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Puthujjana wrote: “The training rule on telling truthfully :
‘If a monk truthfully tells a person who is not fully ordained of a superhuman quality, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”
There is no offense: if he truthfully tells one who is fully ordained; if he is the first offender.”That is not my translation. I can only speak for what I wrote.
My comment on y not’s post was to thank him for the reference and to put in the link correctly. That does not mean I agree with that translation.
I can say without any doubt that “anupasampannassa” DOES NOT mean “truthfully”.
Thanks for the reference, y not.
Your linking did not work, though. So, I put in the link.Here is the way to add a link: (from: “How to Reply to a Forum Question“):
3. In particular, it is good to use the “link” button to provide a link to another post or even external links. In order to describe the procedure, let us assume that you want to provide a link to the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post at the website.
– Open that post in a separate window.
– Copy the title of the post (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and paste in the text you are writing.
– Select that text with the title (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and click the “link” button. It will open a new window to put in the web address.
– Go to that other open window with the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post and copy the web address from that web page (which in this case is https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/abhidhamma-introduction/”).
– Come back and paste that to provide the link at the URL input.
– You can also check the little box “Open link in a new tab”, so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.4. Follow the same procedure to provide an external link.
Puthujjana wrote: “pācittiya 8:
“yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ āroceyya, bhūtasmiṃ pācittiyaṃ.”Uttarimanussadhamma does mean magga phala or jhana.
Āroceyya means “announced”.But the key is the word “anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ” which means a bhikkhu who has NOT attained those claimed attainments.
– To declare an attainment falsely is an offense.
– Anupasampannassa comes from “na + upasampannassa” or “not attained”, just like Anāgāmi comes from “na + āgāmi” or “not coming back (to kāma loka)”.The following verse is in many suttas, including SN 55. 8, SN 55.10, SN 12.42, AN 9.27, ..
For example, in AN 9.27, the last verse is: “Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṃ byākareyya: ‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti.ākaṅkhamāno means “if one wishes”
Byākareyya means to “state’ or “say”.
“attanāva attānaṃ” means “one about oneself”. In other words, he/she can declare only about what he/she has attained.Thus the above verse can be translated: “ when a Noble Disciple has removed the five types of bhaya (dangers) and is endowed with these four factors of stream-entry, then if he wishes he may state about himself: ‘I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of niraya, animal realm, etc and headed for the Arahanthood!’”
However, only a Buddha is able to perceive the specific attainments of others.
Puthujjana wrote: “How can a puthujjana know who is an Ariya? As monastic is not allow to reveal their attainment to a lay puthujjana.”
That is not correct. There are several suttas that clearly state one could declare the magga phala attainments. One is the Maha Parinibbana Sutta (DN 16). It is at the end of the following section of this long sutta, specifically regarding the Sotapanna stage:
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/dn16#14Also, there was a long discussion on this topic sometime back:
“Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“Puthujjana wrote: “Not annihilation, so does that means that there are still “something” exists after an Arahant had passed away?”
The correct way to think about a “living being” is not think as an ever present “person”, but as a collection of five aggregates that keeps changing even moment-to-moment. It is a good idea to take time and slowly re-read the full post again and again.
For an unfathomable time, we all have evolved without a pause. Even in the present life we evolved from a tiny cell in mother’s womb to the present dense body.
– Before that our five aggregates evolved as devas, brahmas, animals, petas, etc. There was no “identity” as “person X”.
– Even in this life, we do not look or think like the same “person” a few years ago.This of course takes a lot of contemplation to fully understand. That is why becoming a Sotapanna is not so easy. The Buddha, upon attaining the Buddhahood, realized how hard would it be for normal humans to comprehend his deep Dhamma.
– But it can be done, and it is a gradual process, as explained in the post that I mentioned earlier: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.Going back to your question of “Not annihilation, so does that means that there are still “something” exists after an Arahant had passed away?”
It may become clear by realizing that Nibbana and the “this world of 31 realms” are what are called “mututally exclusive”, i.e., “either here or there”. If one is a living being in this world, he/she has not yet “merged with Nibbana”. Even an Arahant has not reached “Parinibbana” or “full Nibbaba” until the death of the physical body.
– Once merged with Nibbana, there is no trace of that lifestream in “this world of 31 realms”.Another way to say it: “This world of 31 realms” has citta, cetasika, and rupa as paramatta Dhamma. They are arise via the Paticca Samuppada process.
– Nibbana is the “state” that is reached when all those are stopped from arising. There are no citta, cetasika, rupa “in Nibbana”.“ālaya” means to get attracted to something/someone.
– “Analayo” means removal all attachments.“Mutti” is freedom, similar to vimutti.
From the “Khandha Sutta (SN 56.13)“: “Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhanirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ? Yo tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodho cāgo paṭinissaggo mutti anālayo—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhanirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ“.
