arahanthood) is attained by REMOVING ALL SIX ROOT CAUSES.
– However, since an Arahant still has a live physical body, previous kamma vipaka can still result in bring bodily pains like injuries or body pains or sicknesses. However, any mental suffering would be gone.
– Then that Arahant attains Parinibbana (full Nibbaba) when the physical body dies at his death.
– AT that point, full Nibbana is realized and NO MORE SUFFERING will ever materialize.7. It is important to understand that Nibbana IS NOT REACHED due to causes. Nibbana is reached when all six root causes are REMOVED.
– That is what is meant by asankata, unborn, unmade, unconditioned, etc. for Nibbana.
– On the other hand sankata (things in this world) arise due to those six causes. Words like born, made, conditioned, are associated with sankata.So, it is very important to understand the difference between punna kamma and kusala kamma.
– Until one comprehends the anicca nature, all moral deeds are just PUNNA kamma. After comprehension of Tilakkhana, any moral deeds will automatically be KUSALA kamma.
See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma“.
P.S. Today, I re-wrote the above post.Hi Tobias,
Of course, those who believe in a cReator think that a “First Cause” is necessary.
But that idea of a “First Cause” is not an accepted theory or principle. It is made up by those believers! As I explained, it runs against the Principle of Causality. That is the point.
P.S. Please post a link a to the relevant post at puredhamma.net. Here the post in question is: “Wrong View of Creationism (and Eternal Future Life) – Part 2“.
Also, the title of the post should be started with “Post on xxxxx”. Otherwise, there could be problems with the search box. I have changed the topic of this thread so that it will be clear.
Thanks for the video.
Yes. There are some indications that the Big Bang theory could be wrong. There is some evidence of stars older than the Big Bang:
“Big Bang Theory Questioned As Star Older Than Universe Discovered”
“Strange ‘Methuselah’ Star Looks Older Than the Universe”
“The Greatest Cosmic Puzzle: Astronomers Find Stars That Appear Older Than The Universe”
The bottom line is that life has existed forever. There is no traceable “beginning” to life. They will have to discard the Big Bang theory sooner or later.
This is actually a collection of verses from several different sources.
The first verse is from the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta (DN 16):
“Aniccā vata sankhārā
Uppāda vaya dhamminō
Uuppajjitvā nirujjhanti
Te san vūpa samō sukhō”I have explained this verse to have a bit different meaning here: “Aniccā vata Sankhārā…“.
The next two verses are Dhammapada verses 153 and 154.
The three verses after that are Dhammapada verses 277 through 279. There was a discussion about “sabbe sankhara” at the forum: “Sabbe Sankhara“.
I will try to translate those in the future when I have time. I am not sure where the last few verses are from.
It is interesting to see the difference in the recital of the first verse by Goenka and Waharaka Thero (in my post).
Hello Invo,
Welcome to the forum!
Thank you for your kind words. Looking forward to having fruitful discussions.
With metta, Lal
Lang wrote, “In the example of seeing the tree, I used to think of the tree as a vanna rupa.”
You are not alone in that, Lang. Many people have that misconception.
“Instead of a tree, let’s say it is a very attractive, enticing object. If I remember correctly from the Abhidhamma section, then the cakkhudvara citta vithi from seeing that object is followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. Does the samphassa happen in those three manodvara citta vithi?”
Every time a pancadvara citta vithi runs, three manodvara citta vithi will run following that.
– Samphassa happens in the first pancadvara citta vithi and will also be there in the additional manodvara citta vithi.“..then for an arahant, are there still 3 (pure) manodvara citta vithi following the cakkhudvara citta vithi, or are there no manodvara citta vithi following it at all?”
Yes. Even for an Arahant, the sequence is the same. But without any samphassa.
– This has to do with the fact that an Arahant will also engage in “neutral activities” like walking, eating, etc. It is just that no abhisankhara will be generated.Tobias asked: “What rupa are experienced by a gandhabba when he/she is in paraloka or by a deva or a brahma? There is no brain to produce vanna, sadda, rasa, ghanda, pottabba rupa.”
Gandhabba does not need eyes/brain and ears/brain to see and hear. Like for brahmas, they can see and hear at long distances without eyes/ears. See, “Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya“.
– However, gandhabba can “absorb” scents and can get a bit denser. The word gandhabba comes from “gandha + abba” or “taking in aroma/scents”.Tobias asked: “As I understand all rupa are made of the 4 great elements. Thus even vanna rupa and also cakkhu rupa are made of these 4 great elements. What determines a cakkhu rupa or what is the “addon” here compared to e.g. a photon?”
– That is the difference between a live being and an inert object. Live beings have hadaya vatthu and a number of pasada rupa (five for humans to zero pasada rupa for the arupavacara brahmas).
– In other words, a living being ALWAYS has a hadaya vatthu to generate thoughts (citta). The only exception is the asanna realm. An asanna being does not generate thoughts, and the fine rupa is maintained by kammic energy.
– This can be easily seen when a human or an animal dies; their mental body with hadaya vatthu gets separated from the dead body, and a dead body is inert just like wood or stone.
– By the way, when the mental body of a yogi comes out of his physical body (say during astral travel), it is still connected to the physical body via kammic energy. That is why that physical body will still have body heat. Of course, at his death, the mental body would be separated and the dead body will get cold.
P.S. In a dead body, there are physical eyes but no mental body with cakkhu pasada rupa.