Translated: “And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the remainder-less fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up, breaking bonds, freedom with the removal of all attachments. This is called the noble truth of the cessation of suffering”.
Regarding the questions:
“Questions:
1. In relationship to the objects/bhava/or antarbhava(?) that is being craved…is one of the steps towards nirodha actually recognizing(through meditation) the “timeless” space where my self-concept, rajasic energy, things “moving” becomes CUT?2. I’ve always assumed but now i’m asking…mutti and the entire “entanglement” language even the “endless knot” of buddhism actually has to do with the gandhabbaya right? It’s the gandhabbaya that is entangled through the various citta vritti and karmic patterns leading to our asavas > anusayas?”
Losing attachment (analayo) means losing to attachment to the five aggregates of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana (that means basically losing attachment to everything in this world, which is accomplished only at the Arahant stage). Then one becomes free (mutti).
– See the post that I published today: “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering“.Good reference, Puthujjana.
However, getting rid of kama raga comes at the Anagami stage.
Before that one needs to get rid of sakkaya ditthi (topic of this discussion) together with vicikicca and silabbata paramasa: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.
I have been trying to publish a post on the topic, but having some issues at the web host. Hopefully I will be able to publish it today.
The other key point is regarding the fear that many people have for “annihilation” by attaining Nibbana.
Conventionally, we say that an Arahant is not reborn after death. That sounds scary for many: “Why do I want to be annihilated?”.
– But the point is that there was no “enduring entity” to be annihilated!Think about it this way: Suppose your name is John in this life. You die and are reborn a deva. Then you live that life and reborn an animal, etc.
– When you are a deva , you are not John. When you are born an animal, you are not that John either.Furthermore, that John will be born many more times in the four lower realms than in human or higher realms. Thus that “lifestream” is subjected to much suffering than pleasures in the long run; see, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
The best way to look at this is to say ANY AND ALL future suffering will be stopped at the death of an Arahant. Of course, MOST future suffering would be stopped after the Sotapanna stage.
Yes, y not. What you stated above is correct.
As one’s understanding of the Four Noble Truths and Tilakkhana grows, one’s punna kamma will automatically become kusala kamma. So, one should just keep doing punna/kusala kamma and not worry so much about which category they actually belong to.
Welcome to the forum, puthujjana!
I think you brought out a key point.
Siebe says: “The most obvious views for me are full identification…”i am rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana”.”
This is correct. The five aggregates (khandhas) is all “a person” is defined by.
However, the key is to understand that “that person” does not have control over them.
All those arise according to Paticca Samuppada (PS), starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara”.
– You can verify that all those five are in the PS cycle. One’s own body (part of the rupa aggregate) arises via the “bhava paccya jati” step.As long as one acts with avijja (i.e., without the comprehension of Four Noble Truths and Tilakkhana), one will keep generating those five aggregates and be subjected to suffering.
– The problem is that we are blinded by intermittent bouts of pleasure (especially when born in the good realms).
– When one is born in “bad realms” (like the animal realm), one can experience the harsh sufferings, but then one is not CAPABLE of tackling the problem.
– That is why we are trapped in this suffering-filled rebirth process.This is also why the Buddha said that there is no “self” who has CONTROL over the five aggregates (khandhas).
– When one acts with avijja, the five aggregates arise automatically, based on the PS cycle.The only way to get out of this is to cultivate panna (wisdom) by following the Noble Path.
– When one starts acting with wisdom, one will be following the “Kusala-mula PS process” that will lead to eventual liberation from any suffering.
– The first step is to stop births in the apayas where the suffering is worst, and that is accomplished by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi and becoming a Sotapanna.
– Put it in another way: five aggregates corresponding to animal or other lower realms would not arise via the PS process after one becomes a Sotapanna.This is a deep point that needs to be thought about carefully. I am still working on my promised post on Sakkaya Ditthi; I am thinking about how to express this as simply as possible.
It would be fruitful to focus on this point.
Siebe wrote: “By the way Nanamoli translated anatta as not-self, anicca as impermanence and dukkha as pain.”
Those are very bad translations: “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“
Christian,
Please provide a link to the Pali version when you refer to a sutta.I looked up AN 7.66 and get a different sutta: Sattasūriya sutta (AN 7.66)
P.S.
Also, please don’t copy and paste whole suttas if they are long. Just paste the relevant part and explain why it is important (if needed).Good point.
However, all sankhara are anicca: “Sabbe sankhāra aniccā“.
Even though citta sankhara (same as mano sankhara) cannot lead to rebirth, they are still anicca. Even an Arahant would generate all three types of sankhara to live in this world until the death of the physical body. All sankhara are stopped only at Parinibbana.
– Such sankhara without kammic energy are called kiriya (just actions) too.
